Talk:Israel/Israel and the Occupied Territories-2

Parliamentary democracy or Jewish state?
My proposed changes:

It is a parliamentary democracy with a predominantly Jewish population and a large non-Jewish minority

to:

It is a Jewish state with a predominantly Jewish population and a large non-Jewish minority

This is because:


 * 1) Israel does not give equal rights to all its citizens.
 * 2) Israel does not have a constitution
 * 3) Countries aren't categorized as democracies or not. Instead you try to measure how the citizens are treated. What is a democracy is subjective.
 * 4) Therefore it is disputed whether Israel is a democracy or not.
 * 5) Israel is a Jewish State.
 * 6) The Knesset has many times reaffirmed that Israel is a Jewish state with a Jewish character, and the homeland of all Jews. Note: not the homeland to all its citizens... just the jews.
 * 7) It is not disputed that Israel is a Jewish state.

Israel is a parliamentary democracy, not all democracies have formal written constitutions, Israel gives equal rights to all its citizens, this has been ironed out in Talk: before, please view it. Jayjg 03:09, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

--- FWIW, England, home to "the Mother of Parliaments", long had no official, written constitution and, even today, has only an "uncodified" one. czrisher 25 Oct 2004

Do you mean this page ? I can't see an ironing in that page. States with constiutions are in general, more democratic than states without. But that is beyond the point because an encyclopaedia shouldn't label countries as democratic or not democratic. Palestine-info 14:17, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Have you abandoned your previous claims then? Democracies without written constitutions are no more or less "democratic" than other democracies. Democracies are pretty easy to define, and Wikipedia does indeed label countries as such; see, for example, France. Jayjg 08:36, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What previous claim are you talking about? My stance is very clear and you can read it in the two previous paragraphs above written by me. You are making two assertions without backing either one up. The latter one is the one that is relevant to this discussion. You are claiming that "Democracies are pretty easy to define" but you do not mention how you define democracies. I think you should do it since it is "pretty easy". Wikipedia does indeed label atleast two countries as democracies - France and Israel. Those labellings are errors and should be corrected. I also note that neither Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Italy, Ireland, Luxembourg, Norway or Sweden are labelled as democracies in their respective articles. Palestine-info 13:10, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * You gave a list of 7 or so claims above, and you haven't proven any. Wikipedia has an article which defines democracy, and the introduction links to it.  Your view that these labels "are errors" is interesting, but not proven.  Israel is indeed a parliamentary democracy, which is its form of government; see, for example the CIA factbook's designation as a "parliamentary democracy" . Jayjg 15:27, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

First question: What is a democracy? Answer: Quoting from Democracy


 * "Modern democracy can be characterized by the following institutions:


 * A constitution which limits the powers and controls the formal operation of government, whether written, unwritten or a combination of the two.
 * Election of public officials, conducted in a free and just manner
 * The right to vote and to stand for election (also see Universal suffrage)
 * Freedom of expression (speech, assembly, etc.)
 * Freedom of the press and access to alternative information sources
 * Freedom of association
 * Equality before the law and due process under the rule of law
 * Educated citizens, knowledgeable of the issues of the day, and informed of their rights and civic responsibilities"

Israel fails some of these and passes through some of the others. Note that the article says democracy can be characterized, not that the list lists the exact criteria for what is democracy. But that's old and it feels like I've repeated it a million times now.


 * Which ones do you think it fails? Jayjg 02:29, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Second question: Even if we assume that the above listed attributes are an exact definition of democracy, would Israel qualify? Anser: NO

See (lists Israel 42 in democratic rights).


 * Actually, it proves the opposite. Greece is listed at 43; is Greece now a monarchy?  Dictatorship?  India, often call "the world's largest democracy"  ranks 56. Jayjg 02:49, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Or see. Or read my selected quotes from that page:


 * "Israel is mainly a formal democracy that has not yet acquired the characteristics of a substantive democracy."


 * "Protection of human rights in Israel is poor; there is serious political and economic discrimination against the Arab minority; there is much less freedom of religion than in other democracies; and the socioeconomic inequality indicator is among the highest in the sample."


 * Your link again proves that Israel is a democracy, and your selected quotes are misleading; reading the full pages indicates that Israel ranks better than most democracies in some areas, worse in others. More important, the page is a comparison of Israel against "thirty-five other democracies"; none of these democracies scores perfectly in all the indicator areas, or even close to it.  Here's a more relevant quote:
 * "Entitled The Democracy Index, this study consists of two parts: a long-term and comparative study of some thirty-one indicators measuring Israeli democracy against that of thirty-five other democracies, and a public opinion survey reflecting how Israelis view their democracy." Jayjg 02:49, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

More: ,
 * Snort. Did you read the opinion piece?  It doesn't say Israel is not a democracy, it says it will eventually have to choose between staying a democracy, as it currently is, and staying a Jewish state. Jayjg 02:49, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * LOL! Did you read this one?  The author is saying Israel is no longer a democracy because it may have made various secret deals. Jayjg 02:49, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If you did mean that Israel is a democracy because you can vote in Israel. Then yes, you are right, many people can vote in Israel. But more is required than voting for democracy. Btw, it is funny that you mention CIA World Factbook as a reference for your statement "Israel is a democracy" but then in a few paragraphs below reject it when it calls the Occupied Territories "Israeli-occupied". Just for fun, can you find some other pages than the World Factbook that label Israel as a democracy? Palestine-info 01:26, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Sure, how many do you need?       etc.  There are hundreds more. Jayjg 02:49, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Israel is mainly a formal democracy that has not yet acquired the characteristics of a substantive democracy." If the Israeli Democracy Institute writes that, then there as to be something behind it. It proves that it is not widely agreed that Israel is a democracy. Palestine-info 06:03, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * We've been thought this nonsense already, and it's been responded to above. I'll repeat:
 * Your link again proves that Israel is a democracy, and your selected quotes are misleading; reading the full pages indicates that Israel ranks better than most democracies in some areas, worse in others. More important, the page is a comparison of Israel against "thirty-five other democracies"; none of these democracies scores perfectly in all the indicator areas, or even close to it.  Here's a more relevant quote:
 * "Entitled The Democracy Index, this study consists of two parts: a long-term and comparative study of some thirty-one indicators measuring Israeli democracy against that of thirty-five other democracies, and a public opinion survey reflecting how Israelis view their democracy."
 * Even the Israeli Democracy institute considers Israel to be a democracy. Israel is a parliamentary democracy, and there are dozens of references which back me up on that. Jayjg 16:48, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * While it is clearly a border-line liberal democracy (which accounts for its rating on the index), I ultimately agree that the term should be retained. El_C

Israel's borders
My proposed changes:

Israel shares the coastlines of the Mediterranean, the Gulf of Eilat / Aqaba, and the Dead Sea.

to:

Israel shares the coastlines of the Mediterranean, the Gulf of Aqaba / Eliat, Lake Tiberias and the Dead Sea.

This is because:


 * 1) Gulf of Aqaba is commonly referred to as Gulf of Aqaba.. not Gulf of Eliat.
 * 2) The eastern shore of Lake Tiberias is in the Golan Heights. The only one who thinks the Golan Heights is Israel, is Israel.

Israel has annexed the Golan Heights, regardless of whether or not others approve. The facts on the ground are that Lake Tiberias is currently not a border. Jayjg 03:10, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Since the UN consider the Golan Heights occupied, we should too. If we consider the Golan Heights occupied (as we should) then there IS a water-border on the east coast of Lake Tiberias. But the dead sea and Lake Tiberias are lakes so my new proposal.

to:

Israel has a large coastline in the Mediterranean and a small one in the Gulf of Aqaba.

Palestine-info 14:30, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Tangential discussion moved to User talk:Palestine-info