Talk:Istanbul Armenian Genocide memorial

Title
I have moved the page from Istanbul Armenian Genocide memorial to Constantinople Armenian Genocide memorial because the name "Istanbul" was not used when the monument was extant. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:00, 3 April 2015 (UTC)


 * We go by WP:COMMONNAME, not by our understanding of what the official name is. As such, contemporary sources do not refer to this monument as the Armenian Genocide monument of Constantinople. It commonly words it as a monument located in Istanbul. Étienne Dolet (talk) 03:41, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Your reasoning is not valid. There can be no contemporary sources that refer to the city as Istanbul because nobody called it Istanbul when the monument was extant. Such an obscure monument cannot have a common name argument attached to it, but the most common name for Constantinople was Constantinople. And it is an established usage on Wikipedia to NOT use the name Istanbul in articles to refer to events that took place in the city when it was called Constantinople. Also, you should not have arbitrarily moved the page back to Istanbul Armenian Genocide memorial because, after the first page move, all subsequent page moves should be assumed to be controversial, requiring a formal proposal to generate discussion. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:57, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * We don't go by what we believe the official title should be. Per Official names: Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources.


 * Your argument is based on the understanding that Constantinople was the official name, while neglecting the fact that the contemporary name of Istanbul is much more common, especially in reference to the monument in question. I have yet seen a source in English, Turkish, and even Armenian, that calls this monument the Constantinople Armenian Genocide memorial. In other words, almost all sources point to the fact that it was built in Istanbul, the most recognizable name used by contemporary sources of the area in which the memorial has been erected. In effect, by calling the article Constantinople..., no curious reader would even come across this article, since s/he hasn't seen it referenced in any other contemporary source. Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:07, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The most common contemporary name of the city was Constantinople! It was "Constantinople" on maps, "Constantinople" on postmarks, "Constantinople" on postcards, "Constantinople" in guide books, "Constantinople" in academic literature. If you are seriously arguing otherwise, present some 1910s or 1920s sources that uses "Istanbul". Yes the modern Turkish sources use the name "Istanbul" - but they do not use the exact phrase "Istanbul Armenian Genocide memorial". The monument was erected in Constantinople to commemorate those who died in what is now known as the Armenian Genocide. The monument no longer exists, and did not exist when the city was renamed Istanbul, so I think the destroyed monument cannot be called the "Istanbul Armenian Genocide Memorial". Those words could be used as a redirect though. And this usage of Constantinople as opposed to Istanbul agrees with the usage of Constantinople agreed after discussion on other articles. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:03, 10 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Exactly my point...was. Étienne Dolet (talk) 22:09, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Your point seems to be to ignore all the points raised that oppose your position. When you say "contemporary" you are misusing that word and are actually meaning "modern" or "current". Contemporary would refer to what the city was called when the monument was standing, i.e. the name that was contemporaneous with it, that existed at the same time as it existed. The contemporary name was Constantinople. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:45, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Name of the Armenian memorial in Istanbul
The name of this stele was "11 April". Interestingly there has been no discussion here on the issue on that date. Of the four words in the current title only "Genocide" should be avoided as at the time this stele was erected there was no such concept. Full stop. --176.239.80.138 (talk) 08:11, 12 April 2015 (UTC)


 * 11 April signifies the Rumi calendar, which isn't used anymore. The date is April 24, under the Gregorian calendar, which is the date that the deportation of Armenian intellectuals began. April 24 is considered the start of the Armenian Genocide, and it is now officially Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day. It's not that the 'concept' of genocide wasn't invented, it's just that the term itself wasn't coined until the 1940s. But just because the term wasn't invented then, doesn't mean that the crimes committed towards the Armenians in 1915 do not fall under the modern definition of genocide. Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:08, 13 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The concept was coined in the 40s, therefore the memorial's name could not use that word. So simple. --141.196.209.106 (talk) 17:23, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

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