Talk:Italian Jews

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 February 2021 and 16 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tacollins10.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:56, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Italqith
one thing i've wondered about for a long time now is: do italkim have their own dialect of hebrew (as well as the italkian language)?

Gringo300 08:20, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Not a dialect per se, but a unique manner of pronunciation, yes...more analogous to an "accent" than a "dialect"... from what I understand, it's like modern israeli hebrew with a few vowel differences, especially in the north of italy.  Tom e r TALK 21:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)


 * from what i've heard and read, there are various different dialects of italian spoken in different parts of italy, and i've read that the same applies to italkian, so it seems logical that hebrew spoken by italkim would be different in different parts of italy. so far however, i know more about italian FOOD than i do the italian language. i plan to change that however. Gringo300 16:08, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, that's nice. This article tho is about the Bnei Roma, not their language.  Head on over to Italqith for that.  You'll notice some of your questions are answered there.  And enjoy the food! :-p  Tom e rtalk  08:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Italian Hebrew is very much like that of conservative Spanish and Portuguese Jews, for example ayin as "ng" (occasionally "ny"), final tav as "d". Vav is normally "v" as in most Hebrew dialects, but can become "w" in diphthongs (as in the family name "Anaw"). Also they mostly can't pronounce "he" (hence the family name "Coen"). I don't know about any regional variations. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 15:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There is one difference, though, Italkim pronounce Beth Raphe as V while Spanish and Portuguese Jews pronounce it as B. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.166.129.232 (talk) 13:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

Old grammars (such as Hurwitz), based on contemporary Spanish and Portuguese (and ultimately Italian) usage, distinguish between initial ayin, pronounced "ny", and final ayin, pronounced "ng". It seems likely that the "ny" pronunciation was local to Rome, where the local dialect often has "gn" where Italian has "ng": see the article on "Romanesco" on Italian Wikipedia. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 17:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Other general features of traditional Italian pronunciation of Hebrew are: 1. final tav pronounced as /d/; 2. in speakers in communities south of the the La Spezia-Rimini isogloss, or in those communities transplanted north of this, conservation of geminate dagesh (both features seen in the pronunciation of שבת [ʃabːad], Judeo-Romanesque [ʃabːadːe]); 3. in construct masculine plurals with male singular possessive suffix יו-, pronunciation is not [-av] but [-au]. For additional features, as well as discussion of regional variants, see: Elia S. "La pronuncia dell'ebraico presso gli Ebrei di Italia." in Scritti in memoria di F. Luzzatto. Rassegna Mensile di Israel 28 (1962): 26-30. --Jerchower 18:30, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Name of article
What would people think of merging this into history of the Jews in Italy, a much older article? Michael Hardy 17:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather not. History of the Jews in Italy is a much longer article, mostly from the Jewish Encyclopedia. This article is there simply to say what communities exist in Italy today, and dispel the impression that they are all "Italian Jews" in the historic sense of Bené Roma. Similarly, there are separate articles for History of the Jews in Syria and Syrian Jews, and for History of the Jews in Lithuania and Lithuanian Jews. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 16:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Some time ago this article was moved to "Bené Roma" (it had been "Italkim"). I now have some doubts about this.

First, the traditional description of the liturgy, taken from the Talmud, is "Benè Romì". Secondly, this strictly speaking only applies to the liturgy of Rome, and not to the closely related "minhag Italiani" of northern cities such as Padua and Turin.

What we need is a term meaning "Jews of the Italian rite" (I'm not keen on "Italkim", that is a purely modern Israeli term used in academic literature). Failing that, I'd be tempted to merge this article with Italian Jews, so that that article describes the Italian rite after first explaining that there are other rites in use as well.

What do you think? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 09:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Should Italian Jews be merged with Bené Roma? The article should start as at present, and then describe the particular groups in more detail. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 09:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Culture
Hi all,

I would like to propose introducing a "Culture" section into this article. The information covered in this article is very thorough and detailed, and therefore I believe that continuing with that momentum, while introducing a new sub-topic would be a great addition. I will be using two credible secondary sources that contain legitimate information on the topics of Italian Jewish culture and culinary traditions. Klein's source is reliable because it is contained within Italy's Jewish from Emancipation to Fascism and published by Cambridge University Press of Cambridge, UK. Dr. Shira Klein is an associate professor at Chapman University and her book was a finalist for the 2018 National Jewish Book Award. This source was also published in 2018. Weishouse, Harel, and Perani's source is reliable because it is contained within The Jews in Italy: Their Contribution to the Development and Diffusion of Jewish Heritage and was published by Academic Studies Press and it is based upon a conference that took place in September 2011 at the University of Bologna. This source was also published in October of 2019.

In this addition to the article, I will be incorporating more important content about Italian Jews and the history of their food traditions, with an additional emphasis on the culture that came to flourish within Italian Jewish tradition. From both secondary sources, I will be adding information regarding specific culinary traditions, such as maintaining kosher, the spread of Italian Jewish cuisine across Italy, as well as daily food traditions. In addition to speaking on food tradition, from Klein's article, I will introduce information on the Italian Jewish identity, life in Italian Jewish communities, and the legacy that has flourished through the passage of time.

The scope of my changes will range from around 200-300 words.

References:

If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page. Thank you! Tacollins10 (talk) 15:58, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

"Italkic rite" listed at Redirects for discussion
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"Italchi rite" listed at Redirects for discussion
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