Talk:Isru chag

Isra or Isru
I'm confused. Is this Isra Chag or Isru Chag?

--Sophroniscus 20:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It's "Isru". Short and sweet.  :-)  And I fixed it in the article. Tom e rtalk  22:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Sukoth and Isru Chag
Does anyone know of a source that clarifies the relationship between Isru Chagh and Sukoth as opposed to between Isru Chagh and 8 Atzereth&|Simchath Torah? Tom e rtalk 22:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Tomer: Sukkot does not have "Isru Chag" in the technical sense because the last day of Sukkot is Hoshanah Rabbah -- a half-festival in its own right, as per the added tefilot and the added hoshanot and it being the last day of welcoming the Sukkah Ushpizzin -- which is followed immediately by the day of Shemini Atzeret, which even though it (Shemini Atzeret) follows Sukkot's seven days, it is a full festival in its own right (in this manner, it is in fact compared to Shavuot by some scholars.) The term and notion of "Isru Chag" refers to that day that follows the very last day of the festival of Sukkot/Shemini Atzeret as well as following Pesach, with differences between how it's "observed" in Israel and outside of Israel. In Israel, Shemini Atzeret and Simchat Torah are (on) the same day, so the day after is Isru Chag, but while it is Isru Chag in Israel, it is Simchat Torah outside of Israel because Simchat Torah is considered to be the "second day" (Yom Tov Sheni Shel Galuyot) of Shemini Atzeret (hence, the kiddush for Simchat Torah is the same as for Shemin Atzeret), and thus only the day after Simchat Torah is thus called Isru Chag outside of Israel. However, please note, that in a non-technical way of talking, people do refer to "Isru Chag of Sukkot" but what they are talking about really is the day after Shemini Atzeret. This is part of a general "common association" of Sukkot with Shemini Atzeret, but in actuality they are two entirely separate festivals. Do you need a "source" for that? Well, we need to look in the Shulkhan Arukh, but remember the Shulkhan Arukh was not written for the Reform and Conservative movement, and the Reform movement does not observe the second day of any Yom Tov (do they even know what Shemin Atzeret is?, and it's highly doubtful that Reform Jews have even heard of "Isru what?") Anyhow, User:redaktor is 100% correct in this case. What are you basing yourself on? (Strike my last sentence. Can't pick sides. Needs clarification.) IZAK 08:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * IZAK, I think you're confusing the conflict I'm having with Redaktor with the question I asked here...the two are, in fact, separate issues. My question here was a rather pedantic one since Isru Chagh is always said to be "the day following shelosheth haregalim", but shemini atzereth isn't technically one of the three, it just happens to be tacked on directly after sukkoth.  As for what the Reform and Conservative movements do or know, I neither care nor know...afatlik (as far as the little I know) nothing has come from any of their "scholars" that would even begin to address this topic... The only question I asked here was where it covers I"C following 8"A rather than following Sukoth and therefore being the same day as 8"A.  I know it sounds pedantic or maybe even just a little bit dumb, but I was given to wonder about it yesterday so I thought I'd ask...  For another issue of the same sort that came up yesterday, see Talk:List of kosher animals.  I'll ask the question relevant to the conflict Redaktor and I are having in another section of this talk page, below.  Cheers, Tom e rtalk  18:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Shemini Atzereth and Isru Chagh
User:Redaktor and I are having a dispute about whether or not Shemini Atzereth should or should not be listed as a "related day" in the infobox for Isru Chagh. I am arguing that it should, since Isru Chagh falls the day after Shemini Atzereth in Israel, he is arguing that since Isru Chagh falls the day after Simchath Torah in chu"l, that mention of Shemini Atzereth is imprecise. The issue has now become whether or not Shemini Atzereth is celebrated in chu"l for one day or two, and now User:Redaktor, claiming it is only for one, has changed the Shemini Atzereth article to reflect his view...and believing himself to be infallible, has declared that he need not cite sources to substantiate his viewpoint. I fully concede that nobody calls Simchath Torah "the second day of Shemini Atzereth", but the fact remains that that is what it is...and that therefore Redaktor's misbegotten alterations to Shemini Atzereth should be rolled back, and that Shemini Atzereth should be mentioned in the Isru Chagh infobox bli qualification, although a note regarding the fact that it is, in fact, the day after Simchath Torah bachu"l will be fine, either as a footnote in the infobox, or as either a full sentence or footnote to the article. Tom e rtalk  18:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * By means of clarification, I don't have a problem with Redaktor's providing sources, what I have a problem with is his rewording things to try to appear to support his viewpoint, and making the language more confusing than it was to begin with. Tom e rtalk  22:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Personal attacks are not called for. I neither claim infallibilty, nor do I gainsay the need for sources. Indeed have supplied the sources for the Shmini Atzeret article, which was lacking in them. I have deleted some text in that article, not to support my 'viewpoint' (I do not have a point of vierw on this factual subject), but because I can find no source for them. Please find sources to support your statements.
 * Writing that Isru Chag is the day after Shmini Atzeret is true where one day is kept and false throughout most of the world. Writing that Isru Chag is the day after Simchat Torah is true everywhere. Surely the statement that is true everywhere is preferable.--Redaktor 23:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I did not attack you. On your talkpage you have declined to supply sources indicating that Shemini Atzereth is magically only one day bachu"l, claiming, essentially, that it can't be 2 days since that would mean the 8th day of assembly is 2 days long.  The fact remains that Shemini Atzereth is two days long bachu"l (you should be familiar with the concept of יום טוב שני של גלויות), and that Simchath Torah is only celebrated on the 2nd because it's not a Torah holiday...and therefore Isru Chagh is related to both holidays because Simchath Torah is celebrated on the last day of Shemini Atzereth bachu"l and ba'aretz.  The only reason they're different days bachu"l from ba'aretz is bcz ח'"א is two days בח"ל, instead of just one.  Tom e rtalk  23:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The references for Shmini Atzeret are on the article page. The 8th day is called Shmini Atzeret. The 9th day is not called Shmini Atzeret (unless you can find me a source to the contrary).--Redaktor 18:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You're talking in circles. The 9th day is Shemini Atzereth, regardless of what it's called; Simchath Torah bachu"l is the 2nd day of Shemini Atzereth, whether or not you realize it, and completely irrespective of whether or not you like it.  Tom e rtalk  20:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

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