Talk:Issei Sagawa

Letters
I agree, I don't think these letters should be posted on wikipedia. There isn't crazy anal 10 megapixel porn on the Pornography article, so why do these articles need just as questionable material on them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JE (talk • contribs) 2005 May 19 18:32:12(UTC)


 * Actually, a 10Mpx picture in the Pornography article arguably would do a lot more to improve its quality than the picture in Vitrectomy does for that article, or the one proposed for improvised explosive device. It would usefully illustrate the subject matter in an NPOV fashion. But there is a lot more hesitancy to put sexually explicit images on WP than to put blood/gore/etc. on it; not sure whether this has anything to do with Florida state law or something, since that applies as the community standard here, by law. Zuiram 13:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The letters are a detailed discussion of the issue in the way that anal porn on the pornography article would not be. Perhaps it would be better to summerize and digest the material and make it more encyclopedic, but it would be a step downhill to just delete the material without having first done that. --Prosfilaes 00:35, 20 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't the letter be put on Wikisource? --201.8.9.177 04:08, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * As source material, it probably should. Zuiram 13:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The letter is important. Keeping it away from wikipedia won't keep people from reading it. If keeping information away or hidden is so important, people should be forbidden to read at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.171.190.84 (talk • contribs) 2005 Jul 03 03:44:10(UTC)


 * What an absurd argument! Keeping away pictures of child molestation won't keep people from looking at them either. Should we add pictures of child molestation on Wikipedia as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pinneco (talk • contribs) 2005 Dec 03 00:48:56(UTC)


 * It may appear to be absurd to you, but it really isn't. And your argumentation is just a variation on the theme of reductio ad hitlerum, bordering on ad hominem; that makes it a better candidate for an absurd argument. For that matter, yes, we should add those pictures if Wikipedia is moved outside Florida. See my later comment. Zuiram 13:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It should be accessible somehow, definitely. Linked or included. Is it made public domain by mr. Sagawa? Of course, I don't particularly mind the inclusion of pornographic content in Wikipedia should there be a good reason for it to exist here. Why not? It's not like we're about to remove entries on Darwinism on the grounds that someone considers it a depraved tool for excitement of the masses, eh. --194.89.2.218 21:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


 * What? Are you saying we should put child porn on wikipedia or were you referring to the letter?145.97.225.227 00:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The letter should be included, as it is highly relevant to the article at hand.
 * Also, yes, child porn would be proper illustration for the articles about it. Entirely in line with current policy, but will not happen, because of two things: (a) Florida law prohibits it, and WP is hosted in Florida, and (b) Wikipedia is censored according to its own community standards, which are driven by people defending any kind of material under the baner "does not censor" until it is related to sex, at which point they promptly censor it. See the Female genital cutting article for reference, in which a clearly illustrative picture, donated to Wikipedia by an organization working to heighten awareness of the problem, has been added to every Wikipedia version except the English one.
 * Note that I am not defending child pornographers or anything, just stating that it is hypocrisy not to include it in the articles that it is relevant to while other potentially (equally) offensive images are included elsewhere; if anything, the revulsion incited in the majority of the readership would be entirely congruent with their reaction to the topic and to any materials of that sort they might be exposed to. Which I cannot say for e.g. the IED article.
 * Zuiram 13:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

His major
Was his major at Sorbonne really English literature? His doctoral thesis was "A comparative study of Yasunari Kawabata and the 20th century's European avant-garde arts movements" - and April 1981, he participated in a discussion about Kawabata on a journal called Kokubungaku (Japanese Literature). --1523 08:58, 6 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I doesn't really surprise me that an English major might do work on the writings of his native culture, and that is what the linked article says. Is there any hard evidence to the contrary? --Prosfilaes 20:54, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

This is what Sagawa said: http://www1.neweb.ne.jp/wa/museum/sagawa/SMIGI0003.html


 * That link is no longer valid. Zuiram 13:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Obviously someone confused because he majored in Shakespeare at Wako University, but I don't believe studying Kawabata is English literature.--1523 05:31, 7 August 2005 (UTC)


 * What is what Sagawa said? Can you provide a rough summary for the non-Japanese speaking Wikipediers? --Prosfilaes 19:03, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Renée
It seems quite hard to find information about Renée (the victim) such as date/place of birth, family information, etc. Could anyone help? --Pinnecco 00:48, 3 December 2005 (UTC)


 * For that matter, since the victim's page simply redirects to Sagawa's page, I'm going to delete the wiki link on her name in this article. --Lilitou 19:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Japanese Anyone?
We have a version of this article even in Dutch! Don't you think translating this into Japenese should be a priority? Or do people not want to read what they don't want to know?


 * The Japanese who know about him probably don't feel compelled to write about him.
 * The people who know about this article probably don't speak Japanese well enough to translate it.
 * Try translating it yourself, contacting wikiproject japan or the japanese language wikiembassy.
 * Zuiram 13:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Japanese wiki has a brief article- http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BD%90%E5%B7%9D%E4%B8%80%E6%94%BF. It lists the books and articles he's written, would they be useful in the English wiki article?-DrHacky 15:44, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * i second that idea. other people/groups who have produced written, visual, or audio works have discographies, bibliographies, lists of works, etc. on their respective pages; this page should have such as well.  otherwise the article is solely about a particular incident and its aftermath, rather than about the person.  M. 76.170.99.57 (talk) 08:50, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Extradition v. Deportation?: Extradition may be inaccurate
in Katharine English's documentary "CANNIBAL: THE REAL HANNIBAL LECTERS: AMERICA UNDERCOVER" it is stated that Sagawa was deported and not extradited. The documentary went on to suggest his release had less to do with his father and rather due to a lack of direction during deportation as to what should be done. He then released himself several months after staying in a psychiatric ward.

Nationality of the victim?
This article states that the female victim was German. However, the page on Cannibalism (Section "Sexually motivated cannibalism)" here on wiki states she was Dutch... . I am Dutch, and, going solely by her name, I should say she is German. However, lots of people in the Netherlands have German names. The CrimeLibrary article states she is German. So probably the Cannibalism article is wrong about her nationality. But I have not done more research than I just mentioned...72.184.115.50 17:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,440259,00.html and other references say she's Dutch. The CrimeLibrary article doesn't say that she's German, only that she was teaching him German. DrHacky 15:37, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Protests at continued freedom?
Did France protest the rapid release of this guy? A2Kafir 03:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Why is this guy even alive??? I can't believe this. He kills, rapes and eats a woman, and he's adored as a celebrity in Japan? Can someone explain to me how??? Ychennay (talk) 00:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I was surprised too. They execute Saddam Hussein for only God knows what, and yet this guy gets to run around a free man.(Myscrnnm (talk) 18:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC))


 * Why did they execute Saddam?
 * "he was charged by the Iraqi Special Tribunal with crimes committed against residents of Dujail in 1982, following a failed assassination attempt against him. Specific charges included the murder of 148 people, torture of women and children and the illegal arrest of 399 others.[39]"
 * Is that enough reason for you? But I completely agree, the fact that Sagawa is now famous for these sickening acts is sad. Trojanwiki (talk) 22:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Guys, humans are flawed and stupid creatures, things like this crop up from time to time. I doubt this is the first time, and it won't be the last. Look, at the end of the day he's not the worst person walking free. He did after all only take one life, where others have killed many more. It's not like he's some form of evil incarnate, even Hitler was human. You should also note that he apparently feels the loss of what he did, and doesn't want to take another life. That's more than some. TheDarkFlame (talk) 23:17, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually it's been about thirty years since his crime, and he hasn't committed another one. The fact that he's a celebrity in Japan is what really makes this case over-the-top, though.  The Japanese are weird.74.251.38.3 (talk) 00:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify things, this guy is hardly “adored” in Japan. It’s more of a macabre fascination. I’m sure if you asked most Japanese people they would tell you that he should have been locked up long ago. The only difference between them and us is that they are more accepting of things they cannot change. They are not going to jump up and down and have a temper tantrum just because some loophole in the law and wealthy parents let this guy go free. And in many respects this is a healthier attitude to have. After all, why let something you can’t change ruin your day. Sometimes you just have to let it go and get on with your life. Hate and blame and resentment will only ruin your life. Perhaps the Japanese should be more like us though. Perhaps they should get so bent out of shape every time some radio personality makes a joke that was meant in fun that the station has no choice but to fire him to appease a bunch a irrational oversensitive idiots. This despite that fact that any intelligent rational person can see that the comment was not hateful, bigoted, or meant to hurt anyone. Or maybe they should be like us and blame all their problems on someone else, like big corporations or the Democrats or Republicans. Maybe they should go around hating their elected officials and comparing them to people like Hitler when in fact they have it pretty damn good, and despite the fact that such comparisons are a slap in the face to those people who actually had to live under such totalitarian regimes, and who would have given anything to have what he have here. In other words maybe the Japanese should just be a bunch of up-tight spoiled loud mouth crybabies like we are here in the States. On the other hand they must be doing something right since their crime rates are a minute fraction of our here in the States or other industrialized nations. In any case if this guy ever commits another crime the Japanese police will be all over it and they’ll probably lock him up and throw away the key no matter how rich or famous he is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slobeachboy (talk • contribs) 05:05, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "...up-tight spoiled loud mouth crybabies..."
 * Your very rant seems as if it was written by such a person. You made your point about the supposed "healthier" attitudes of the Japanese four sentences into your paragraph and, frankly, that was all that was necessary. The length of your diatribe, to write nothing of its irrelevant analogies, shows you to have the very same qualities of the people you attempted to criticize. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.234.248.4 (talk) 18:43, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, people should be enraged if a legal loophole and wealth lets someone off the hook for murder and cannibalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.18.192 (talk) 04:04, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Who is Kazumasa Sagawa?
I was on a japanese page where they made a reference to a "Kazumasa Sagawa"; google searches indicate that many people associate that name with the events in Mr. Issei's page. Did this killer change just his first name, or is that a nickname, or something else? 24.77.182.227 08:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's just an alternative reading of the name (the more likely one, for that matter), but I'm not sure. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:51, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Contradiction with source
Reading the current version of the article, I noticed a couple of contradictions between the CrimeLibrary source and the wiki article.

1)Crime Library says he was at Wako University when he was attracted to the German teacher, whereas the current wiki version has it as the University of Paris. Previous versions of this page had Wako, so why was it changed? Also, the current article says she was a German teacher, but Crime Library only says that she was teaching him German, not what her profession was.

2)Crime Library has that he was at the "Censier Institute" in Paris, the current wiki article says the Sorbonne. A google only shows references to a "Censier Institute" in relation to Sagawa, so the term is apparently an error on Katherine Ramsland's part, and Sorbonne appears to be correct. But should the wiki version say something reflecting the source more closely, like- "at the Université Censier Sorbonne." I don't know anything about how the place is actually referred to except from what I've googled.

3)Japanese wiki (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BD%90%E5%B7%9D%E4%B8%80%E6%94%BF) says he studied Literature at Wako University, and English Literature at Kansai Institute University in 76(和光大学人文学部文学科卒業、76年関西学院大学大学院英文学専攻修士課程修了), contradicting the Crime Library reference. I'm not saying Japanese wiki is definitely right, but is there another reference? I can't find the Peter McGill Observer article of May 24, 1992, online. DrHacky 16:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Article Glorifies Cannibalism
This article might need to be rewritten entirely. There is nothing about Hartevelt, her family or her background; she is utterly objectified and the single point of view is an insult to the woman's memory. Someone's daughter died by this monster's hands and Sagawa's still a free man, even extolled in Japanese society.

71.241.94.211 (talk) 18:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The article reports the facts of the case; I see no point of view issues. There is little about Hartevelt and her background because this article is about Sagawa. While the details of Hartevelt's murder are rather gruesome, please keep in mind that Wikipedia is not censored and is not a memorial site. — tk tk  tk  03:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

It's true. This article turned me into a cannibal. He's right though, Sagawa has gotten enough of a free ride from fanboys/girls agenda pushing a clinical and detailed account of his glorified acts. It's not memorializing her to not objectify her, nor is it the 'gruesome' account of her murder. She is depicted as a secondary element, a mere prop. I think a re-write would strongly benefit this article, and as someone who has absolutely no pre-existing feelings for or against cannibals, murderers, Sagawa, or this article I make this statement purely out of a neutral point of view that from a first reading of it it honestly does seem to be quite ... I don't know if I'd say GLORIFIES cannibalism, but it sure as fuck doesn't seem to be written in a way that conveys anything but "Here is a cold clinical re-write of material we sourced from other places presented in a boring blow by blow manner." BaSH PR0MPT (talk) 15:04, 10 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I came here for info about Issei Sagawa, that's what I got. This doesn't need to be changed, it's neutral. 2602:306:250B:6079:81F4:FB96:8F34:ADF5 (talk) 15:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * agreed...those sorts of details about her sound like they belong on a page about her, which someone above said does not exist so the link was removed. M. 76.170.99.57 (talk) 08:53, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Grammatical error (sentence fragment) that creates confusion
in the section about pop-culture references, the following immediately follows the mention of the Rolling Stones' song:

"the 2004 Human Factors Lab song "Dinner with Renee"."

that's it, just a fragment, that is the only reference without any details or even simple completion. of course i know nothing about it, don't know the song or the band or anything there, so i would hesitate to be the one to correct it. though i am going to have to learn how to edit so that i don't have to mention it on the talk pages (as it is only found talk pages last night and this is only the 2nd article i've commented on). :) M. 76.170.99.57 (talk) 08:58, 1 December 2017 (UTC)