Talk:Istanbul (Not Constantinople)

Tiny Toons
Wasn't the song featured on Animaniacs not Tiny Toons? Suppafly 00:27, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No, it was Tiny Toons. Istanbul (Not Constantinople) has a link to the video of the appearance, which should be all the proof necessary. &mdash;User:ACupOfCoffee @ 07:20, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Here is the Tiny Toons video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUgfYSbcBAk That song never gets old. :) 85.101.38.144 13:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Song in general context
This article should be about the song in general, rather than jumping about halfway to being an album page for a They Might Be Giants EP. That EP is really just a CD single with more than one backing track. TMBG rarely release "True" singles. &mdash;User:ACupOfCoffee @ 07:26, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I have deleted the TMBG discography, as clearly tangential to the article. The text of the article itself is a bit TMBG heavy as well, but I did not, at this time, edit any of that. Jackrepenning 16:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Accordian
According to an article I was reading, there actually isn't any accordion in this song. It's another instrument that sounds like it. I'll see if I can find the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.153.176.195 (talk) 15:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

Residents — same song?
I have heard the Residents song "Constantinople" enough times that I know it almost by heart, and I really don't think it's the same song. All they have in common is the word "Constantinople" and a somewhat similar verse structure. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thoughtclaw (talk • contribs) 18:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

Byzantium
Am I the only one who's disappointed that this song doesn't mention Byzantium? —Keenan Pepper 06:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Considering that it hasn't been called "Byzantium" in over a thousand years, perhaps relatively few actually remember it by that name. Jackrepenning 01:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Is Istanbul from Constantinople? & Is the song from "Puttin' on the Ritz"?
I can't find a citation that this is based on Puttin' on the Ritz. Also, I've heard rumor that the word "Constantinople" evolved into "Istambul". Is that accurate? —Ben FrantzDale 12:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Constantinople is named after Emperor Constantine of the Roman Empire, who had named it New Rome. Istanbul was the traditional name for the city, used at least since Ottoman times. Istanbul was finally renamed when the Ataturk founded the Turkish Republic around the 1930s. As for 'Puttin on the Ritz', it follows the structure and timing almost exactly, though a source would be great. Nazlfrag 03:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Only the first four notes of the two songs are the same; from there, "Istanbul (Not Constantinople)" leaps up into a falling line, while "Puttin' on the Ritz" repeats (on a different beat) the original rising line. Both depend on a similar syncopation, but "Puttin On the Ritz" also adds the rhythmic device of repeating the same line on different beats of the bar, which trick is not used in "Istanbul (Not Constantinople)."  In short, while the later song might be "based on" the earlier, it's pretty darned loosely based! Jackrepenning 01:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * A source on that issue would be great as the melodies are more than only reminiscent of one another. Puttin on the Ritz is a Jazz standard more than 20 years older than Istanbul (Not Constantinople) and by today standards the latter's composers would lose any lawsuit for plagiarism.


 * You are correct, Istanbul evolved from Constantinople. The derivation is as follows:
 * Constantinople was known as the "City" (Πόλις, Polis).
 * Indication "to the City" (στὴν Πόλιν, sten Polin) came from a variety of dialectical renderings in post-classical Greek, including
 * Modern Greek "στὴν Πόλι" (stin Poli) = "to the City"
 * Tsakonian Greek, "στὰν Πόλι" (stan Poli), => Stanpoli, where:
 * final "n" is dropped
 * "p", when preceded by a nasal consonant (μ, ν), makes a "b" sound
 * Turkish doesn't like an "o" in any syllable but the first, so it swapped it out with a "u",
 * Arabic has issues with final 'i", leads to "Stanbul".
 * Turkish added an initial "i" (dotted), to offset the consonant cluster (st) of the first syllable.
 * And so, you get Istanbul. Tachypaidia (talk) 06:32, 5 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Some would argue that it came from the similar Classical Greek "εἰς τὴν Πόλιν" (eis ten Polis), but this Greek is too old, being asynchronous with the later Ottoman invasion. Tachypaidia (talk) 00:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

TMBG version
"TMBG's version is at a faster tempo than the original and contains a distinct klezmer influence, including a violin introduction and some accordion parts." It might resemble klezmer to that editor, but it would seem to be generically 'eastern' in style, indeed that would make more sense. Maybe the influence could be explained with a bit more detail (or just omitted). I've just been on a klezmer goose chase which is fine in itself, I'm just not sure it's relevant to the song. Hakluyt bean (talk) 21:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The name Istanbul come from the greek εἰς τὴν Πόλιν(aes tan polis) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.123.181.162 (talk) 18:31, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Even Old New York
The verse that goes "even old New Yoooork was once new Amsterdam" is taken from an old Tchaikovsky piece, does anyone know the name, I forgot? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.209.95.63 (talk) 21:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC) look it up on youtube —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.12.120.85 (talk) 19:47, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

You are probably referring to "All the Girls in France Do the Hoochie-Coochie Dance", which has several sets of lyrics, some of them anti-Semitic. I was unaware that the melody was from Tchaikovsky, but it's possible.76.199.2.56 (talk) 17:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

There is a wiki-page about it called "Arabian riff", also known as "The Streets of Cairo", "The Poor Little Country Maid", and "the snake charmer song", is a well-known melody, published in various forms in the nineteenth century.[1] Alternate titles for children's songs using this melody include "The Girls in France" and "The Southern Part of France".[2][3] The melody is often associated with the hoochie coochie belly dance. Arabian riff — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1C03:680B:F000:90A1:CB2F:DEE0:E66D (talk) 17:53, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Chronological order for covers
Hello, in keeping with earlier messages here that noted that this article reads more like a TMBG advertisement than a history of the song itself, i have taken the liberty of placing all the cover versions in chronological order, with the TMBG version then getting its all call-out (which i did not alter, merely demoted to a sub-sub-head). It is my belief that when one is dealing with a historical article of this type, placing all the events in chronological order rather than perceived "popularity" order is always the best and simplest path to follow. cat yonwode not logged in 64.142.90.33 (talk) 06:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The Four Coins also did a version. (talk) 14:56, 09 December 2010 (UTC)

They Might Be Giants cover Section
Also in keeping with earlier messages here that noted that this article reads more like a TMBG advertisement than a history of the song itself, I have removed some of the tangential information that went into detail about the TMBG album that featured this song. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CopperJet (talk • contribs) 21:30, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Right now, this is the only place that information about the album is recorded, and since it has the same title, the content is appropriate here. I wouldn't mind a split but I don't want to just lose the data.  Powers T 15:57, 28 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm a big fan of TMBG, but boy-oh-boy that is the wrong reason for keeping something on WP. :-)  Even so, when deleted, the data still remains in the history files and is really easy to access later for cutting and pasting elsewhere, just so you know.


 * I deleted the material today as way off-topic. It is so.


 * TMBG is a major reason the song is remembered today and is notable in relation to the song, but their other material (James K. Polk, track details, etc) is not. If more TMBG material stuff is re-added, it should be done with this in mind.


 * 108.7.9.3 (talk) 21:48, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * you got it really wrong. TMBG released it as a single, so the details about the single (and its varying releases) shall be placed here. do you propose we have a separate page for that information? because that would be rather against WP standards. what does it matter if it's in the history files anyway? ※ gtw 07:40, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

What's really not in the slightest degree relevant to this article in any manner whatsoever is the whole paragraph about the Polk song(!). -- AnonMoos (talk) 09:12, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

In Popular Culture
(I couldn't edit the article directly because it was locked due to vandalism.) The song was a significant plot element in the TV show "Raising Hope" Season 1 Episode 3. It is played while the grandmother plays Jenga and they comment that the music is what makes her play so good. They use the song again at the end of the episode to save the baby, because the music guides the grandmother to help them safely uncover the baby from a tower of junk. -- Julianabelar (talk) 04:52, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

When was it written?
So when was it written? We have the first recording but not the date the song was published. Nitpyck (talk) 18:39, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * According to J. J. Kennedy "The Man Who Wrote The Teddy Bears' Picnic: How Irish-born lyricist and composer Jimmy Kennedy became one of the twentieth century's finest songwriters." AuthorHouse UK Ltd., (2011), p.218. it was written "late in 1953".Tachypaidia (talk) 01:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The original sheet music that I own (not a reprint) has a copyright that reads: "Copyright 1953 by ALAMO MUSIC, INC., New York, N.Y." No month is given. BTW, it retailed for 40¢. Tachypaidia (talk) 17:25, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The performance date by The Lads of August 12, 1953, indicates that "late in 1953" is a terminus post quem for the song, it's composition must have begun earlier.Tachypaidia (talk) 01:45, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Mention of Yale a capella group
This is not really relevant enough to include in the article. They are just a random college singing group. It is also not sourced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.54.75.66 (talk) 00:36, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Random group?? - see The Duke's Men of Yale. Denisarona (talk) 05:22, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Having a Wikipedia page does not make them important. There are dozens of a capella groups at any given college. I'll remove the reference unless there is further discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.27.103.182 (talk) 03:37, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Muslimization
This part is just deliberate misinformation fueled by nothing but prejudice. For if it had been an act of Islamization, which I think the aforementioned phrase was supposed to refer to, it would have been enacted not in the secular Turkey of Ataturk but in the 450 years it was under Ottoman territory. Plus Istanbul isn't a Muslim name either; as this article says it comes from a Greek phrase and its Arabic name was al-Qusṭanṭiniyah as this article says. It needs attention and rewording so it can be less prejudiced. Thank you. 176.43.221.95 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 14:09, 10 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The above contributor had additional criticism which he mistakenly (good faith) intercalated into the article. I am providing that criticism here in that it expands the critique above.Tachypaidia (talk)


 * This is quite clearly nonsense. Any stir caused in 1930 was long forgotten by the time of the song's release in 1953 - let's not forget there had been a major European war in the interim! Countries were being divided, much of Europe lay in ruins, nobody much cared about the name of the Turkish capital.
 * As for the "reference" given, that is an absolute joke. The woman doesn't even know the name of the song, confusing its title with the name of a band that released a cover version in 1990 - and she persists with the racist "muslimist" slur, when Ataturk's reforms were clearly secular.
 * It's this sort of sloppiness that brings Wikipedia into disrepute, and saddens me greatly. (From 176.43.221.95 main article edit, 0:42, 20 June 2015‎).


 * Contributor 176.43.221.95 accuses Prof. Mary D'Ambrosio of "prejudice" and a slur in her statements regarding the song. She says that the "song [was] written in Turkey’s defense" and that the song served to take "the edge off Western pique".  She also notes, in passing, that her husband is Turkish. http://ieimedia.com/blog/multimedia/why-istanbul-not-constantinople


 * Her credentials as an assistant professor of Journalism at Central Connecticut State University and previously adjunct professor at New York University and Columbia University are credentials warranting citation in Wikipedia. She is also is the Director of the Istanbul Project, a foreign reporting program in Istanbul.


 * In the source cited, the caption under the picture--as article headlines and picture captions are often wont to be--may or may not have been authored by Prof. D'Ambrosio. The caption may be provided by the ieiMedia site.  In any instance, the offending language appears to be the phrase "the Muslimization of the city's name"; offending enough that the contributor titled this section “Muslimization”.


 * Granted, that in the 21st century this is unusual wording; something one might expect in the 1920s-1960s. Words that were once frequent, even in academic sources, such as Turkoman, Mohammedan, Saracen, Mussulman, etc.  (cf. Fowler’s, A Dictionary of Modern English, Oxford 1965) have largely fallen from usage.  Older readers are most likely to recall or be familiar with them.


 * The contributor posits that were the renaming of Constantinople an “act of Islamization” if would have happened 450 years prior, not in 1930. There is, of course, no way of knowing when such events occur—-e.g., if the Confederate flag were to come down, would it have been 150 years ago or now?  Or, even granting the contributor’s proposition, effectively, Turkey's establishment came with the de-diversification of the city.  The city had been distinguished by its cultural plurality, and its de-diversification program yielded a de facto Muslimization; the proportion of Istanbul’s foreign population now stands at about 0.003.


 * The contributor also avers that in the 23 years from 1930 to 1953 the stir was long forgotten. That would certainly be remarkable—hardly even a generation—and the name Istanbul was still not fully accepted in Western circles; Constantinople remaining stubbornly on maps into the 1960s.


 * We would be remiss to overlook important milestones here: in 1947 was the Truman Doctrine—primarily centered on Turkey; and, in the year before the song was published, 1952, Turkey was admitted to NATO. But most significantly, the year of the song release, 1953, was the 500th anniversary of the conquest of the City.  Very much in the news then (even this year, the 562nd anniversary, was widely celebrated).


 * And, in its wake, in 1955 followed the Istanbul pogroms where the last remaining remnants of Christian residents were largely driven from the city.Tachypaidia (talk) 03:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)Tachypaidia (talk) 03:29, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

MAKE ISTANBUL CONSTANTINOPLE AGAIN!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.72.73.253 (talk) 22:36, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
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Covers
I am a new user, and re-added a very brief note regarding the existance of a vinyl pressed cover from New Zealand, because I felt it fitted with the article being about the song itself (not just TMBG). Please advise if on an earlier (anonymous) edit I unknowingly breached Wikipedia etiquette. GenXKiwi (talk) 04:58, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Muppets
It was in a Muppets episoide with Pierce Brosnan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.90.203.90 (talk) 01:01, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Why was "C-O-N-S-T-A-N-T-I-N-O-P-L-E" reverted to not being a red link?
Is it just that it's not well known? Denisarona could you explain why it was removed? 216.173.152.45 (talk) 20:25, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Because the "red link" means there is no article with this name on Wikipedia. Regards Denisarona (talk) 12:28, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Puttin on the Ritz
Nothing? Drsruli (talk) 01:55, 26 July 2023 (UTC)