Talk:It's Grim Up North/Archive 1

More to come
Will happily do a bit more to this soon --Vinoir 19:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Song samples
Clips of "IGUN" and "Jerusalem on the Moors" would be good. --kingboyk 07:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The whistle samples used are referred to as "steam train whistles", when in fact they are the whistles used by factories to signal the end of the working day - and thus symbolic of the closing of the factories in the north at that point in time, rises in unemployment, and grimness in general. --User:AndrewDucker 08:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Grey vinyl
If this is some kind of special vinyl, (partly recycled, has special properties, etc) it needs a link or inline explanation. If it's just the color used I suggest "grey coloured vinyl" instead. Did a lot of stuff come out in that color? I don't have the physical single so don't know... (A little bird hooked me up with a version of the track... mmm good stuff) + +Lar: t/c 12:46, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Cough, couldn't possibly condone that! Anyway... "grey coloured vinyl", yes. Over here we omit the "coloured" (e.g. the "red vinyl" release of 1962-1966) or at least vinyl buffs do! I'll amend for clarity now. Thanks for the headsup. --kingboyk 21:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Whoops... did a lot of stuff come out in that colour? Most definitely not. Red, blue or green vinyl is quite common, as are picture discs. Grey vinyl is quite unusual. It symbolises the grey, dreary, overcast skies of the "grim" North I do believe. --kingboyk 21:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well done. I'd enhance the ref you linked from "grey coloured viny;" to mention that fact, it's significant. Especially if you could find a further ref on how rare that color choice is (I have, somewhere, an old Grand Funk Railroad We're an American Band LP on clear yellow vinyl, the only non black LP in my entire collection I think so I'm not as in tune with color usage as you are ) + +Lar: t/c 22:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Good Article
And then there were two... excellent! I think this is what "Good Articles" are all about. It's a nice read, it has some sources and media, but it's not quite at Featured Status and it's not particularly long. --kingboyk 15:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

CB Mike
I dab'ed this but I was guessing that Citizen's Band radio was the thing meant. Anyone have a source?  + + Lar: t/c 16:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * What kind of source? He holds it in the video and held it on ToTP. (It might be a PA mic, or a CB wired up for PA, but I think CB is close enough). --kingboyk 16:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Er, why a source from the UK National Archives documenting what model and brand of radio it came from, a photocopy of the shop receipt and a video of him buying it, and a notarised statement from all the band members that it was used that way, of course! ... er, seriously now ... Your eyes are better than mine, so that works for me. I just wasn't sure. Following the original link led to some rather large disambig page so I was nervous.  + + Lar: t/c 18:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Lol. OK. I'm pretty sure it was a Uniden 200 and it was purchased from Currys in 1986 :P lol. Hey, Lar: At some point we are going to need a pair of neutral non-British eyes to look over The KLF article to ensure that we have explained any British slang and that the article is intelligible to a non-afficianado. Assuming that by then you haven't been K-infected, would you be up for said task? --kingboyk 18:25, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm probably not the best candidate for that because I'm anglophile... I let UKish speech mannerisms slip in to my verbiage, as well as knowing more UK slang than the average seppo. I'd give it a go though, I guess, if you can't find some other bloke. I've some ideas of favours I could call in to find folk, too. However, are you talking about reviewing the entire ouvre of KLF articles? That's rather a lot. Or just the main one?  + + Lar: t/c 18:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Just the main one. An unconverted redneck yankee American gentleman or gentlewoman might be best! --kingboyk 18:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Right, then, I've taken a pass. Didn't spot much. Said I took one on the talk page. I'll see who I can scare up. Interesting read (although I'd read it all before)...  + + Lar: t/c 19:06, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks mate. It can wait for now though, as we're not finished yet :) --kingboyk 19:17, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

"The North has risen again"
Lyrics from the (excellent) Who Killed The JAMs? track "Prestwich Prophet's Grin". --kingboyk 08:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Which was reportedly a reference to the (extremely excellent) "Hit the North" by the Fall.
 * No need to mention in this article though as these lyrics were not in "IGUN". Thus, I'm not sure why I left the comment here in the first place :) --kingboyk (talk) 21:53, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Phonebox
Doesn't Jimmy or someone chant the lines in a rain-swept phonebox ? -  max rspct  leave a message  21:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * In the video I think it's just Bill, and it's a rain-swept layby. I suppose I'll have to watch the vid now to give you an authorative answer. Just a moment! --kingboyk 09:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No phonebox, and Jimmy plays the enigmatic (silent) rock star (as usual). --kingboyk 09:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

"Leigh"
It's been months, but something is nagging at me about the lyrics. What actually comes after "Ormskirk, Accrington, Stanley..." in the third verse?

When I did my initial search, my results all said it was "Ormskirk, Accrington, Stanley, and Leigh"; however, the first verse has "Sale, Salford, Southport, Leigh". As a result I just left it out when I made the list, but this breaks the tempo and rhyming of the lyrics. All the while, I kept wondering why it would be in there twice... Would no other town fit?

(Come to think of it, I already broke the tempo by substituting "Scarborough" for "Scarborough-on-Sea". I wasn't consistent in making a choice between using the song's wordings and Wikipedia's article titles either.)

A more authoritative interpretation, guys? –Unint 01:49, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've reformatted Scarborough-on-Sea. Not entirely sure re Leigh without checking an atlas - I don't have one to hand - but I'm pretty sure it's right... --kingboyk 06:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I've been listening to the "original" version (you can look it up on YouTube). What struck me was the sequence of towns is different in that version: it starts with the line Ossett &rarr; Bramhall, but with Skem replaced by Crewe. The second string of towns is Bolton &rarr; Hull, and, yes, also including Crewe.

So, if they had Crewe in twice in the first version, why wouldn't they have Leigh in twice in the second version? I've been looking around a bit on Google Maps, and the closest I could find to replace the 2nd Leigh is "Emley". Problem is, you don't hear an "M", you do hear an "N".

Arjanh (talk) 10:49, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The video that one can obtain from A Certain Website (with only two verses) definitely has "Accrington, Stanley, and Leigh". Might one of the "Leigh"'s be Lea, Cheshire? Tevildo (talk) 21:58, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Here I come again
Seems I've got nothing but questions about this.

I can only guess that the song is, in fact, the origin of the "it's grim up north" phrase? (No mention of anything other than the graffiti.) In that case, a discussion of the regional (seemingly) ubiquity of the phrase would make a good impact on the article. (I've never been to England, but Google turns up a lot of hits unrelated to the song.) –Unint 03:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No I don't think the song is the origin of the phrase :) It would be lovely if we could claim it, but I believe the phrase predates the song. If we could get some information on the exact origins of the phrase it would be a wonderful addition, I heartily agree - but where to find such info? I don't know.


 * What you probably don't know about, then, as a non-Englishman is the North-South divide. Much of England's industrial revolution activity (coal mining, heavy industries) was in The North (and Wales), but many of those areas declined along with those industries. Also, the song is set in The Pennines a beautiful but desolate area of Northern England (it's actually set on the M62 motorway which crosses the Pennines :)).


 * I definitely think that the article would be enhanced by explaining all this (so thanks for mentioning it!), but:


 * I don't have time at the moment
 * How to do it without being original research


 * Further comments welcome! --kingboyk 08:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This looks to be bigger than my current comprehension. Moving on... for the moment. –Unint 01:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's from the Harry Enfield Channel 4 comedy film "Norbert Smith - A Life" which depicts the life of an old English actor in documentary style. One of the many things Norbert appears in is a kitchen sink late 1950s Saturday Night & Sunday Morning type film called It's Grim Up North. The graffiti followed on from this, though the fact that the motorway bridge was used in JAMs publicity for the single doesn't mean that they weren't also referenced Enfield's film. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.78.101.191 (talk) 19:20, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Industrial towns
A slight change as this bit is not correct ”over which Drummond gives a roll-call of many of Northern England's industrial towns” Some of the towns are not industrial, including: Buxton, Bramhall, Chester, Knutsford, Macclesfield, Nantwich. And when was the M62 a town? ThanxTheriac 22:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Fix it then. He says they're grimthough, industrial or not! ;) --kingboyk 22:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to take this song serious when it claims that Harrogate is grim. That's the same Harrogate that regularly features in the top ten best UK towns to live in.GordyB (talk) 17:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree many of the towns are the very antithesis of "grim" and would be affluent and desirable wherever they were in England. Beside Harrogate, Knutsford, Otley, Clitheroe, Nantwich, Glossop, Hebden Bridge, Ilkley, Bingley, Macclesfield, Buxton, Southport, Sale, Prestwich, Lytham St Annes, Skipton, Chester are all generally solidly affluent Tory towns. This makes me think that the whole thing is obviously meant ironically. I live in the North and generally speaking its far from grim and probably only the West Country rivals it for beautiful country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.98.80.38 (talk) 21:05, 13 July 2016 (UTC)


 * But see the Guardian 2007 comment in the main article - don't neccessarily take the track at face value as the KLF saying the Northern towns are grim - instead the track "wrongfoots the listener" because it blossoms into Jerusalem "as if arriving at some socialist rave utopia". Georgethe23rd (talk) 11:17, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * However, that interpretation fundamentally misses the irony of Jerusalem - it is not any form of Utopia as Jerusalem was not built here amongst our dark satanic mills. Martin Hinks (talk) 14:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point - I naievely hoped that they were saying that the North is our Jerusalem. And now I've taken a look at And did those feet in ancient time as a result of your post. If there's been a critical evaluation of It's Grim..., suggesting why it turns into Jerusualem, maybe it'd be worth adding to the article. Are the KLF being ironic, or mischief making (after all it is called It's Grim Up North), or what? Georgethe23rd (talk) 10:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Bill is from a place considerably further north than Harrogate and, so far as I know, is proud of the fact. Whether they were being 'ironic' I couldn't say but I doubt they were being entirely literal :) --kingboyk (talk) 12:53, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071005115959/http://www.libraryofmu.org/display-resource.php?id=176 to http://www.libraryofmu.org/display-resource.php?id=176

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External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 one external links on It's Grim Up North. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071005024434/http://www.libraryofmu.org/display-resource.php?id=511 to http://www.libraryofmu.org/display-resource.php?id=511
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071005181723/http://www.libraryofmu.org/display-resource.php?id=258 to http://www.libraryofmu.org/display-resource.php?id=258
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070315004740/http://www.libraryofmu.org:80/display-resource.php?id=257 to http://www.libraryofmu.org/display-resource.php?id=257

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Video filmed in Sussex?
A rumour that I've never been able to pin down: the video was shot on the A27 just outside Brighton.

If it is true, then it really should be in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.93.233.246 (talk) 06:39, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the world at large, the average reader, can live without knowing whether the video was filmed on the A27 or not. If the media made a song and dance about that, because e.g. they felt it was a great irony that the video was filmed in the south, then we would of course mention it. But some rumour about a piece of trivia? Nah. --kingboyk (talk) 07:11, 6 March 2020 (UTC)