Talk:Israel/Israel and the Occupied Territories-5

Expulsion
My proposed changes:

the rest having fled prior to and during the war.

To:

the rest fled or was forced to leave by the Israeli forces prior to and during the war.

The fact that a large minority of the Palestinian refugees was forced out should be mentioned. Since many didn't flee.


 * "the rest fled or were encouraged to leave by the Israeli forces prior to and during the war." - they weren't physically forced over the borders. Jayjg 03:21, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC) - Actually, the original formulation is better. Jayjg 17:53, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Please source that. There are hundreds of primary source documents and dozens of books that describe expulsions carried out by the Israeli forces. Lydda and Ramle should be enough. Palestine-info 08:58, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * And, as you surely know, others were encouraged to leave by Arab leadership, or were even encouraged to stay by Israel leadership. A much more complex situation than your formulation. The original wording is actually better, since it actually covers all these situations. Jayjg 17:53, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Palestinian civilians were terrorized by Jewish gangs committing atrocities in Palestine during 1948. That's why many fled for their lives. Alberuni 19:05, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * "In order to push the unarmed defenseless Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes. Jewish terrorist groups such as Irgun Zwei Leumi were brought in when other methods failed. On 9th April 1948, the Irgun Zwei Leumi led by Menachem Beigin, a former Israeli Cabinet Minister and former leader of the Opposition in the Israeli Parliament, attacked the small Arab village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem. An account of this barbaric massacre was given by Jacques de Reynier, the Chief Delegate of the International Red Cross, who was able to reach the village and witness the aftermath of the massacre: "Three hundred persons" he said, "were massacred ... without any military reason or provocation of any kind; old men women, children, newly-born were savagely murdered with grenades and knives by Jewish troops of the Irgun, entirely under the control of their chiefs."


 * The objective behind the Deir Yassin massacre was to terrify the Arab civilian population, and force them to flee to secure for the Zionists the land without the people. The plan succeeded and they fled in terror, to save their lives. Before May 15th, 1948, while the British Government was still responsible, the Jews had occupied many purely Arab cities like Jaffa and Acre and scores of villages that were in the territory assigned by the U.N. Resolution for the Arab State and evicted more than 300,000 inhabitants from their homes. In an attempt to stem this tide, the neighboring Arab states sent their armies on 15th May 1948 into Palestine. On 15th July 1948 the U.N. imposed a final truce between Israel and the Arabs, by which time Israel had occupied an even larger part of the territory allotted to the Arab State in Palestine."


 * Yes, that was one incident, probably the worst of a small number of incidents. However, a massacre is not an expulsion, and as I said above, in other areas there was incidents of the exact opposite nature, where Arabs were encouraged to stay, or encouraged to leave by Arab leaders.  The original wording covers all these situations, and related articles give more detail. Jayjg 07:16, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A large part of the Palestinian refugees was actually forced over the borders at gunpoint:

"Israeli historian Benny Morris has identified 34 Arab communities whose inhabitants were ousted."

. That number comes from the book The Birth of the Palestine Refugee Problem. Then later in the book The War for Palestine: Rewriting the History of 1948 p.49, Benny Morris writes:

"The departure of Arab communities from some sites, departures that were described in The Birth as due to fear or IDF military attack or were simply unexplained, now appear to have been tinged if not characterized by Haganah or IDF expulsion orders and actions (for example, Ein Hod neir Haifa and Isdud, today's Ashdod, near Ashkelon). This means that the proportion of the 700,000 Arabs who took to the roads as a result of expulsions rather than as a result of straightforward military attack or fear of attacks, etc. is greater than indicated in The Birth."

It is therefore clear that direct expulsions accounted for a significant amount of the Palestinian refugee flight in 1948. Palestine-info 08:32, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * And much of what Benny claims has been debunked by still other historians who examined his work and sources. By the way, Benny has recently stated that the majority of Palestinians never left Palestine, so they don't qualify as "refugees" at all.  How does that fit into your thesis? Jayjg 13:07, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Reentry/Return
My proposed changes:

When Israel refused their reentryhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Watchlist My watchlist

To:

When Israel refused their return

Tourists reenter, inhabitants return.


 * "When Israel did not allow most of them to return". Some were allowed to return. Jayjg 03:22, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Again, we need a source for that. Palestine-info 09:01, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I was wrong. However, the situation was more complex than "Israel refused their re-entry"; in 1949, Israel offered to allow families that had been separated during the war to return, to release refugee accounts frozen in Israeli banks (eventually released in 1953), to pay compensation for abandoned lands and to repatriate 100,000 refugees. The Arabs rejected these offers, as they were unwilling to take any action that might be construed as recognition of Israel, and made repatriation a precondition for negotiations, something Israel rejected. The impasse was not resolved, and no refugees were permitted to return. Jayjg 17:49, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually I was right, as many as 35,000 were allowed to return. Jayjg 20:08, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

More refugees
My proposed changes:

see Palestinian Exodus for a discussion of the circumstances.

To:

see Palestinian Exodus for a discussion of the circumstances. Today they descendants live in refugee camps surrounding Israel and still pledge for their return.

Mentioning were the refugees went is important. In NO place, in this consensus article, is it mentioned that two groups both claim Israel/Palestine as their home. That is an important fact to mention.


 * "Many of their descendants live in refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, or surrounding Arab countries, and claim a right of return". Jayjg 03:25, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Blub about the Suez War
My proposed addition:

In 1956, in a joint operation Britain, France and Israel attacked Egypt because the latter had nationalized the Suez Canal. Egypt swiftly lost the war and was forced to open the canal to Israeli shipping and was forbidden from keeping troops in the Sinai.

Since Israel's pretext for declaring war with Egypt, was that Egypt canceled the "rights" Israel had won with violence in 1956, I think mentioning that war is important.


 * Have a look at this: Jayjg 03:27, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)