Talk:It's Nobody's Fault but Mine/Archive 1

Difference between "It's Nobody Fault But Mine", and "Nobody's Fault But Mine"
Being a passionate blues and Led Zepplin fan: I felt compelled to set the record straight about this song and it's origins. It is my understanding that the Led Zepplin song mentioned above is actually a very divergent cover of this song, but I have not made any mention of this as I have no written reference for such an inference. If anyone can find one, please make the appropriate alterations. Furthermore: Besides the instrumental and lyrical differences, it can at least be said that the song by Blind Willie Johnson is at least an inspiration for the Led Zepplin version. I have found a web page that makes note of the differences between the songs: http://www.turnmeondeadman.net/Zep/NobodysFaultButMine.php Please contribute to this article by finding more quotable references. Mr. McSinister (talk) 02:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Johnson's song wasn't released in 1976 and secondly Page and Plant's version is the same as the Led Zeppelin version, credited Page/Plant on the album. MegX (talk) 04:56, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? Johnson's version was recorded and released in 1927, and the Page and Plant version is not even close to the same as the Led Zepplin version: Did you even bother to read the lyrics?


 * If you pay any attention to the above lyrics you will understand that the two songs couldn't be more different from each other in everything but name. I can verify the accuracy of the above lyrics, as I am conversant with them. Mr. McSinister (talk) 19:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * They're essentially the same song, so much so that The 77s used the Zeplin name when they re-recorded the album, but used many of the original lyrics. The meter is unchanged. Merge and redirect. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:36, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Have you listened to the Blind Willie Johnson version and the Led Zeppelin version? They couldn't be more different. This song has historical value and is part of the rich tapestry of delta blues.bwmcmaste (talk) 04:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

AFD was a fraud
As per what I wrote in the Afd:
 * Please note that four of these editors who !voted for this AfD: TheClashFan (nominator), JamesBurns, A-Kartoffel, JoannaMinogue are socks of the same person, see: Sockpuppet investigations/JamesBurns/Archive

I have removed the redirect.

Ikip (talk) 18:33, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep

 * I would vote to put this song and other Blind Willie Johnson songs into a list article separate from the main Blind Willie Johnson article. Many of his songs were among the first of their kind (slide guitar, and gospel/delta blues). bwmcmaste (talk) 07:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I've added an article stub to the main page: Perhaps this will be of some incentive to expand it. bwmcmaste (talk) 16:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

ownership?
The article currently reads "is a song by delta blues player Blind Willie Johnson" but I think it would be better to write "is a traditional delta blues song first recorded by Blind Willie Johnson". It seems more correct to state it that way. Any comments? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Merge?
Now that It's Nobody's Fault But Mine has been filled out, particularly with cover versions, it's obvious that either it's list or Nobody's Fault But Mine's has some erroneous entries. It makes sense to merge the two now more than ever to avoid this sort of problem.

How vandalism?
I tried to make the article more precise. The additional track information is informative, but not really about the song. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SockpuppetWG (talk • contribs) 01:15, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I have seen your deletion of traditional has ended and you moved the overview section into the into introduction, which I hadn't seen as first. Thanks for helping to make this article better. Now it's time to merge it with Nobody's Fault but Mine.
 * Please get rid of your User ID as it suggests that you're a sock puppet of me, when you're just attempting to eitehr implicate me or at the very least, mock me. I find it offensive and have reported it. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:28, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually it refers to West-side gang. And sockpuppet is a cool name.--SockpuppetWG (talk) 01:44, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there a way to change your user name?--SockpuppetWG (talk) 02:03, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Mine? No. Yours? An admin may be able to help you. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:12, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Merging and other concerns

 * The proposal to merge this article seems to be moot (given the concerted effort to keep it separate): Can anyone give a reason to merge it, or can I remove the template from the main page and close this proposal? Also: I noticed the newest section (regarding cover versions) has no references and have tagged it accordingly. If someone can source these contributions it would be a benefit to the article's integrity. bwmcmaste (talk) 19:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Far from moot. The articles are more similar now than ever and it makes imminent sense to combine them. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm still inclined to disagree with your position on merging the article. I believe that the article should remain separate from the Led Zeppelin one. It is a stub and should be expanded. bwmcmaste (talk) 08:54, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Merge - both articles cover the same ground. Precedent is well established, see "In My Time of Dying", "When the Levee Breaks", "Bring It On Home (Sonny Boy Williamson II song)", etc. Ojorojo (talk) 16:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't Merge - agree with my friend bwmcmaste. This song deserves an article in it's own right. Bluesfan1928 (talk) 01:33, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * someone merged the articles just a few days ago. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:39, 29 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Merge - the purpose of Wikipedia is to provide information to those searching for it. An inadvertent omission of "it's" leads to an entirely different page and leaves off valuable information.  This is the wrong result for Wikipedia.  Merging them does not diminish the difference of the Zep version, as this can be addressed on the same page ad nauseum by those in favor of such treatment.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mizzer Fashizlio (talk • contribs) 18:13, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: While I too agree with the merge, both articles are currently linked. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Merging 11/2013
Should "Nobody's Fault but Mine" (which deals mostly with Led Zeppelin's song, but also addresses the traditional/Blind Willie Johnson songs) and "It's Nobody's Fault but Mine" (which deals with the traditional/Johnson song and subsequent renditions) be merged into one article which covers the various adaptations of the song? WP:SONGCOVER provides the following guidance: When a song has renditions (recorded or performed) by more than one artist, discussion of a particular artist's rendition should be included in the song's article (never in a separate article), but only if at least one of the following applies: Please preface comments with * Merge - or * Don't Merge -. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:24, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * the rendition is discussed by a reliable source on the subject of the song (not on the subject of the rendition),
 * the rendition itself meets the notability requirement at WP:NSONGS.
 * Comment Legally the songs are two separate entities like "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" and the African song from which it was drawn. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:42, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Are there references for this? Opinions about legal matters should have reliable sources. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:46, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I suggest you read the articles. Both of them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:10, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Nothing in either article or the references mentions the legal status of the songs. However, and more importantly for WP article purposes, at least three of the references unequivocally state that the Zeppelin song is an adaptation of Johnson's song (Davis p. 264, Shadwick p. 244, Wall p. 346).  Making a comparison to "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" and the song upon which it is based is interesting.  That article (which addresses both songs) states that it is an adaptation of "Mbube", a "wordless melody from 1939" and that the court ruled (The Lion Sleeps Tonight) that the estate of the original artist/composer should receive royalties from "Lion" (see also "El Cóndor Pasa"). —Ojorojo (talk) 15:32, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry. I'm confusing the current version of the song with an earlier one where the copyright issue was discussed. This song was copyrighted by Led Zeppelin and no suit was made to attempt to question that copyright, however, as you state, most people know that it's based on the song that was first recorded by Johnson. The music is quite different, which is the opposite case of "The Lion Sleeps Tonight", and there are different lyrics.
 * As you can see, no one is talking here, but you will find fierce opposition if you attempt to merge it.
 * I personally believe that they should be merged, but know that when I suggested it and tried to do it several years ago, I was not met with enthusiastic support. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:18, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't Merge: Both articles are fine as is. Davis, Shadwick, and Wall are all incorrect as they failed to take into account the song is a traditional one. Bluesfan1928 (talk) 22:03, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Are there reliable sources for this? If not, it's OR. (See WP:RELY, WP:OR). —Ojorojo (talk) 15:17, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Abbott, Lynn (2007). Ragged But Right: Black Travelling Shows, "Coon Songs", and the Dark Pathway to Blues and Jazz. p. 167. ISBN 1578069017.
 * Kennedy, Robert Emmet (1925). Mellows, a Chronicle of Unknown Singers. p. 150. Bluesfan1928 (talk) 20:26, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Neither reference supports a view that the Led Zeppelin song is not an adaptation of the Blind Willie Johnson song or that three sources noted above are incorrect. In Ragged, the song is not mentioned on p. 167, but on p. 267 it is identified only as a "religious folk song" in the following context: "All three late recorded versions [of the song 'I Wish I Was in Heaven, Sitting Down'] have an amorphous 'made-up' quality, melodically related to the religious folk song 'Nobody's Fault but Mine', and incorporating random verses from several well-known gospel songs and spirituals."  In Mellows, the song is not discussed; p. 150 is the last page of the book. In The Rough Guide to Led Zeppelin p. 238 it states: "Like 'In My Time of Dying' ' on Physical Graffiti, 'Nobody's Fault but Mine' was written by Blind Willie Johnson." —Ojorojo (talk) 15:44, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not a Led Zeppelin fan so I have no idea why you're quoting books about them to me. All the authors you are using are not blues scholars but music journalists. I wouldn't put much credence in what they say. Music journalists have a tendency of simply copying off each other and poor fact checking. Davis is the worst out of the lot - a substantial part of his writing is based on hearsay. Bluesfan1928 (talk) 20:35, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * What would you consider to be a reliable source discussing the song as "traditional" or before Johnson's recording? —Ojorojo (talk) 15:41, 29 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment So far, no reasons for keeping two articles have been given. The fact that one focuses on Johnson and one on Zeppelin and "should be seen" as such or is "fine as is" doesn't add support to the position.  However, WP:SONGCOVER and references that one is an adaptation of the other support merging the two articles. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:38, 6 December 2013 (UTC)