Talk:Italian governorate of Montenegro/Archive 1

Link
The link Crnogorski zelenaši should have an Ensligh name since this is the English Wikipedia. At least add a translation or description. Will (Talk - contribs) 23:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

CrnaGora & co.
I don't want to start an edit war about a flag... I've just reverted an unexplained edit, which was reverted back, without an explanation as well... I'm getting tired of this sort of stuff, so just do what you want, I'll be glad to stay out of it. Sideshow Bob 22:59, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I also want to stay out of edit wars. The thing is that Pax never gave the reason for why that was the real flag, because that flag was designed in 2003 or 2004 for the new official flag of Montenegro. --CrnaGora 00:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, this flag is erroneous - but is similar to the country's flag. The only difference is that it did not have the golden Bar around and the double-headed eagle was white and not golden.
 * Not to mix with the modern flag, I'll put this one (though it's still not it, it has the "NI" bit). --PaxEquilibrium 05:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

suggestion
I suggest to put Italian WWII flag due to Montenegro was occupied by Italians, officially had Italian governor and currency.

By the State symbols law this (Republic of Montenegro) flag shouldn’t be used here. Stefke 11:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Dear PaxEquilibrium,
this is a citation that I found on your link on ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA

''After World War I, independent Montenegro along with several other Balkan countries became part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (later renamed Yugoslavia) and had no flag of its own. Yugoslavia was dissolved by the Axis powers during World War II; Montenegro, nominally independent, was occupied by Italy and again flew the red-blue-white tricolour from July 1941 to November 1943.''

so, flag used in montenegro was TRICOLOR, not present flag of montenegro with DPS coat of arms as you love to say.

Stefke 13:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Understood, but you must also understand that Encyclopedia Britannica isn't God. It also considers that Montenegrins are Serbs (historically, origin) and yet we don't put that here.


 * Yes, the Montenegrin flag was used in the start, but not afterwards. It was banned by the Axis soon to the end of 1941, because it was used both as a symbol of resistance and as a Serb symbol, which didn't relate to then's ruling ideology that Montenegrins are not of Serb, but of Croat origin. To put that flag actually there is insulting to the tens of thousands of victims of the Axis, so I don't think we should put it. Instead of the tricolor, Nicholas' War Stag was used by the Montenegrin administration. Such can be seen with the Flag of the Montenegrin Council in Zagreb in 1944, or the Montenegrin People's Army's banner too, which's identical to this one.


 * Are you sure the language was Serbian? I think it was Croatian. The whole state was just a temporary resolution until Montenegro could be assimilated/incorporated into Croatia. Such is the case with the Croatian Orthodox Church foundations in Montenegro in 1942. That's all a so-called part of that "de-serbification & croatization of Montenegro" plan imposed by the Nazis, on Ustasha designs. --PaxEquilibrium 19:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not the present-day Montenegrin flag! It's Nicholas' war banner. --PaxEquilibrium 20:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

war banner? no, you are all the time pointing at OFFICIAL FLAG OF PRINCIPALITY, which was red with white eagle!

croatian language has no cyrilic letters, so just see some documents from that period (written in It. and Sr.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stefke (talk • contribs) 00:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The only official state flag of the Principality was the Red-Light Blue-White and none other whatsoever. Croatian doesn't have Cyrillic letters now. --PaxEquilibrium 11:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Pax, please don't put here flag which I uploaded for purpose of the Principality article, othervise I'll remove it.

and PLEASE read article on page http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9435238/Montenegro-flag-of

if it's still not enough for you visit http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/me_k.html there is more briefly about montenegrin flags, and

it is possible to read!

This is citation from britannica! Google it if you dont believe.

"Montenegro, nominally independent, was occupied by Italy and again flew the red-blue-white tricolour from July 1941 to November 1943."

I know you adore tricolor flags, but Montenegro used also used some non-tricolor flags during age of princedom.

So if Britannica is not relevant, tell them first!

Stefke 20:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Why did you upload it for the purpose of the Principality article?
 * I cannot because I don't have access. I see only the intro with first two sentences. I'm not paying 70$, nor AFAIK do I have a credit card at all.
 * Well, AFAIK, I did Google it. It gives 0 Google results (next to the Wikipedia article). :)
 * The (other) site you gave me said that the Montenegrin puppet state used only in the beginning the tricolor, just like I said (before it was banned). ;)
 * I do not adore any flag whatsoever (well, perhaps the Flag of Nepal you got me), and of course, Montenegro had numerous non-tricolor flags while it was a Princedom. --PaxEquilibrium 23:05, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

well, Nepal flag is also RED-BLUE-WHITE tricolor :)))))))Stefke 00:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it isn't. It just uses those colors.
 * And in the end, yeah; I guess you could say I (admit it) personally like the Blue, White and Red tricolors very much, because to me they are what they are - symbols of Liberty, Fraternity and Equality. --PaxEquilibrium 01:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Huh?
"Independent State of Montenegro"??? --PaxEquilibrium 15:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Straight from the first edit summary: "i'm also aware of a possible naming problem". I have not come across any common name for Montenegro during WWII. Since the Drljevic-Montenegro-Italy situation was reminiscent of the Pavelic-NDH-Germany/Italy situation, I thought Independent State of Montenegro might be appropriate, although obviously the name has no historic basis. It was just my own personal choice (which I definately didn't expect to remain unchanged for so long). --Thewanderer 17:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The official name was "Kingdom of Montenegro"...
 * How about "Montenegro in WWII"? --PaxEquilibrium 22:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Nah, doesn't seem appropriate for a title. Although I don't know what would be... Also, if it was officialy Kingdom of Montenegro, who was the king? Sideshow Bob 22:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The one who immediately succeeded Nicholas I, Mihailo Petrović-Njegoš. --PaxEquilibrium 22:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, Mihailo refused throne. Last days of WWII he had spent in concentration camp!Stefke 23:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

britannica printscreen


ok, Britannica is "unGooglable", but it is still "Print screenable" Stefke 17:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * How many times must I repeat myself? Britannica is not God, and it's wrong at several things. I don't see you using its articles on Montenegrins to dispute the Montenegrin nationhood, that they are "really" Serbs. Even the link you gave says that the tricolor was used only in the beginning. To clarify myself, the WWII Montenegro did use the war flag of King Nicholas. For example, have this Voice of Montenegrins (La Voice del Montenegro) from 7 July 1941. An article dedicated to the "new flag of Montenegro". --PaxEquilibrium 01:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a domestic Montenegrin source. The possibility is that from August to July (just like the other website link you gave, in the beginning) restored the original state symbols, but they didn't correspond the ideology, so they were banned. --PaxEquilibrium 01:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

this La Voice del Montenegro is issued 2nd July 1941, while I.S. Montenegro was "established" on 12th July. Gregorian calendar had been already used in Yugoslavia for more than 20 years, so difference is clearly 10 days earlier. How is it possible?Stefke 13:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This "Kingdom of Montenegro" was starting to be established on April 17 1941, the day KoY was conquered. --PaxEquilibrium 11:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)



1. In article is mentioned "army flag". How about these

?

2. Can you provide me any internet link for this article? Stefke 22:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Not likely, those military flags were not used since the Princedom of Montenegro's independence was recognized at the Congress of Berlin.
 * Will try. --PaxEquilibrium 11:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually one of the sources is the book of the former Mayor of Cetinje, Jovan Markus and his "Montenegrin symbols". If you want, I'll post you the whole newspaper. --PaxEquilibrium 18:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see itStefke 12:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Unsupported claims
I placed citation needed tag for the following claims found in the article:


 * 1. Religion [in Montenegro was] Croatian Orthodox (found in the table)
 * 2. "...at the end of september 1943, the fascist Croatia of Ante Pavelic annexed officially the former italian "Protectorate of Montenegro" and the italian "Provincia di Cattaro" (found in the 'History' section)

Please provide credible sources for these claims or remove them from the article.--FreedonNadd (talk) 03:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Map of ndh.jpg
The image Image:Map of ndh.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --00:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Flag(s) again
Hi, sorry to ask the question again, since I see there already has been a discussion about the flag, but I'd like to make sure in order to develop the french article. Apparently the "Red flag with white eagle" banner was an old war flag. Are you positive it was used by the italian puppet state ? And what was the tricolor flag's use ? Thanks in advance for your help. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 18:09, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I've been looking for sources which describe which flag was used, and coat of arms if any, and have found no concrete answer. This source seems to indicate that an initialed НI royal flag was adopted as a Civil ensign in July 1941 (was previously the Civil ensign during the old principality/kingdom). Another source which mentions flag use is "La vicenda italo-montenegrina", ECIG, Genova, 2002. which says "On 12 July 1941, day of Saint Peter, the Constituent Assembly was opened in Cettinje; it was composed of 65 members, choosen by Mazzolini under suggestion of the Federalist Party. The president was, as for the Consulta, Mihailo Ivanović; this Assembly happened in the Palace of the Zeta, in a room with the flag of the Kingdom of Montenegro during Nikola's reign, King Nikola's, King Vittorio Emanuele's, Queen Elena's and Mussolini's portraits." The wording flag of the Kingdom of Montenegro during Nikola's reign is unfortunately rather vague, as multiple flags were used during his reign of the Kingdom. Lt.Specht (talk) 08:25, 20 August 2010 (UTC)