Talk:Italy/Archive 1

=Comments=

Sport
I suggest it's necessary to add a part about winter sports. Following what I suggest.

Ski (Sci) is very popular in Italy with more than 2.000.000 skiers, most of them in the north and in the center. Italian skiers got very important results in Winter Olimpic Games, World Cup and World Championship. Among them we must remember Gustavo Thoeni that won 4 World Cups between 1970 and 1975; Piero Gros (1974) and Alberto Tomba (1995) won one World Cup. Alberto Tomba, Deborah Compagnoni and Isolde Kostner got many medals in different edition of Winter Olimpic Games. Giorgio Rocca won 2006's World Cup of Slalom.

Winter Sports (Sport invernali) gave many good results to Italy. Among them Italians excell in cross country skiing (sci di fondo) (see Manuela Di Centa, Stefania Belmondo, Silvio Fauner, Giorgio Di Centa and Pietro Piller Cottrer) and luge (slittino), with the three times olimpic gold medal Armin Zoeggler.

Alpinism (Alpinismo) is not very popular in Italy, but Italian alpinists wrote several pages of history in this field. Italians Achille Compagnoni and Lino Lacedelli conquered first the summit of K2 (8611 m) in 1954, in the expedition led by the geologist Ardito Desio. Reinhold Messner was the fist man in the world to reach the 14 summits over 8000 m and the first one to climb Everest alone and without oxygen. Cesare Maestri conquered the Cerro Torre in Patagonia in 1959. Walter Bonatti is considered one of the best alpinist in Europe in the 50's, realizing some ascents considered impossible by the competitors.

History of Italy
Italy was already before Rome centre of important civilisations like the Etruscan and the Greek. Rome was founded in 753 B.C. and the Romans occupied the whole peninsula in the following five centuries. The Italic people became the Roman citizenship after a bloody revolt led by Papio Mutilo and Pompedio Silone (91-89 B.C.). Italy became so the core of the Roman Empire until the capital was relocated from Rome to Constantinople (330 A.D.). In 391 Catholicism became official religion of the Empire and Rome –as seat of the Popes- became the important religion rule which still owns. The collapse of the Western Roman Empire meant for Italy several invasions: the Visigoths, the Huns, the Vandals, the Ostrogoths. The Ostrogoths were defeated by the Eastern Roman Empire after a war which lasted 20 years (534-554). In 568 Italy was occupied by the Longobards. Their hard rule ended with the Franks (774) and so Italy became part of the Holy Roman Empire (800). Sicily was taken by the Arabs (827-1091) who occupied also other parts of the South Italy, like Amantea (Calabria) (840-885), Bari (841-871), and attacked even Rome (846).

In 888 Berengario I built the Medieval Kingdom of Italy with capital Pavia but this independent kingdom was first invaded by the Hungarians (899) and then destroyed by the Germans two times (in 962-964 and in 1015). So it became part of the Holy Roman Germanic Empire. However the birth of the City-States (after 1044) slowly disintegrated the Imperial rule, especially after the battle of Legnano (1176), when the Milanese defeated the German Emperor “Barbarossa”. South Italy, with Naples and Sicily, was conquered by the Normans who established the Kingdom of Sicily (1130) under the Altavilla Dynasty. The Kingdom was taken over in 1194 by the German Swabian Dynasty. Meanwhile the Maritime Republic (Venice, Genoa, and Pisa) created powerful commercial empires in the Eastern part of the Mediterranean Sea and the Black Sea (Crimea). Beginning from 1198 the Struggles of the Parties (Guelphs and Ghibellines) inflicted terrible sufferings to the population. Ezzelino da Romano, leader of the Ghibellines, was defeated in 1259. In 1266 the Anjou Dynasty occupied the Kingdom of Sicily and transferred the capital from Palermo to Naples. The idea of a unification of the country was pursued by the Roman dictator Cola di Rienzo and by the poet Francesco Petrarca (1347) but without success. Nevertheless this attempt showed that the idea of “Nation” was already born.

In 1378 began the Age of the War Lords (“Condottieri”) who fought each other for the numerous City-States: f.e. Alberico da Barbiano, Braccio da Montone, Muzio Attendolo Sforza, Il Carmagnola, Il Piccinino, Il Gattamelata, Il Colleoni, Giovanni dalle Bande Nere. In the North became very important the Dukedom of Milan (under the Dynasties of the Viscontis and of the Sforzas), in the Middle the Seigniory of Florence (under the Medici Dynasty). In the South, in the Kingdom of Naples, the Anjou Dynasty was replaced by the Aragon Dynasty (1443). The Peace of Lodi (1454) was the attempt to establish a balance of power among the 5 Great Powers (Milan, Venice, Florence, Rom, Naples) but the independence of the country was about to be tratened: in 1480 a Turkish attack to South Italy failed the year later but in 1494 the French King Charles VIII inaugurated the sad period of the foreign invasions (French and Spanish). Moreover the Spanish discovery of America destroyed the flourishing Italian economy which was connected with the trades in the Mediterranean Sea. The Sack of Rome (1527) led to the end of the Age of the War Lords. Spain extended its rule to Naples in 1504 and to Milan in 1535, influencing the politicy of the independent Italian States. Nevertheless the remaining Italian States led their policy even after 1535. The power of the Catholic Church hindered a spreading of the protestant ideas in the peninsula. In 1571 the Italian-Spanish fleets defeated the Turkish-Arabian fleet near Lepanto. In 1608 a Tuscan expedition reached the estuary of the Orinoco; Genoa fought against France (1684), Venice defended Crete from the Turks (1645-1669) and conquered Athens (1687) and the Peloponnese (1686-1715). Beginning from 1675 Turin became the most important Italian Power, defeating, with the Austrian help, the French and the Spaniards in the battle of 1706. Vittorio Amedeo II of Savoy established the Kingdom of  Sardinia in 1720 with capital Turin. In the South the independent Kingdom of Naples and Sicily was established by Carlo VII. of Bourbon in 1734. Both kingdoms took part in the War of the Austrian Succession (1740-1748) defeating respectively the Austrians (1744) and the French (1747). Corsica was sold from Genoa to France in 1768 when the revolt of the island became irrepressible. In the latter part of the 18th century the country saw some reforms in the spirit of the Enlightenment. Italy enjoyed a period of relative peace (1748-1792). At that time Venice and Naples owned the most importan navies of the peninsula and the Venetian admiral Angelo Emo led an expedition along the North African coast.

The Italian States declared war on France in 1792-93. The French troops, though the military resistances of Turin (1796) and of Naples (1796, 1799, 1806), occupied the peninsula. The Napoleonic rule was very hard. Napoleon destroyed the free Republic of Genoa and the free Republic of Venice (1797) and destroyed even the Papal States, kidnapping the Pope. In 1810 only Sardinia (under the Savoy Dynasty) and Sicily (under the Bourbon Dynasty) were the only free Italian territories. The Napoleonic rule collapsed in 1814. In 1815 about 18,000 soldiers of the restored Kingdom of Sardinia, supported by the Austrians, were able to invade South France until Lyon. By the Congress of Vienna Austria consolidated its power in Italy keeping Milan (to Austria in 1707) and pulling Venice in. Several revolts to get constitutions filled the time until 1848. Giuseppe Mazzini formulated the idea of an Italian republic but the unification was carried out by the Kingdom of Sardinia. In 1848 the kingdom, supported by other Italian States, declared war on Austria but was defeated (1849). However the process of unification continued under the Premier Camillo Count of Cavour, who sent even troops to fight in the Crimean War against the Russians. A new war against Austria, with French support, led to the the liberation of Milan (1859). A civil war against the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (= Naples-Sicily) (1860-61) (where Giuseppe Garibaldi`s “Red Shirts” played an importan role) led to the proclamation of the Kingdom of Italy (March 17, 1861). First king was Vittorio Emanuele II. In 1866 a new war against Austria, with Prussian support, led to the liberation of Venice. The struggle for Rome between the King and the Pope ended with the royal occupation of the town (September 20, 1870) which became so the capital of the Kingdom of Italy.

In 1878 became king Umberto I. During the “Humbertinian Age” Italy signed an alliance with Germany and Austria-Hungary (1882), started an industrialization, and became a colonial Power, establishing the Colony of Eritrea (1882/1890), the Colony of Italian Somalia (1889/1908), a short-lived Protectorate over Ethiopia (1889-1896) and starting a colonial policy in China (1899). Umberto I was killed by an anarchist in 1900 and new king became his son Vittorio Emanuele III. Under him  Italy conquered Tripoli (1911) and Rhodos (1912). Moreover Italy built a powerful military Navy with battleships and armoured cruisers. On the other hand the social tensions were very strong and the chronic underdevelopment of some parts of the North of the whole South led to a mass emigration to North- and to South America. The industrialization remained limited to the North. Premier Giovanni Giolitti started a moderate social policy. In 1906 strikes became legal. Nevertheless militarism and nationalism became stronger and stronger and led to the First World War. On May 3, 1915 Italy left the alliance with Germany and Austria-Hungary and 20 days later it declared war on Austria-Hungary (on Germany only on August 28, 1916). After 12 bloody battles along the Isonzo River (1915-1917), Italy, by the battle of Vittorio Veneto (Piave River), forced Austria to surrender (November 3, 1918). This victory over Austria hastened even the collapse of Germany. In WWI Italy mobilized 5,615,000 soldiers and lost 680,000 soldiers and 70,000 civilians. The Peace Traty of Paris (1919) granted Italy the possession of Trento, South Tyrol, Trieste, and Istria but Italy wasn`t able to obtain Dalmatia and this failure helped the rise of the nationalist groups (monarchist “Blue Shirts” and fascist “Black Shirts”).

Benito Mussolini, leader of the Fascist Party, took the power in October 1922. In three years (1922-1925) he built the dictatorship. The political police (OVRA) controlled the people and about 30,000 political opposers were persecuted. Fascist Italy was ferocious by the repression of the Libyan revolt (1923-1931). Nevertheless the regime met with growing acceptance due to political successes like the Concordat with the Catholic Church (1929) and the building of a welfare state. In 1935, after the “border incident” of Wal Wal, Italy attacked Ethiopia, though the country was member of the League of Nations. Ethiopia was defeated and Mussolini proclaimed the birth of the Italian Empire (May 9, 1936). In 1937 the Italian troops commited horrible massacres in Ethiopia, f.e. in Addis Ababa and in Debra Libanos. The Ethiopian campaign and the Italian support for General Franco in the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) led Italy to the alliance with Hitler`s Germany (Axis Rome-Berlin) which was formalized in May 1939. In 1937/38 Racist Laws passed to discriminate Africans and Jews. Mussolini tried to postpone the war, due to the unpreparedness of the armed forces, and in 1938 he had the idea of the Munich Agreement to satisfy Hitler`s claims towards the Sudeten. Some months later, in April 1939, he himself occupied Albania which became an Italian Dominion under king Vittorio Emanuele III. When the Second World War broke out, in 1939, Mussolini remained nonbelligerent. The collapse of France gave him the illusion of an easy victory. His aim was to rebuilt a Roman Empire, extended from Tunisia until the Near East, from the Alps until Kenya. On June 10, 1940 Italy entered into the war. The air attack to Malta (June 11, 1940) opened the hostilities against Great Britain and extended the Second World War to the Mediterranean Sea and to Africa. In Summer 1940 the Italian troops invaded parts of Sudan, parts of Kenia, British Somaliland and West Egypt. On September 27, 1940 Italy allied with Germany and Japan (Tripartite Pact) and the country reached so the climax of its power. However the failed invasion of Greece (October-November 1940) and the British counter-offensives in Africa put the Italian Army in a difficult position. The Italian Empire in East Africa was lost on November 27, 1941, though 7,000 scattered Italian soldiers led a guerrilla warfare in East Africa until May/Oct. 1943. The Italian troops in North Africa needed the German support beginning from February 1941. To counterbalance Mussolini sent Italian divisions to support the Germans in Russia (July 1941). On December 11, 1941 Italy (and Germany) declared war on the USA to support the Japanese. In 1942 Italians built a horrible concentration camp for Slovenians and Jews on the island of Arbe (Rab). In Mediterranean Sea the Italian war ships fought several battles against the British Navy between 1940 and 1943, while 32 Italian submarines operated in the Atlantic Ocean. Italian troops fought even fanatically in El Alamein and in Tunisia, but the military defeat became unavoidable. On July, 10 1943 Anglo-American troops landed in Sicily. Heavy air raids (f.e. Foggia, where 20,000 people died), famine, and the fear of  revolutionary developments persuaded the King to arrest Mussolini (July 25) and to accept the unconditional surrender (September 8/29). The surrender was signed on the battleship “Nelson” in front of Malta. Hitler`s reaction was hard: the Germans occupied the North and the Middle Italy and with the liberated Mussolini established the so-called Italian Social Republic (RSI) which rejected the Royal surrender (September 27) and was recognized by Berlin and Tokyo. Fled to the South, the King declared war on Germany (October 13), hoping to save the monarchy and hoping to obtain better peace conditions. Royal Italian troops fought in the bloody battle of Monte Cassino (1943-1944) against the Germans.Soldiers of the RSI fought in Anzio against the British. In June 1944 the King was forced by Washington and London to retire from politics and then a new (pro-western) government were etasblished in Rome. Meanwhile the Northern part of the country became theatre of a brutal civil war between partisans and troops of the RSI. The German troops committed several reprisals like in Marzabotto. The war in Italy ended on May 2, 1945 with the defeat of the Germans and of the RSI. In Istria and Dalmatia about 15,000 Italians were killed by the Yugoslavian partisans. In June 1946 the country became a Republic. The The Peace Treaty (signed at Paris in 1947) meant for Italy heavy losses: Briga and Tenda became French, Istria and Zara (Zadar) became Yugoslavian, Albania became independent again, and Rome lost all its colonies. Moreover Italy had to pay 360,000,000 $ to recover damages of the former occupied countries. Nevertheless the victorious Powers put aside the idea of a trial against the Italian criminals of war, like they did in Germany (in Nürnberg) and in Japan (in Tokyo).

In 1949 the Italian Republic became member of the NATO, in 1955 member of the United Nations. In 1957 it built with France, West Germany, and the Benelux countries the ground of the present European Union. In the 60`the industrialisation of the country made a big progress but between 1969 and 1982 a wave of political violence hit the country. In 1992-94 political scandals led to the end of the most important party (the Democrazia Cristiana) and beginning from this time people call this republic the “2nd Republic”.

Adding Italian Olympic Medals to an EU Medal Count?
Could this be of interest to members of this forum? I created a table with Olympic medal statistics which also includes a total medal count for the entire European Union (among many other things). The original article is here: Olympic Medal Statistics: Medal Count Winners. Recently, however, someone nominated this article for deletion. If you want to comment on whether it really should be deleted, go to this article's entry. Thanks! Medalstats 15:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

ACamposPinho 1:03, 2 July 2006
 * EU isn't a country. The part of the article that include EU-medals in total should be deleted.

Amelia, Umbria
I have just created a page for the city of Amelia in the Umbria region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_italy

It would be helpful if one (or more) of the experienced hands around here would edit the page, first to make sure that it meets the usual standard in terms of layout and such, second to do what ever is deemed necessary to render it an acceptable article in terms of content. Third, there may be reasons to link the page to other articles in Wikipedia so that it integrates well within the "Italy" and "Umbria" sections of this site. As I noted in the discussion area for this article, I wrote this for a private website which is targeted at travelers, so it is not backed-up with citations to primary, secondary or even tertiary academic works. I see that the title of the article is "Amelia, Italy" and even that may be an incorrect way to title it. It's my first attempt at an article, so please forgive anything that is untoward.JVian 19:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Ladin
Source wikipedia: Ladin is a Rhaetian language spoken in the Dolomite mountains Even if the name is similar to Latin Ladin belongs to the same family as French. Are you sure?--Johnhardcastle 11:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Ladin, together with Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Rumenian, is a Neolatin language.
 * Alex2006 06:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Italian euro coins
I think it is not appropriate to state that Italian Euro coins is a currency in Italy. If we do so - in order to be consequent - we have to put in all other national variants of the Euro coins as well (since those are "legal tender" in Italy as well). Additionally there is a difference between currency and legal tender, thus the Euro is the sole currency of Italy.143.224.66.243 16:06, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC) Yes but they are most commonly used when you're visiting. Poolco 22:32, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

coat of arms
there is an error: Italy, like France, doesn't have a coat of arms. the symbol claimed as coa is in reality the 'NATIONAL EMBLEM' that figures on public documents and passports. should correct this user:Aytharn

Weird categories
Beautiful Women? Beautiful Men? Is that really a necessary category? Danny Hi Gianfranco, I'm not looking for a flame war with anybody, but Wikipedia articles have to be broadly acceptable to some broad conensus of opinion at least. My point about translations was that too many overload an article and disrupt its reading: they should be placed in the first sentence of the article on each specific topic. As a general introductory survey, the article didn't need to single out Fascism for an assessment which was indeed controversial to some of us: no other political movement was discussed. I personally think that "beautiful" (above) is a subjective judgment which should be left out: and I don't think most of the people named there rate a link from the main country page (while the companies should be linked from "Economy"): had I wanted conflict I'd have removed those lists in their entirety, but I didn't. User:David Parker.
 * (sorry for late answer)
 * I am glad to hear that it is only a matter of consensus. The sentence used in the summary sounded quite more direct.
 * However, I regret that the assessment was controversial; I agree instead that the less we talk about fascism, the less we risk to wander in the smoke of a fire that was extinguished too little ago, not enough time ago. It doesn't happen casually, I believe, that in Italy we still continuously have public debates on fascism: let's say that just for TV, we have an average of a serious debate or an important documentary movie, more or less every 10-20 days, in prime time. We are nevertheless in our society, with sufference but with intention, trying to solve some "controversial" points, here where the civil war actually was run after the fascism, and we are nearly forgetting those times (maybe still 30-20 years ago) in which only propaganda, from both fascists and communists, was the sole content of any political debate, a time we lived in which we could not easily obtain from historians an unbiased support. The terms "Fascist" or "communist", are now in decreasing frequency being used as insults; still they are not compliments yet, but we hear them every day less. I wish our grandsons will be able to look at 20th century with serenity.
 * BTW, just to close the point, it was somehow difficult to discuss about other political movements, since the fascist party was the only one, as in every "respectable" dictatorship. Being the fascist one a state-party (partito-stato, a movement whose events coincided with the political life of its country), it would also be hard to make a comparison with other political entities of prior or later times. It could perhaps be useful to compare fascism with nazism or communism, but I have seen that this has not been made in better appropriated (and deep) articles. Or, maybe the best approach, we could compare italian history to what happened in other countries, but this would require a complex work and any concise synthesis might result controversial.
 * I also agree that italian names are better recalled when in appropriate articles, but I found them already in the page when I read it the first time, it's not a "creation" of mine. And I agree that italian firms seem to deserve a better destination than the main country page; rather than for a listing in the economical page, where they could be excessive, I would dare propose something related to "Made in Italy", if some consensus can eventually be found on the reflection that italian economy is peculiarly composed by a huge number of small firms, resulting in a particular working tradition, which is now a commercial quality too.
 * About beauty... well, it could also be a strange list, indeed; might I remember, however, that in Wikipedia there are pages about Sex symbols, which could regard similarly subjective judgements, based on even more subjective factors, but in a more explicit sense. We don't necessarily link beauty to sex, in this strange country, even if we deeply love both. :-) - Gianfranco

Campione d'Italia offical currency is the Swiss franc?
removed the following footnote from the table: "In the enclave town of Campione D'Italia surrounded by Switzerland is the only place where the Swiss Franc is also legal tender". A similar controversy in the Germany wiki is being disccusse talk:Germany (Büsingen am Hochrein and Swiss francs). These are the reason to remove Campione d'Italia:

1. One have to distinguish between currency, legal tender and just the general acceptance of money without a legal basis.

1. The only currency in whole of Italy is the euro?

2. Legal tender are Euro banknotes and Eurocoins of all countries, which are authorised to mint them.

TheWikipedian

Official language
I think Slovene is NOT an official language in Italy. It's only officially recognized and allowed to be used in contacts with public administration etc. See LEGGE 23 febbraio 2001, n. 38 "Norme a tutela della minoranza linguistica slovena della Regione Friuli-Venezia Giulia", art. 8 and 9.

Actually, I guess Italian is the only official language in Italy. Other languages are given special privilege, but they are not established as official languages. Boraczek 09:08, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I learned that French and German are co-official in some regions too. But that's all. Slovene, Ladin and Friulian are not official languages. Boraczek 09:36, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Elf-friend wrote: German and French are regional languages and NOT OFFICIAL languages of Italy.

I believe German is an official language in South Tyrol (even if it is not an official language of Italy). Please confer Statuto speciale per il Trentino-Alto Adige, art. 99-101.

I also believe French is an official language in the Aosta Valley. Please confer Statuto speciale per la Valle d'Aosta, art. 38 Boraczek 10:24, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

These languages may have some special or co-official status in some of the regions of Italy, but they are not official languages of the whole of Italy, and putting information like this in this section of the taxobox is potentially misleading and confusing to more uninformed readers. If you want to note some special or co-official status of these languages, may I suggest that you put a "footer" in the taxobox, similar to the one in the Denmark article?

I did not mean to be too "sharp" in my edit summary comment or deletion of the info, but I sometimes get the feeling that there is some sort of "campaign" to add German as an official language to countries where it has no or a lesser official status - for example, I've had to revert the Namibia article several times in order to remove the faulty information that it is an official language there. Thanks for your positive approach to this issue.

Regards, Elf-friend 11:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * German used to be one of the official languages of Namibia until recently, so these editors probably just didn't know that it is no longer the case. -- Naive cynic 12:26, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)


 * German was never an official language of Namibia (who changed it from Afrikaans and English to just English when they achieved independence), nor even of its predecessor, South-West Africa. I think you'll have to go back to the start of the previous century when it was still German South-West Africa in order to find any official status for it at all. Elf-friend 08:40, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Afrikaans: "Prior to [Namibian] independence, Afrikaans, along with German, had equal status as an official language." -- Naive cynic 09:30, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

I think what you suggest is a good idea. Thank you for your contribution. Boraczek 11:57, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm glad we could resolve this amicably. :-) Elf-friend 12:04, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Actually, Italy's Law 482/1999 grants official status at a local level to the following languages and idioms: Albanian, Alguerese Catalan, German, Greek, Slovenian, Croatian, French, Franco-Provençal, Ladin, Occitanic, Sardinian. The footer might therefore need a different wording. FrancescoMazzucotelli 16:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

regarding German as an official language: it is fully only in South Tyrol (Alto Adige), as far as the other province is concerned(Trentino) it can be used only within and in the relationship with the political body (the little "parliament" of the whole region (Trentino-Alto Adige).

Italian is the official language, of couse!!!

Flag of Italy
I see that the flag depicted in the article has a rather grayer color instead of white. Clicking on it to go to the image's page, the guy says that this is a new flag by Berlusconi.

Has there an official change *truly* been made to the flag? If not, have the old flag show that the Flag of Italy page also depicts. Aris Katsaris 07:19, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The official website of the Italian presidency doesn't mention anything about a change. Furthermore Image:Italy new flag.png states that white changed to ivory white, but the image itself shows some sort of grey and not ivory white which is slightly yellowish. I think we should revert the change in the article and delete the image. Gugganij 20:50, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Reverted the page. Aris Katsaris 23:04, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

currency
I removed Italian euro coins for the following reason: The only and sole currency in Italy is the Euro. Italian euro coins together with banknotes and all other "national" euro coins are legal tender (which is something different than a currency). kr 143.50.221.5 21:55, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That's true, but you removed a link to a valid page for no valid reason. RickK 22:02, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I removed Italian euro coins from the table, since they are not the currency in Italy. Why shouldn't this be a valid reason? Gugganij 17:51, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * It's not a valid reason, because Italian euro coins are still the type of Euro coins that are being *minted* in Italy. Even though all Euro coins are legal currency, why does it hurt you if a link is included where we can see those Euro coins that are specifically Italian? If you don't want it to be in the cell itself, perhaps we can add a footnote, but that might be a bit messy given how a footnote for that cell already exists. Aris Katsaris 18:01, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, I thought the table ought to give a concise overview of the country's main features. If someone would like to dig deeper, he just has to click on Euro. By the way, I think the UK has one pound coins from England, Scotland and Wales as well (which can be easily distinguished from each other - like the "national" euro coins) - one might regard this as a similar case. None of them are mentioned in the tables of the respective articles (see Scotland and England)


 * I thought I would let everyone know that I corrected a link for footnote 2 in the statistics chart. The term "Italian Lira" was linking to "Lira," which is fine, but there now seems to be a very similar, but more comprehensive entry just for the Italian lira at "Italian lira"("Italian Lira" is a redirect to the lowercase version.)

Provincial nomenclature
After dinking a bit with Cuneo and Province of Cuneo, it seems to me that we need to be more consistent about the distinction between city and province. Not only do we have mixed-up links, but some names are listed in multiple categories, and it will look pretty weird to have both city and province tables in the same article. Finally, the interwiki links can't be made to work right if we have one article and the Italians and Germans have two. To be consistent with other languages, I suggest putting the city at "Name" and the province at "Province of Name", which is more of a literal translation, although "Name Province" would be OK too. "Name (province)" seems less desirable, because lots of text will want to include "Province" so as to make things clearer for readers. Stan 00:12, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Anthem
"Fratelli d'Italia" is the first verse of the Anthem, not its name: the real name is name of the poem composed by Goffredo Mameli, "Il Canto degli Italiani". I think that should be corrected.


 * Be bold on Wikipedia - You can edit it yourself! However, I will do it this time, just to make sure it doesn't get forgotten. --Golbez 16:00, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
 * Actually, hold that - You need to definitely edit Fratelli d'Italia first, since that states it's the anthem. Since I don't know more about the subject, I leave this to those who do. --Golbez 16:01, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

I know I can change it! ;-) I am not knew to wiki-like tools, it's only that I wanted to discuss that change before actually applying it.


 * OK, just making sure :) And it was a good idea, since we have a whole article on Fratelli d'Italia that states it's the national anthem. --Golbez 13:54, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

National Motto
Perhaps it would be better to entirely remove "National Motto" as there is none to prevent further vandalism. Jcr2 10:52, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Is there a noteworthy explanation for the absence of a national motto which could be briefly referenced in the same space with a link to a more detailed explanation in the body of the article? Fsotrain09 21:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * No. Simply noone ever felt the need for a "motto".--Panairjdde 08:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Infobox
Moved to template:Italy infobox.--Jerryseinfeld 17:07, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Why? Gzornenplatz 17:59, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)


 * United States uses one and I find it rather neat and convenient. Do you disagree with its use there? --Golbez 19:29, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)


 * Most country articles do not use a template for the infobox, and I don't see what's convenient about having to edit the box separately from the rest of the article. Either you would need to have an ugly edit link within the article window to edit the template, or if not, you'd have to type in "Template:Italy infobox" by hand into your browser address bar. Surely it's easier just to be able to click on "Edit this page" to edit all parts of the page, including the infobox. Templates are for things that are to be used in several different articles, which is never the case for a country infobox. The only justification may be if a country article gets too long, but this is not the case here either. Gzornenplatz 20:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)


 * Fair enough; I'll agree mostly on the "size" grounds. In fact, now that you mention it, that negates a lot of templates I've seen lately ({Politics of Antigua and Barbuda}?), perhaps this objection should be brought up on the pump if it already hasn't been. I guess at 39k without the infobox, United States is big enough to justify it. --Golbez 20:54, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)


 * Right. And Template:Politics of Antigua and Barbuda is used in several different articles, so it's justifiable too. Gzornenplatz 21:05, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Have you noticed how you can click on the "[edit]" text on top and to the right of a "section" to edit a "section" by itself? Perhaps you want to disable that to?--Jerryseinfeld 21:57, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Have you noticed that that is a preferences option? I already have disabled that for me. Gzornenplatz 22:07, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Really? Oh, boy.--Jerryseinfeld 23:09, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I just saw Requests for arbitration/Gzornenplatz, Kevin Baas, Shorne, VeryVerily, arbitration, ouch.--Jerryseinfeld 00:51, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * What's your point? That has nothing to do with this conversation. Are you going to be confrontational about this, or civil? --Golbez 01:56, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * I have no particular interest in any of these issues, but it does seem to me that Jerryseinfeld is right to be concerned given Gzornenplatz's explicit refusal to obey the basic Wikipedia guidelines. If anyone is not being civil, it is Gzornenplatz, not Jerryseinfeld.  Oh, boy, indeed! And ouch, too! Deleting Unnecessary Words 00:32, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * He has done his time, and your input here is unncessary - just like your name. --Golbez 03:20, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * And yet a revert war is developing on the page, without the issues being properly hashed out here. Oh, boy!  Ouch!! Deleting Unnecessary Words 00:24, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Italy-geo-stub, and Europe map
Three items:
 * 1) Within the next half-hopur, there will be a new template available - Template:Italy-geo-stub, for any Italian geography related stubs.
 * 2) I note that the European "Location of italy" map near the top of this article seems to incude Istria and Rijeka as part of Italy., I think that should probably be fixed!
 * 3) Finally - I hope no-one minds, but I did a quick edit of the equals signs on this page so that the ToC reads correctly! Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 03:55, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

History incomplete w/o colonial and military occupation episodes
Colonnial and WWII occupation episodes are essential and indisputable facts of Italian history. Should be in this article if only as pointers to more detailed treatment. Judging by space ... more important than the king's exile! MGTom 11:18, 2005 Feb 17 (UTC)


 * It is true that Italian history is incomplete without colonial and military occupation episodes, but I strongly believe these should be moved to History of Italy. This section should be rewritten to a quick walkthrough of Italian history, from pre-Roman age to modern times. What do you think about? --Panairjdde 15:37, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Furthermore: writing massive war crimes requires far more documentation that the three links present in Italian war crimes.--Panairjdde 16:20, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

(IMHO) let us say, one may want to take a look at the whole structure of the Italy Wiki. And consider how to organise the network of articles. I can agree that the general introductory article should contain the basic statements that give the first impression about the subject to one that sees it first and a essentially (one of) the lists of pointers to more in-dept material. What the cover article need not to be is a showcase only of positive characteristics of the subject. It is not a commercial leaflet. An encyclopedia "sells" not (only) beauty but interesting topics. Wikipedia is a new kind of encyclopedia, and it "sells" also new dimensions of discourse. There, in the discourse, you find this: "in social sciences a discourse is considered to be an institutionalized way of thinking, a social boundary defining what can be said about a specific topic. Discourses are seen to affect our views on all things; in other words, it is not possible to escape discourse" (I bolded a part of the quote from WIki.

Alternative way through the maze of knowledge in Wikipedia (amazing!) is through the Categories. The problem that I see in Italy complex is the dominance of a deep-branching. Down from "Italy" to "war crimes of WWII" you would have to step through 4 levels. That is more or less a matter of taste and how you want to work. There should be a systematic branching, but also shortcuts through lists that are not so much branched, (no more than two levels, longer lists of articles in each). More on the "Italy" wish list in another section, where I confirm the interest of having many (esential) facets of the charming Italy in the top-level list/article also. MGTom 11:44, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)


 * I am just commenting that highlighting episodes which happened in 2/3 years (war crimes or king exile or whatelse) is far from a correct approach, if you are telling the history of a country that lasts more than 30 centuries. And I keep on supporting the argument that History part should be rewritten. As regards the distance between Italy and Italian war crimes, note that it is natural (IMO) a break Italy -> history -> wars -> war crimes, with all episodes from different wars listed in a single page. If you think war crimes should go into first page, this first page should contain such a large collection of information it would be unreadable. --Panairjdde 12:30, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Italia - beautiful in diversity
Before making any edits in that direction, I would like to check the opinion that really a subject, especially such an amazing one as Italy, is defined equaly by its core as its expanse in diversity. To my opinion the following items would deserve attention in the introductory article also: (on history)
 * 800 (?) years of different history between the North and the South.


 * It deserves a mention. Just few words. --Panairjdde 13:49, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * 5 of the 6 traditional captials (Torino, Milano, Venezia, Firenze, Roma, Napoli) lost their position at unification.


 * Not necessary, but implicit --Panairjdde 13:49, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Italy of Fascism and the (second?)strongest Resistance movement


 * Already present. I do not know of relative strenght of resistance movements, however. --Panairjdde 13:49, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

not to forget also anecdotal issues
 * two traditions in the quisine: the olive and the butter


 * To include only if there's a cuisine section --Panairjdde 13:49, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In any case, the history of Italy as a state starts with the unification, so that the diversity (not only unity and "Italy as the only name?" cf.: Magna Grecia, the Appeninian Peninsula, various kingdoms ...) may be in place. Italy contributes a lot to the divesity of Europe, now it is European history! + more


 * For further Wikipedic explanation of the desire see please general comment in MGTom  12:32, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)

On some difficult subjects
Here is a copy of part of discussion previouslu in the "Beutiful in diversity" section

on "furbi e fessi"

 * the Italy of "furbi" and "fessi" and their (percentual) relations


 * Useless and difficult matter. To avoid, IMO --Panairjdde 13:49, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * May be taken up in a different approach ... diversity of European oppinions, or something, if we find a good sociological reference. This has to do with relations to the government (taxes), how peple percieve solidarity. Significant differences with e.g. Scandinavia! MGTom 14:26, 2005 Feb 23 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what you mean, please write down some text. --Panairjdde 11:31, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Proposed Giuseppe Prezzolini entry
Giuseppe Prezzolini is an author that should be taken note of & extracted. Of course this is in the "alternate route to Italy". Sources such as: [http://www.geocities.com/cnalin21205/filosofiitaliani/prezzolini.htm Actual popular lore has it as : ... contesto che è.... quello della società italiana; ebbene più di qualcuno ne ha analizzato pregi e difetti a cominciare da Giuseppe Prezzolini il quale già nel 1917 scriveva che gli italiani si dividono in FURBI e FESSI e delineava le caratteristiche degli uni e degli altri: 1) il furbo è sempre in un posto che si è meritato non per le sue capacità, ma per la sua abilità a fingere di averle, 2) colui che sa è un fesso; colui che riesce senza sapere è un furbo, 3) i fessi hanno dei principi; i furbi soltanto dei fini, 4) non bisogna distinguere il furbo con l'intelligente: l'intelligente è spesso un fesso anche lui. E così via. Automatic translation: "a wider context that is that one of the Italian society; well more than someone it has analyzed some pregi and defects to begin from Giuseppe Prezzolini which already in 1917 it wrote that the Italians divide themselves in CLEVER and CLEAVED and it delineated the characteristics of the uni and the others:

1) the clever one is always in a place that has been deserved not for its abilities, but for its ability to pretend to have them,

2) $R-he who knows is cleaving; $R-he who succeeds without knowledge is a clever one,

3) the cleaved ones has of the principles; the clever ones only of the ends,

4) it does not have to distinguish the clever one with the intelligent one: the intelligent one is often cleaved also he.

And therefore via."

The automatic translator has it as: furbi: clever, fessi: cleaved ... does it go as a good translation?

It seems that Prezzolini himself was not amply translated to English, but he has some remarkable and probably correct (in his historic context) observations. MGTom 14:26, 2005 Feb 27 (UTC)


 * I don't really think this quote from an obscure philosopher is important in Italy main page. Just write down, if you want, a page on Prezzolini, and categorize it. --Panairjdde 09:28, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * The automatic translator has it as: furbi: clever, fessi: cleaved ... does it go as a good translation? I am Italian, but my English is not perfect. furbi has a negative connotation: if you are furbo it means that you are clever and smart, but you are using your qualities for egoistic advantage against others. In modern language, the expression i furbi (those who are furbi) denotes the people that do not contribute in a positive way to the society or act againts the laws. For example, someone who doesn't pay taxes is a furbo. In recent news, the people involved in a not-so-clear financial plot were called furbetti:  http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furbetti_del_quartierino --Andrea Censi 21:50, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Italy - Name
I have added the etymology of the word Italia. please consider keeping this as it has been accpted by many historians. before deleting, please discuss here. I tried to include only basic FACTS and mot much speculation. espo111jun 2, 2005

(material dated before Feb. 24. 05 on Italy - name moved here.
 * Dispute on name started from a note, which was rather one of "economy of space", the paragraph on the name being a relatively long one.MGTom


 * Well it is true that the name was the same for longest time (Magna Graecia was a name for a part of Italy, never heard of Appenninian Peninsula). --Panairjdde 13:49, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Take a look at the reference for the Italy name claim! It is a Saturday journal short note, unsigned, from 1827 (sic!). Italia is in any case an ancient name, but until maybe 1500 used mostly for the central parts of the penninsula. In Roman times (Italic tribes were their early enemies!), North was Galia Cisalta and also later regional names were dominant, inclusing of course Etruria and the islands. Interesting cases are also of the Friuli & the Friulan, which is considered to be a Rhetian (Alpine group) of Romance languages than Italic, and also Venetian, presumably more related to the Catalan and even French than Italian. I am sure that on a global scale the case of the longevity of name Italy is not very exceptional. On the other hand, the details that I mention make an Encyclopedia interesting for the inquisitive mind! Unity in diversity! MGTom 14:26, 2005 Feb 23 (UTC)


 * Take a look at, for the motto ... (a vandalism that should be corrected) and the appelation, which is the one of two European that I know do not derive from "Italia". In Hungarian it is Olaszorszag, in Polish it is: Wlochy . For at least these relatively near neighbours Italia was historically not relevant?! (ASCII characters used in Hu and Pl names!!)MGTom  14:41, 2005 Feb 23 (UTC)


 * First of all, I am not defending that reference. If you want to remove it because of the source, be bold and remove it. I am just saying it is correct. As regards the name Italia, the name was used initially to indicate the zone from Tuscany to Calabria – apart the Italic peoples you referred, also the Greeks living in the peninsula were called italòs by those living in Sicily. This is not against the sentence we are writing of, since it simply says that the name was used for this part of country for more than 25 centuries. Will you admit that this is true, at least? (just as side node, indent your text, it is easier to read the 'thread'). As regards Hungarian and Polish names: your point would be interesting, if supported with etimologies of those words, otherwise it is impossible to judge. --Panairjdde 11:31, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * There is not much to disagree about ... we came close. Please - everybody - improve the text that I bolded to write.MGTom 23:49, 2005 Feb 24 (UTC)

____________________

Sì come ad Arli, ove Rodano stagna, sì com'a Pola, presso del Carnaro ch'Italia chiude e suoi termini bagna,

Dante Alighieri, La Divina Commedia, Inferno, Canto IX (113-115)

Even as at Arles, where stagnant grows the Rhone, Even as at Pola near to the Quarnaro, That shuts in Italy and bathes its borders,

English translation: The Divine Comedy at wikisource

Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321, two centuries before 1500s!!

As for Roman times North of Italia was Gallia Cisalpina, not cisalta.
 * Italy name is much more old than the name France, England not to speak of others.

ACamposPinho 1:10, 2 July 2006

Expanding the article
I know there's a lot of capable writers out there and my concern is addressed to those writers interested in expanding this article. I think Italy's Wikipedia entry, in comparison to other countries, is unrepresentative of it's greatness and historical significance. I am no history buff, but I know there's plenty of information and media that can be added to this entry. I encourage anyone who can add more detail to this article to proceed.

Thank you.

"Tourism in Italy"
That small article is not worth a helluva lot, and should prolly be folded in here. The links there for example are a vehicle for some arbitrarily picked places, and most of them don't deal with tourism in Italy, merely championing various destinations. Similarly, the rest of the article is not mostly about tourism, but about Italy, and very arbitrary in its choices and vague in its statements. Bill 16:14, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Link removed
I've just removed a link to a photographic site, that has some pictures of Italy, on the grounds that there are, very literally, thousands of personal sites that do, and this one (a) has relatively few such photos; (b) is not centered on Italy; (c) provides no information on what is shown, just the barest of captions; and finally, (d) is in fact commercial link spam. Before anyone gets too upset, note that my own site with over 1300 photos and a thousand or so actual pages of text on Italy, including at least 5 books, is a far better Italian resource, on all 4 grounds (including that I have no commercial interest) &mdash; yet I wouldn't dream of adding it to the links on this page, because it doesn't cover all of Italy. Bill 15:18, 30 May 2005 (UTC)


 * i would not object to having your link in the page, as you said no commercial interest. but are your photos and books in the public domain? if not then i would leave out the link, however if public -- no objection here. User:Espo111


 * Hi Frank; my prose is not the clearest, and, as very often happens, I get misunderstood. I'm not seeking to add a link to my site here: I'm pointing out that I myself would actually object to anyone putting such a link on the Italy page, because my site is not comprehensive enough &#8212; let alone some site with two or three slight pages! On the Umbria page, for example, I have no such qualms, since my Umbria site is comprehensive. (And no, the photos taken by me on my site are emphatically not public domain, neither is the original material; the non-original material, yes, is clearly marked as public domain. See each individual page. I don't tolerate copyvio on my own site any more than on Wikipedia.) Don't forget to sign your comments, by the way. Bill 19:33, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

new map of Italy
I am creating a new map of Italy. if anyone has an objection to the current map please make your objection known
 * You should tell us what are you going to change, in comparison with the current map.--Panairjdde 06:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

well i would like to put either a province map or a region map, that is political division within the country.

how should i do it?
 * It already exists, see Image:Italy Regions Latium 220px.png, for an example of regional division. Provincial division is more problematic, since there are more than 110 provinces, and they are in the process to add others. However, I do not think that adopting a region-based image would be better than the current image. Please, sign your posts, it's the second from right button.--Panairjdde 08:32, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * i see now. ok no region map.--espo111 05:25, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Another link removed
It's with some regret that I just removed a link to a photosite. This one was far better than the one above (Talk:Italy), in that (a) there are more photos, 546 of them plus a few of Mont Blanc; and (b) the subsite is centered on Italy; but it still (c) provides very little information about Italy, many of the photos being tourist shots of flowers etc., and with just the barest captions (occasionally wrong) and (d) remains a commercial site which in fact is not primarily about Italy, but designed to sell photographs. Some of the photographs are beautiful, though. Maybe Wikipedia should have a separate article logging the better Italy sites? Bill 18:49, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * i would really like to create a site, or find one, that has public domain pictures of italy, and only italy. i have a lot of photos, many not "touristy." any ideas?

--espo111 21:45, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Frank (this is no longer exactly Wikistuff, but no reason for me not to help!!), most people who take good photographs, myself included, don't give away our rights to them, so you'll find precious few sites that put the pix in the public domain; I won't say you won't find any at all, but in 10 years online, I can't remember ever seeing one. As for creating such a site yourself, well it would be very generous of you; it's also a terrific amount of hard work, that part I speak about from experience. The problem lies only in part in scanning decent photos: a photograph is really not worth too much without good explanations, which goes far beyond the level of just some caption. "Façade of the cathedral of Orvieto", for example, though a start, is really not that useful or informative. So on my own site, I find that an average page, with 3 or 4 photos, takes a full day to put up, of which the scanning accounts for less than 20% of the time: the rest is writing intelligent text. And at the beginning, until you settle into a pattern, you'll have a longish start-up curve, setting the look-and-feel of your site. I'll be glad to discuss, or even conceivably, depending on exactly what you're trying to do, host stuff; we can continue this by e&#8209;mail &#8212; Best, Bill 23:06, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Question
By the time of emperor Augustus approximately, current territory of Italy was included in Italia as the central unit of the Empire; Cisalpine Gaul, the Upper Po valley, for example was appended in 42 B.C. Ever since, "Italy" or "Italian" was the collective name for diverse states appearing on the peninsula and their overseas properties.

Can someone explain the meaning of the last sentence of this paragraph, because I'm not sure I understand it. Has the name "Italians" been used since 42BC to describe what exactly? The diverse states of Italy? What states? The Western Roman Empire falls 5 centuries after the given date so I don't know how the medieval Italian states have any connection to 42BC. I get the impression that this abstract POV statement tries to promote the nationalistic myth that Roman Empire == Italy and ancient Romans == Italians. Miskin 14:07, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * It's not very clear, but (apart for "overseas properties") doesn't seem to promote anything. I'll rewrite it. Bill 15:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * What gives you guys the right to decide who are Romans and who are not? Why don't you ask some real Italians if they feel directly descended from ancient Italians namely Romans. What do you think happened in the fifth century, some aliens came down and took all the Romans away and replaced them with modern Italians. Just because you guys can't wrap your head around the fact that this nation once controlled more than half of Europe and the entire Med littoral, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I hope some time in the future someone says the same crap about the British Empire. I am just sick and tired of reading these blantant biggoted comments from non-Italians. If you guys hate the country so much, why don't write about something you like. Don't you have anything better to do. Everything bad about Italy is highlighted, racial and ethnic conflicts, Italy is on the African plate, the south, etc. I would like to see a comparison of other countries and see if their pages/discussions are as complementary. Aren't there any Italians who want to contribute to this page?03:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

This is the English Wikipedia written from the point of view of the English speaking world. Go write a beautiful, POV article about Italy and the glory that WAS Rome on the Italian Wikipedia site in Italian.
 * "This is the English Wikipedia written from the point of view"..., "Go write a beautiful POV article about Italy".

You crack me up.

Baldassare Castiglione vs. Baldassarre Castiglione
Both are correct, or at least the name Baldassare/Baldassarre has been routinely spelled both ways for centuries. Wikipedia chose the former spelling, though; so the change to the latter just winds up redirecting; I reverted merely to avoid a redirect. Bill 12:57, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Separatism
I've noticed that there's no mention in this article about the small sort of racial conflict between Northern Italians and Southern Italians. Because some Northern Italians feel superior over the Southern Italians. Those tiny groups of Northern Italians want to create their own idependent state and name it Padania I believe. I was wondering, does anybody know how to put and integrate all of this information into the article?--Gramaic 3 July 2005 01:32 (UTC)


 * For starters, Mezzogiorno has some material, and the political consequences under Padania for example. Bill 9 July 2005 18:25 (UTC)


 * I removed the part about "separatist Northern Italian political party that views Southern Italians, particularly the Mezzogiorno region in Southern Italy, to be inferior to Northern Italians". If someone wants to put back the text, should provide evidence for that.--Panairjdde 13:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


 * It looks like Gramaic wants to start and edit war about this point. I will not remove his statement now, but I think that he has to support with evidence his claims, both about separatism and racism of Lega Nord. If he does not present any support, I will remove the text. Furthermore, note that the text is in the wrong part, since it should be under "Politcs", not under "History".--Panairjdde 14:34, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * While the separatism and racism etc. are real minority viewpoints and therefore problems, short of a systematic section on Problems Facing Modern Italy, which would include a number of other more serious problems (Mafia, terrorism, immigration, integration into the European Union, the stifling effects of bureaucracy, the unresolved questions of national identity, some of them relating to the r&ocirc;le of the Catholic Church, etc. But a simple assertion of the separatism question, especially in the way in which it has been sketched out, is merely bad manners and invidious, and definitely not NPOV. Those interested, and who read Italian, may read a long-standing previous version of the Italian Wikipedia article Stati Uniti d'America, in which, under "Contraddizioni" I think it was, a long vagary on racism and the death penalty was inserted &#8212; Europeans of a certain stripe are much given to pontificating on those two items; but to their credit over at I&#8209;Wiki, they removed that, on much the same grounds. Bill 18:09, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I just removed the paragraph from the section until I provide some reliable sources. I never meant to have anyone think that I intended to start an edit war with anyone. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 04:50, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Improvement Drive
The article Culture of Italy has been listed to be improved on This week's improvement drive. You can add your vote there if you would like to support the article.--Fenice 06:29, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Another link removed
Today's link addition (Italy Pictures by Eric Burritt) was 90 photos of Rimini, 10 of Florence, 8 of Rome, and 6 of Venice. That's not good enough coverage of Italy to qualify as a resource for all of Italy. (For Rimini, OK.) Bill 20:24, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

And today's was 219 photos, alright: but almost all of Liguria, the Alps, and Genoa, with a smattering of almost random shots of Milan, Udine, Rome, and Tuscany. This is neither representative nor adequate coverage &mdash; all of it except Rome in N Italy, and even there, no Venice, for example. Bill 19:13, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

And today's ("KubFoto") was 7 regions (out of 20); as a spot check, Lombardy was covered by a total of 15 photos of three cities; Tuscany by only two cities (Florence and Livorno), not really adequate; and all these photos uncaptioned. No dice.... Bill 20:48, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Geography & Italian peninsula
I think there should be add in the geography section or maybe in an article on its own, the difference between the Italian state and the Italian peninsula. Accordind to geographers AFAIK, Italian peninsula is composed of the territories of the ITalian state plus the area of Nice (Nizza), the Italian speaking Switzerland (Ticino Canton + some valleys of Grisons) and Istria (belonging to Slovenia and Croatia). Some territories (Livingo) are part of the Italian state but not of the peninsula.

What to do you think?? User:128.178.155.76 (who forgot to sign)


 * A peninsula is a term of geographical relief, and as such the language spoken doesn't enter into the matter. The relief boundaries of Italy do not include the formerly Italian areas of France nor (most of) those of Istria, since the Alps in the former, the mountains along the Isonzo in the latter case, delimit the peninsula quite clearly. Extending an "Italian peninsula" to areas beyond the relief boundaries starts leaning toward supporting a backdoor NPOV Italian claim to territories once Italy's but that are not now, a little bit like calling Louisiana a French peninsula. . . . Bill 15:39, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The italian peninsula is generally defined by the bounderies of the Alps and mediterrenean sea. (not understand at all why the Isonzo should be the limit.. why this river and not other one? I did not find support for this) That's mean that for sure canton Ticino is part of the italian peninsula (they are south of the alps, in fact the central swiss call them "transalpines") and the county of Nice. For Istria, I was not sure, but I checked on my Atlas and it says so. We don't have to be conditioned by politics, discussing a geographical post, that's completely silly. To be politically corrected we could say "some consider also ... as geographically part of the italian peninsula"-

Link (kept!)
The UltimateItaly link is not exactly representative of the whole country, but says so; the selection is fairly wide, the material is fairly good, the site is nonprofit. As a site covering Italy it's still marginal &mdash; but marginal it is, and all I did was move it to after the official sites. Bill 10:34, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

ItalianVisits added
I have added ItalianVisits.com because, even though it is a marginally commercial site, it is one of the most comprehensive sites about Italy, including information and photographs for all regions, their capital cities, and dozens of other locales in Italy. We have made a significant effort to refer readers to Wikipedia articles for additional information. We are adding pages and photos for other places throughout Italy, so that each regional section is as complete say, as the section on Calabria.

I understand this addition might be controversial, so I am very happy to discuss this. ---JVian 16:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Links, continued
I removed the currency site; on inspection, it turned out to be mostly "in construction": experience shows that this means an unfinished site: most of such sites never get finished at all. In its present state some bizarre currencies (not even the mainstream bills) don't merit a link here.

I also removed the most recent photogallery, which is, more or less, an idiosyncratic collection of tourist snapshots on a few places someone recently visited: lots of pix of a dog in the street, etc.; by no means representative of the country as a whole. I've added the Alberobello page of that site to our own Alberobello page, though: at a smaller-scale level, some of these sites are useful. With the addition of the two marginal sites now more or less accepted on this page (UltimateItaly and ItalianVisits), we can expect the floodgates to open for this kind of thing. There are literally many hundreds, probably thousands, of tourist sites of this type, none of which are worth encumbering the pages of an encyclopedia with; I'll continue to delete them, else we'll be swimming in this stuff. Bill 14:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


 * We are willing to surrender on the ItalianVisits.com link for the greater good because we do not want to see the floodgates to which you allude open with the inevitable undermining of Wikipedia's purposes. However, I would only want to do this if UltimateItaly also agrees because while they are a so-called "non-commercial" site, they are not as complete as ItalianVisits.com which is, as I said, marginally commercial (to pay some bills).  A compromise might be to use the link to the Travel Guide to Italy pages, and then let those of us with travel sites - including UltimateItaly - add our links there.


 * By "Travel Guide to Italy", I presume you mean Wikitravel? Please understand that this site is under independent management and their policy also does not allow "other travel guides".  And yes, to me the obvious 'compromise' seems to be to delete both UltimateItaly and ItalianVisits. Jpatokal 17:43, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


 * As the apparent curmudgeon who started all this, I should make it quite clear that, from my own standpoint, the only "marginal" point about UltimateItaly and ItalianVisits is that Italy is a big place, and therefore requires a large, representative site. IV is starting to get a certain critical mass, and UI constructs a fairly valid representative site in part by stating explicitly it's going after only the most famous stuff. . . . At any rate, both are OK by me, if not really topnotch (yet); and I don't think we shoot shoot our foot to cut off our nose: after all, the idea of the links is to send people off to some few good sites. I'm just watching like a hawk the addition of "My vacation to see the Pope" and "Mariella and my Dog at the beach in Capri" sites. . . . A site though that has, to take some of the above as examples, 90 photos of Rimini or a well-constructed section on Alberobello, well, they make very good additions to Wiki's pages on Rimini or Alberobello. Bill 19:06, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Official Languges of Italy
Dose anyone know all the minority languages of Italy and were they have minority status? I’m trying to find out for the list of official languages by state page. – Zntrip 03:28, 4 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Italy's Law 482/1999 grants official status at a local level to the following languages: Albanian, Catalan, German, Greek, Slovenian, Croatian, French, Franco-Provençal, Ladin, Occitanic, Sardinian.

Links, continued
I removed TerraGalleria. The photos are quite nice, and there are a fair number of them, but they don't cover the country at all well: of the 20 regions, only 7 (Piemonte, Liguria, Veneto, Tuscany, Umbria, Lazio, Campania) and even there for example Umbria is merely some shots of Orvieto, and Piemonte of Mont Blanc. Not representative, then; on the other hand, at one level lower, those links are useful, and I'll add some of the subpages to Cinque Terre, etc. Bill 14:15, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

"See also" list, removed
Today's addition was the drop of water needed to make this camel's back overflow: I removed all of them. Some of them, maybe even most of them, are handled by the Category system: Category:Italy includes Communications in Italy, Italian language, etc. The Category system in fact handles some items far better: Italian food consists of far more than 4 items, for example. Other items are arcane and quite pointless here, since someone consulting a general article on Italy is exceedingly unlikely to want Veronese Riddle, for example.

My main objection, however, is the usual one (see my recent edits in this sense to Rome and United States Military Academy): little by little, one person adds a link or two to their particular da-da, another adds another, and before you know it, you have a long silly-looking list that adds no information to the article, is not comprehensive, merely reflecting the quirks of whoever happened to edit, and is disproportionately long. OUT. Bill 17:55, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Italy - Wilktravel article
I made a couple of minor edits in the Italy - Wilktravel article in regards to meals. I changed "primi" and "secondi" to "primo" and "secondo". In Italian, primo/prima and secondo/seconda refers to first and second respectively and as far as I know there is no "primi" or "secondi" (Italian speakers can set me straight if I'm wrong). As an aside as a member of the Canadian military I was stationed in Naples, Italy from '99 - '03 and got to travel throughout most of Italy, plus other parts of Europe and North Africa. When I get a chance I plan on adding more info to the Italy -Wilkpedia article based on my personal experiences and some tourist stuff I brought back from Italy. L.J.Brooks 22:19, 2005 Oct 20 (UTC)

Either works. If you look at a menu you're likely to see primi and secondi because it is plural, and more than one of each dish is offered; if you're talking about one meal you would most likely be speaking of one primo and one secondo. So singular and plural have different uses even though on a page like this either would probably work. ABart26 07:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

External links: removed Venezia.Net
The site is excellent &mdash; but doesn't cover all of Italy. It belongs under Venice; and in fact that's where you'll find it. Bill 16:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Italian Demographics
I have demographics regarding Italy from it's official statistics centre, and i will provide a link. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.221.81.96 (talk • contribs).


 * Presumably ISTAT? Bill 18:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Reason for reversions
Italy is more fundamentally described as a "country" than a "democratic republic" &mdash; which brings to mind Third World dictatorships, not the intent of the writer; there is no particular reason to retitle that section "Recent history", especially if the first item in it is a link to History of Italy; and making Italy (or even the various Italian city-states) a leader in exploration is pushing it: although there was participation by some Italian explorers and governments, most early exploration was Spanish and Portuguese, and if Columbus is in the mind of the editor, his origins are uncertain, and he may well be Catalan. Bill 18:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Just a note about the explorers. Even if Columbus were not an Italian (but it should be proved), there are also some others who did some short explorations:
 * Giovanni da Pian del Carpine
 * Marco Polo
 * Giovanni da Verrazano
 * Amerigo Vespucci
 * Sebastian Cabot
 * Pierre Savorgnan de Brazza
 * and a couple more.--Panairjdde 19:07, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh no argument about some fine Italian explorers, but it still seems a bit excessive to make Italy as a country an exploring power; even allowing for the fact that there was no country, the large Italian states were hardly interested in exploration, and most of these explorers, recognizing that, hired themselves out to the Spaniards, the French, etc. With my fondness for Italy, apolitical bent, and generally mousy personality, I certainly don't mean to stir up anything, of course! Some better phrasing then, if felt suitable, might recognize the contributions of individual Italians to world exploration. Bill 16:01, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Demographics 2
Sure bill, Italy is described as a country. The article in the beginning to introduce Italy is very flimsy. It should be larger. If you go to Portugal and Spain's intro page, it is much larger than that of Italy's.

I have reliable sources and statistics from italy so why is it being changed if they are real facts and I have the links to prove it? About the explorers, what did I say wrong about them, after all they were not even suggested before. There was nothing wrong with my change. After all Portugal and Spain's recent history is used for their intro, why not Italy? - Adrian


 * A pile of things here, some of them my fault.
 * (a) I certainly agree that the Italy article is flimsy
 * (b) No, there's nothing exactly wrong with "Recent History", in the sense that what little is said in this very summary intro is mostly recent. On the other hand, in an intro, you basically just want some very quick overview of the current situation of [Article Topic] ; and in Italy's case, as Italians will be the first to tell you, the whole notion of "Italy" is problematic, meaning two very different things, one of which is very recent: Italy as a general geographical term with cultural and linguistic aspects, the other the nation-state of Italy, which had never existed until the 19c (including in Roman times, even during the brief period around the time of the Punic Wars when the Roman state was something like conterminous with geographical Italy). So "history of Italy", especially when being summarily covered, is exactly what the 2 little paragraphs here have: a general intro to the geographical-cultural unity of the peninsula, followed by a synopsis of the 19c Unification.
 * (c) about your sources and stats being changed, I think I owe you an apology, and I should prolly not have reverted that part. Frankly, this kind of thing I personally don't care about, and shouldn't have paid any attention to it. (But there is a sizable element out there that is very political, and these demographic questions will be a fertile field for article instability and revert wars, because people with political hatchets will pick and choose their statistics. I'm in favor of spinning off the whole Demographics part into its own article, else we'll bog down endlessly.) Bill 15:34, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps I missed it, but can anyone confirm precisely when Italy switched from Kingdom to Republic status? The article seems to jump from Rome's inclusion in the Kingdom in 1870 to 1948 when which it appears to be a republic. Pardon my ignorance. Celtmist 18-11-05
 * Italy became a Republic after World War II and the fall of Fascism. A referendum was held on June 2, 1946 to choose between Monarchy and Republic. It was also the first time women were allowed to vote. The people chose Republic, and in the next 1½ years a new Constitution was prepared. On January 1, 1948 Italy finally became a Republic. See also Birth of the Italian Republic. Mushroom 13:38, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you Mushroom. Believe it or not, I only just stumbled accross Birth of the Italian Republic moments before returning to see if anyone had answered me. Amazing how much we can discover if only we know the right titles. Thanks in any case for responding. Celtmist 19-11-05

Datasources for immigrants in Italy?
Can someone tell me where the very large number of Romanians [445.000] is taken from? I have ISTAT data for 2004 which show a total of 2,6m legal immigrants [after the 2002 legalisation of 702.000], but only 245.000 Romanians, along with 240.000 Albanians and 230.000 Moroccans. I am aware of estimates of one to one and a half million Romanians in Italy, but these are not reliable. By the way, the page Demographics of Italy has old data, which doesnt even mention Romanians and says that Moroccans are the main immigrant group.

Correction: I just checked ISTAT and there are data for end 2004, with Albanians as the leading natioality at 317.000 and Romanians third at 249.000. but still not 445.000 Romanians!

Mar. 2006 the italian government announced the immigration quote for 2006 (units 150.000), immigration offices are currently flooded by at least 1.2 million requests mostly by illegal residents. The real figure f illegal residents is probably much higher than what previosly supposed.

Martin Baldwin-Edwards Mediterranean Migration Observatory, Athens--87.202.18.67 07:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Here you can find your answear: http://www.evz.ro/eveniment/?news_id=201813

it is a romanian newspaper but it is based on a report made in Italy. And actually are more than [445.000] are about 1.061.000. "Peste un milion de romani traiesc in Italia, constituind cea mai mare comunitate straina - 1.061.400, adica 37,2% din totalul imigrantilor, releva „Dosarul statistic al imigratiei 2005”, publicat la sfarsitul saptamanii trecute." and also the prime minister S. Berlusconi visiting in 12.10.2005 Romania said that there are at least 600.000 (http://www.guv.ro/presa/afis-doc.php?idpresa=42228&idrubricapresa=&idrubricaprimm=&idtema=&tip=&pag=1&dr=). So I think we should correct the numbers.
 * Romanians have arrived at being 37.2% of the 2,8 million immigrants in Italy
 * Over a million Romanians are working in Italy, constituting the largest foreign community - 1,061,400, which is to say 37,2% of the total of immigrants, according to the "2005 Statistical Dossier of Immigration", published at the end of last week. [Lacking citation, it is not clear what week.]


 * For the first time, this annual bulletin includes a subchapter that addresses Romanians and Poles, entitled: "Migratory flows coming from the Eastern lands: The cases of the Romanians and Poles”.


 * Immigrants travel to Rome


 * According to the report, the number of illegal immigrants in Italia is about 2.8 million people (approximately 5% of the total population), placing Italy in third place in Europe for number of immigrants, after Great Britain - 7.3 million, and France - 3.5 million people. After Romanians (who came to be in first place as early as 2002), Moroccans and Albanians are the most numerous, 20.1% and 16,1%, respectively of the total of foreign citizens working in Italy.


 * The most immigrants are concentrated in the region of Rome (340,000 people), Milan (300,000), Turin and Brescia (some 100,000), and also Padua, Treviso, Verona, Bergamo and others (between 50,000 and 70,000 each).


 * Romanians, 40% of the foreigners who arrived in 2004


 * Since last year, the number of immigrants has increased a little more than 100,000, but the statistics show that 40% of these are all[?] Romanians. The report sustains that the phenomenon of immigration is in full development [that's literal: presumably this means "undergoing rapid development"] and that it will double in the next ten years, arriving, in 2015, at 5.5 million people.


 * The total number of immigrants given as a result in the abovementioned report is contested by the Italian Institute of Statistics, which puts forth a number of just 2.4 million immigrants. Over two million people of the total immigrants are employed, reprezentin 9% of the total Italian workforce: over 50% work in services [I assume that is what in servicii means in this context; it can also mean "in office jobs", but that seems unlikely], 44.8% in industry, and 5.9% in agriculture, the great majority having fixed-duration contracts. More than 500,000 immigrants work in Italian houses, as cleaning woman, nannies or caring for the elderly, etc.

Bonaparte  talk  &  contribs

Thanks
Many thanks for this. I think, though, that they do not mean that there are 2,8 m illegal immigrants, but rather 2,8m immigrants! As there are 2,4m with valid residence permits as of Dec 2004, another 400.000 is very plausible. But another 2,8 million?? It is not possible.

I will get back to you on reasonable estimated figures, which I am now working on.

--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 20:57, 23 November 2005 (UTC) No, totally are 2.8 millions. http://www.dossierimmigrazione.it/book/book2005.htm#05-1 --Bonaparte 15:23, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Unofficial
I dont understand how someone is willing to use a Romanian newspaper to tell them how many Romanians live in Italy. Of course any nation can propagate the number of their nationals living abroad. If ISTAT tells me there are a little more than 248,000 Romanians living in Italy, then i believe that. We cannot make assumptions as to how many people of a certain race live in Italy if they are illegal as well. There are 2.4 million immigrants living in italy, not 2.8 million. Someone still has to make the Italian introduction much better than the way it is now. 24.226.10.98 22:07, 30 November 2005 (UTC)Adrian24.226.10.98 22:07, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The Prime Minister S. Berlusconi visiting in 12.10.2005 Romania said that there are at least 600.000 (http://www.guv.ro/presa/afis-doc.php?idpresa=42228&idrubricapresa=&idrubricaprimm=&idtema=&tip=&pag=1&dr=). So I think is correct. -- Bonaparte  talk  &amp;  contribs  09:19, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, the number of Romanians in Italy and Spain is a big problem [see also a similar discussion in Spain:Talk]. This is because there are frequent short-term cirular migrations, of Romanians working illegally: they appear in semi-official datasets, but nobody can know how many are in Italy at any one time. My estimate, based on Romanian surveys of households with members abroad, is that at any one time there are 600.000-1m temporary emigrants: however, the total of people who have recently participated in short term migration is much higher -- more like 1,5-2m. Most go to Spain and Italy. If the paper is published online, I will add the data to the wiki pages and make a link [it is in press with Univ of West Timisaoara].

As far as the total figure of immigrants in Italy is concerned, the 2,4m is from CENSIS [state] and the 2,8m is from CARITAS [Catholic Church]. Both are reliable, and neither is capable of estimating illegal immigrant numbers.

--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 01:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

changes to Culture section
I just fixed several typos and wording errors in the Culture section, as well as deleting some grafitti from the bottom of the section. Can someone please work on the first paragraph of Culture, as importantances isn't a word and I don't think holidays are whatever an importantance is. Also the edit links for several sections including Culture are in the wrong position, this is a formatting error which needs to be fixed.

Slark 02:10, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Great minds must run in tandem.... Without looking here first, I deleted the whole section, which was appallingly bad, and had been irritating me for months. But now reading this, I find someone must have reverted you, since what I deleted included "importantances" for example. Anyway, it's gone. Among the inanities and POV: every country has good things to eat, and a worse short list of the good things in Italian cooking couldn't have been devised, reading like a summary of a menu from the Olive Garden. The notion that Italians are known for "taste" is blatant POV, and there is taste to be found everywhere: even if a certain elitist notion is meant, Japan, China, England and France come to mind as well. Why Tommaso Geraci is singled out to represent all of modern art in Italy, is a conundrum, except not worth pondering. "List of Italians" is a stupidity, best not linked to from any article. The link between football and culture is curious, and depends on a sort of pun on "culture": usually what is meant by "culture", which is what seems to have been meant in this section as well, is art and literature; soccer is part of "the culture" in the same way as living with one's parents into one's 30s, or burying people in the cemeteries typical of Italy, etc. At any rate, lists, blatant or camouflaged, do not an article make. (As to why, if I think this former section was so bad, I didn't rewrite it myself &#8212; I can't, I'm not competent to do so. It's much easier to see what's wrong than to fix it. But it's better to have nothing than something so bad. Presumably the article Culture of Italy, having more room to spread out in, is better; I didn't look. Bill 13:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Meaning of sentence?
I can't figure out what this sentence means. It might need to be edited (albeit by someone more knowledgeable on the subject than myself):


 * After Magna Graecia, the Etruscan civilization and especially the Roman Republic and Empire that dominated this part of the world for many centuries, Italy was central to European philosophy, science and art during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance.

Rereading it just now, I think I get what it means. It's just a badly constructed sentence. Maybe someone could reconstruct it.

-- Andrew Parodi 00:11, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

It's badly written and it's also a POV. The French or the English or the Germans and almost any other european nation could be claiming the same thing. But it's silly to do so. Miskin 02:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Some notes to add about Italy

 * The good feeling with U.S.A and U.K. about international choises and events
 * The Peace Mission in Aftanistan/Iraq after american invasion with medical Supports(Crocerossa Italiana), Money helps, and also military sections for Iraq security.
 * The european italian position about union economy and european costitution. Exept for the italian federalist group of Northern League and his leader Umberto Bossi.

And also a little description about the 2 mainly political alliance in italy:

party members: Forza Italia, National alliance, Democrats' Centre Union, Northern League, and others minority. ideology: right
 * Coalition name: house of freedoms(Casa delle libertà, CdL) President: Silvio Berlusconi

Party members: Olive Tree, Left-Wing Democrats, Communist Refoundation Party, Daisy, and others minority. ideology: left
 * Coalition name: The Union (L'Unione) president: Romano Prodi

the next elections will be to April 2006.

--Count Neclord 10:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

More....color...?
This page is good...not great...but good...it's just...boring...needs more color, you know? --68.221.103.157 20:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

this page is awesome gives a lot of information and --70.50.39.254 20:15, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

No, this page is not awesome. It lacks in quality and quantity, and it simply doesn't cut it in comparison to many other articles on countries. I just wish I had the knowledge and patience to improve it myself, but I'm not part of this project. The least it could use is a section on tourism with photographs. --24.20.158.96 09:13, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Should we nominate this article for AID? Sicilianmandolin 22:16, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

AID Nomination
I have nominated this article for AID. Let's get some more votes going! Sicilianmandolin 11:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

provinces
It says five are marked with an asterisk, but i see only four Rmpfu89 00:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Snip
Sorry folks, I am still laughing. This is disinformation. I cut this.

"The arrival of immigrants has generated a plethora of new languages, including Armenian, Arabic, Hindi, Punjabi, Tamil,Turkish, Kurdish, Urdu, Mandarin Chinese, and others. Even today, variations in local accents allow people from one town to distinguish people from a neighbouring town which may be only a few miles away. There is a growing population of Jews and Muslims in Italy, many of whom speak Hebrew and Arabic, respectively."

"A plethora of new languages": Where did you read this rubbish? It is a nonsense, a fake info. In Italy there are less immigrants than in other european nations and no area is like Chinatown or Little Africa. So, just for curiosity, can you tell me where the Armenian language (or any other language)is spoken?

You should check the images of the last battle between 100 carabinieri and a few hundreds nigerian drug dealers on the lungo dora in turin (one nigerian dead and another one missing), hard to find a white face, or make a tour to the surroundings of porta palazzo in turin to refresh your idea of what blacks ghetto is .... (don't forget the gun)

Geography
I think a discussion of Italy's volcanoes, and earthquakes should be included in this section. An expert's help in this section would be appreciated. TwasBrillig 01:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Intro and Article
I agree with Sicilian Mandolin. The Italy article is very weak. If we look at Spain's information pages, it is huge and very well discriptive. The Italian page could have more pictures, and info, considering that Italy has more history, more people, more influence among the European Union.

I'd love a list of Italian cities, towns, etc. I don't know much about the country but need to research the spelling of a town in Italy I can't find ANYWHERE here. Dora-Faye Hendricks

Leader revisions
As I understand it Berlusconi remains caretaker Prime Minister until the President gives a mandate to the new administration. See http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1765846,00.html Forgot to sign this yesterday David Underdown


 * You are absolutely right. Until a new Government obtain the vote from the Parliament, the old one is in charge. User:Gbnogkfs 8 May 2006, 8:30 (UT)


 * as well, I think C.A. Ciampi is still the President of Italy until G. Napolitano takes oaths of office (according to media on Monday, May 15) 151.41.205.118 14:42, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes: officially, Ciampi's mandate ends on the 18th May. As Napolitano will take oath probably on 15th May, Ciampi would surely resign from office the same day, as is the tradition in such a case (and also because of the hurry for a Government to be formed, which is appointed by the President). Gbnogkfs 10 May 2006, 23:50 (UTC)

Religion
There's a whole Category:Religion in Italy, but only a paragraph summary here. It could probably be expanded into a Religion in Italy article. -- Beland 20:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Culture
Something is needed here. We can't just link to the main article on this. Even a summary of the main article would be nice.


 * Well, I've devised something. I'm not entirely confident with the quality, and I would encourage anyone to improve it as they see fit, but it's a good start, nonetheless. I don't know much about modern Italy, and its trends in media, fashion and sports, but I can definitely see some room for information regarding those subjects. Sicilianmandolin 18:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Religion 2
CIA World Fact Book states that 90 per cent of Italy's population is Roman Catholic. In our article we are assuming thaat 87 per cent of Italians are Catholic. We should go with CIA World Fact Book, at least it is a reliable source, not assuming. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.150.149.183 (talk • contribs).


 * It is very hard nowadays to get reliable stats on religion simply because things are no longer black and white, and there are varying levels of religiosity. That is why we get conflict between stats that say, for example, that 40% of French people don't believe in God, and then other sources say that 85% of the population is Roman Catholic. Italy is one of the EU's most religious countries, so that level of discrepancy will probably not take place. However, CIA World Factbook statistics are generally somewhat unreliable in this regard and are not based on any clear or consistent definition of religiosity. [[Image:Flag of Europe.svg|20px]][[Image:Flag of Romania.svg|20px]] Ronline ✉ 11:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Does this count those who are not members of the church? Talous 15:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Belpaese
It should be noted that "Bel Paese" is a poetical definition, not used in everyday language, and that it is often used ironically (for example by Francesco Guccini in his song "Cyrano", when he says "in questo benedetto, assurdo Belpaese"="in this blessed, absurd Beautiful country"). Clap 14:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Wrong. It is widely used in a positive meaning, even in by Guccini in his song.--Panairjdde 15:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

If you google "Bel paese" -galbani, looking for pages in Italian, in the first 20 results you find either touristic sites or pages about industrial decline, lack of control on weapons, pollution and torture. And Guccini wasn't exactly speaking about the beauties of Italy in his song. Saying that it's not used in everyday language, I mean that you don't usually say "il Belpaese confina con la Svizzera" or "Nel Belpaese amiamo la pasta", in the article it sounds like "Italia" and "Bel Paese" are synonyms, but "Bel Paese" is used only in specific contexts. Clap 05:40, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I do not agree. The term is not ironic, even if sometimes is used in that sense. However, we could juste remove it from the article.--Panairjdde 09:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The term is not ironic, but it's often used in that sense. It's not very important, but the sentence with the words "Bel Paese" sounds like an advertising for tourism in Italy, I simply wanted to note that. Clap 09:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I do not agree on "often". Re-reading the text, I find it a good introduction to the matter of "officially" recognized monuments.--Panairjdde 11:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm Italian. Clap is right. We use Bel Paese when we ironically speak about the stereotypes strangers have about italy, like 'mafia-pizza-mandolino'. Stefano.
 * I am Italian too. Belpaese is used to refer to Italy in every case, not to stereotypes.--151.47.113.141 15:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought about it. You're right, but we usually say it when we speak to something related to strangers, like tourism. Don't we? --Stefano 16:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Improving this article
This article is undoubtedly one of the poorest country articles on Wikipedia in consideration of Italy's historical promimence as one of the most important countries in the world and its current position as a global leader. I commend the individual largely responsible for the languages section, who took the initiative to expand that section and set an example of the potential for creating something meaningful out of this article. I have since followed in that example and improved the culture section from a glaringly empty stub into something worthwhile and relevant. If at least one person devotes themselves to the creation and improvement of a single section or improvement of an existing section, as I did, we could really set the pace for improving this article enormously. Use the internet, use Wikipedia, use other encyclopedias; anything. As the 3rd Google search result produced for "Italy", there's really no excuse for the downright egregious condition of this article, either. It can be done; it needs to be done. Thank you. Sicilianmandolin 06:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

It's actually good. Just for have more letters doens't make it better, I like this way with the little resume in each section an the topic main article link in top of it. --Bauta 03:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's decent, but it is not good. It has since improved since I wrote this, thankfully. And no, more words certainly do not make it a better article, but that's not the only thing I am calling for. Sicilianmandolin 17:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Area conversion
The area of Italy is given in the infobox like this:
 * 301,230 km² (71st)
 * 116,346.5 sq mi

The two numbers aren't equal: 301 230 km^2 is equal to 116 306 mi^2, or 116 346.5 mi^2 is equal to 301 336 km^2. The area in km^2 was changed by this edit but the one given in mi^2 wasn't changed. My world atlas [Cartographia Világatlasz, 1995] claims that the area is in between these: 301 302 km^2. I won't edit the article now but let someone else decide on this. – b_jonas 22:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I was in the process of inserting your figure—on the basis that it gave a source—when I realized that I’d have to change the population density, too. And then discovered that List of countries by population density gives the area as 301,230 km^2, citing as its source List of countries by area. Except that that article has 301,308 km^2. Is there a case for a Template:Area of Italy (post-1947)?

A related question, though, is whether a precision of 1 km^2 is actually meaningful. And, indeed, how much the area changes year on year—sediment pumped out by the Po, coastal erosion, changes in sea levels, even continental drift (somewhere we say that Italy is part of Africa in that context) must all have some impact. —Ian Spackman 08:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

World Cup Champions
Today, Italy won the World Cup. They won it against France in overtime.-- Chili14 ( Talk 20:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

France was been lucky since beggining.It had difficulties in passing the groups fase and arrived at the Final-Very, very lucky, but nothing last forever. France finally met her match! VIVA L'ITALIA
 * CONGRATULATIONS ITALY

ACamposPinho 23:29, 9 July 2006

Croatia sharing a border?
If Croatia shares a 'sea border' with Italy, then isnt it also valid to include the countries of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania and Greece as countries Italy shares a border with? Or rather remove the sentence which states this? 68.145.246.117 23:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No, because national waters are a limited number of nautical miles wide, and Italy and Albania, for example, are too far apart in order for their national waters to "border" each other. Otherwise Italy and Albania could get an agreement and "close" the Adriatic sea, forbidding all ships to cross their national waters.--Panairjdde 23:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

notability of Armando Gabba, baritone singer?
A user has been edit-warring for deleting this entry:


 * Armando Gabba, a baritone opera singer who performed in 1984 with Renato Bruson, Edita Gruberová, Brigitte Fassbaender, and Neil Shicoff in Rigoletto, and is still active

from the disambiguation page Gabba, arguing that he's not notable enough to ever have a Wikipedia article, and thus to be listed as a redlink on a dab page. You can provide opinion and information (positive or negative) about it at the discussion page Talk:Gabba so as to help sort it out.

Thanks,

-- 62.147.112.36 14:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Region map 2
Hi, I just noticed something about the region map on the main article.. it doesn't have a 15th region and it has two 19s. Unless one of those 19s is really a 15, is there anything anyone can do to makke it make sense, at least to me? Thanks, Ackander 02:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, some of the regions do not correspond to the numbers given in the article. Sicily is 19 on the map, but 18 in the article, and Tuscany is 16 on the map, and 15 in the article. 70.35.160.201 19:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I've fixed the '15' issue - now we just have to make the article numbers correspond correctly. &brvbar; Reisio 22:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If the numbers in Regions of Italy are correct, then the numbers here should be now, too. &brvbar; Reisio 23:12, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Basket
Yes, basketball is a popular sport in Italy and deserves its own Italy-oriented article. But has it overtaken football (or cycling)? To me the (properly) brief section on sport, in an article on Italy as a whole, seems to be being overtaken by a fanatic. Ian Spackman 11:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Happy? :) Sicilianmandolin 11:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have always been happy to see your endeavours to improve this article! My comment was aimed at those who torment you. —Ian Spackman 12:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Hahaha! That gave me a good laugh. Thank you, Ian. Often times I forget to include pieces of pertinent information, and such efforts to remind me of them are appreciated, even if whomever is doing so couldn't write an intelligible sentence in English to save their life. :P Sicilianmandolin 19:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Migration
Bold textWho migrated to Italy and When?
 * Whether or not that’s your homework, it’s an excellent question! In your answer (which I hope that you will turn into a Wikipedia article) you could start (in no particular order of importance or chronology: I’m sure you can get that from our apposite articles) by boning up on Ligures, Greeks, Gauls, Lombards, Goths, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Franks, Saracens, Normans (check: are they Vikings?), Spaniards and Austrians. You should also consider why football coaches are often termed ‘Mister’. (Hint, it’s not American football!). You could then think about how people got into Italy: does it have a sea coast? should we use boats or elephants? in which direction is it easier to cross the Alps and why? Then, to take a specific case, imagine you make it across the Julian Alps with the skull of your enemy as drinking cup and a decent army. How long will it take you to reach Pavia? Who will try to stop you? Is the Pianura Padana an impassable zone of swamp and thicket, or has someone (who? why? when?) drained enough of it so that your progress is a sinch? Why did you want to go to Pavia anyway? How long did its siege last? How does Byzantium relate to this? Why would you then want/need to cross the Appenines? What spot would you choose? Hang on, though, we’re talking about migration in general, not just invasion. How did the Celts and the Ligurians get on together? Did one of them drive the other into the mountains, or did they form a joint culture? Or both? Come to that, does Napoleon count as an immigrant, and if so what was his legacy?
 * I hope that once you have extended those questions to the many decades, centuries and millenia I missed out, and found good answers to them all (often from Wikipedia), you will have a the beginnings of a basis for composing a paragraph for your excellent essay! Cheers —Ian Spackman 21:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest to improve this part in this way: before turnig to a immigration land, Italy used to be an emigration Land. Million of Italians left the country to USA, Argentina, Brazil, Germaany, France, Australia, Canada and Belgium. So the two phenomenon must be chronologically ordered. First the emigration abroad and then the immigration form Morocco, albania, Rumania, Ukrania....

vandalism
removing addition at the very bottom stating, "italy is located in china and they invented orange chicken not pasta" Experia 04:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Also the South!
<> Not only the northen! I'm of South Italy and very many youngs speaks fluently English. I propose to correct the phrase in: <>. --Gce 09:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Mona Lisa Smile
Hi, one month ago I deleted the MONA LISA picture that now is again in Italy's page. But why? The Mona Lisa picture is in Paris, not in Italy...so can't you delete this picture and replace it with an Italy related picture? What can I suggest...an image of the Cappella Sistina? Thanks!

87.10.53.63 18:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The Mona Lisa was painted in Italy.--Panarjedde 01:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hah, man, hilarious. Maybe someday they will think the Parthenon was actually built in London. LOL.  It is amazing to me this individual doesn't realize the Mona Lisa was not only painted in Italy, but also by the Italian Leonardo da Vinci. -sigh- Taalo 03:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't try to be clever man...I know that Mona Lisa was painted by Leonrado Da Vinci...after all, you just need to have read the Da Vinci Code...but I've said a different thing. I've said that it's very useless to put an image of a picture hosted in Paris in Italy's page. On top of that, the Mona Lisa is only a "tourist" image of Italy, like godola, pizza and mandolino. So you can more cleverly put an image that shows more important landmarks of Italy instead of a hackneyed stereotype. 87.3.56.92 17:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, it would be quite the effort for me to try and be clever after someone has said: 1) "delete this picture and replace it with an Italy related picture" and then 2) "I know that Mona Lisa was painted by Leonrado (sic) Da Vinci...after all, you just need to have read the Da Vinci Code". The Mona Lisa is one of the most famous paintings ever; there are plenty of photographs that can be used for scenery.  Anyway, this argument itself is useless -- if not hilarious! ps. there are much better books to learn your history from by the way... *rolls eyes* Taalo 18:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The Mona Lisa is arguably the most famous example of Italian painting, and from someone who is one of Italy's most famous artists (among other things). --Nehwyn 08:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Regions and Provinces
I found an excellent website, that I hope we can add as an reference. http://www.countriesandcities.com/ This website lists both the regions and provinces in what is most normally used in English: http://www.countriesandcities.com/countries/it/regions.htm, http://www.countriesandcities.com/countries/it/provinces.htm. Taalo 03:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I do not see what kind of improvement this links bring to the article.--Panarjedde 21:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Rugby popular in Italy?
I'm Italian. I do not agree on the popularity of rugby in Italy:

"Rugby union is very popular in Italy"

I would say that 99% of the Italians do not know the rules of rugby.

Andrea Censi 21:06, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You're probably right... but many Italians don't know the rules of football too, yet they are passionate supporters of a team. To assess popularity of a sport, I'd say that press coverage and TV broadcasting are more reliable criteria... and both in this case rule out rugby as a widely popular sport (even though I personally like it). I'd say volley is more popular. --Nehwyn 07:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * but many Italians don't know the rules of football I think that virtually all the male population above 6 ys old knows the rules perfectly, but I don't have official numbers for this. I think it's true that Volley is more popular than Rugby, as it is frequently played in middle and high schools. Thinking of it, I guess it's because girls and boys can play together, being volley a sport without physical contact. --Andrea Censi 20:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Italy as "la Penisola"
In Italian you can refer to Italy simply as "la Penisola" (the Peninsula), and nobody can get you wrong. E.g. you can say "football is the most popular sport in the Peninsula" and nobody will think about Delmarva peninsula. This is a common antonomasia, know by every Italian and carried by all dictionaries. E.g. Garzanti: Penisola, s. f. territorio che si protende in un mare o in un lago e la cui base di attacco al continente è relativamente stretta rispetto alla sua lunghezza: la penisola iberica | la Penisola, per antonomasia, l'Italia. DIM. penisoletta. I added this information, according also to the Italian Wikipedia ("l'Italia viene tradizionalmente chiamata la Penisola", that is "Italy is traditionally called la Penisola''"). Strangely some users with obvious poor knowledgment of Italian culture are deleting it over and over again, stating ""penisola" is everything with a peninsular property, "stivale" is only the Italian peninsula". Everyone with a little of knowledgment of Italy will agree this make absolutely no sense. As in French you can refer to France as "l'Hexagone", as in English you can call the Usa "the States", so in Italian Italy itself is just "la Penisola". I'd like to know your opinion about this and what can I do. --Fertuno 21:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with you! 82.58.22.26 11:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I completely disagree with you. The fact that the most common Penisola in Italian culture is the Italian Penisola, does not mean that the common name for Italy is "Penisola".--Panarjedde 16:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That's just false: one of the common name of Italian peninsula in fact is, along with lo Stivale (the Boot) or il Belpaese (the Beautiful country), la Penisola. This is a fact. Every Italian and everyone with a knowledgment of Italian culture knows it perfectly. It is used in common and formal language, on the television and stereotypically during the weather forecast. It doesn't just mean the Italian peninsula is the most common in the Italian culture: it is an effective substitution of a common noun for a proper name, or what is called an antonomasia (as the first two are). Calling France l'Hexagone is another antonomasia, or maybe the fact that the most common hexagon in French culture is the hexagon made up by the shape of France, does not mean that the common name for France is l'Hexagone?. If you are still doubtful, compare with these articles: Fastweb alla conquista della Penisola (Fastweb conquering the Peninsula), Venerdì soleggiato su gran parte della Penisola (Sunny Friday on most of the Peninsula), or Oggi 45 incendi in tutta la Penisola (Today 45 fires all over the Peninsula). Also check the De Mauro-Paravia's definition of penisola: (solo sing., per anton., spec. con iniz. maiusc., l’Italia, just singular, antonomasia, especially with the capital initial letter: Italy). I'll edit the statement accordingly to this. Please refrain from edit. --Fertuno 18:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Do not edit anything up until consensus is gathered. Otherwise I shall revert. This behaviour of yours has no place on a collaborative effort like Wikipedia, if you do not want to collaborate, this is no place for you.--Panarjedde 18:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think consensus has to be gathered in removing a valid and well-founded information added by others, extensively justified and approved at least by a third person, rather than in adding it. Also, pleas forbear from judging other people's behaviour just because you have a different opinion. Thank you. --Fertuno 18:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Personally I would neither add nor remove the statement: there are more pressing things to be done, preferably by people less ignorant than I am. On the related riding boot issue the archaic PD Catholic Encyclopedia is actually rather good (as indeed it is generally in that article when Vatican politics are not involved—absolutely useless when they are). —Ian Spackman 17:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Christian groups?
Before anyone objects to my change of the word "Christian" to "religious," you should know that some of those groups aren't really Christian. For example, Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, which is what Christianity is about. I'm a Christian myself, so I'd know what it's about. Though I don't know much about the others.

I'm not trying to be prejudiced and I'm sorry if I came across as such. I just think the classification was incorrect.--SSJ4 Aragorn 04:16, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Jews are not Christians off course, while Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are. Checco 07:48, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Demographics: Italian City Provinces, Urban Areas and Metropolitan Areas
I removed the table above because, although useful in principle, it is not only unsourced but implausible. Have a look at a map: not all of the Province of Turin can conceivably described as an urban area. Yet identical figures are given. If anyone can find a good source and correct the figures, that would be good. —Ian Spackman 07:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

You are right. Checco 08:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Emigration countries
Just restoring an unsigned comment made by User:192.197.178.2

"Regarding the emigration of Italians, Canada should be added to the list of top countries receiving Italian immigrants." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.197.178.2 (talk • contribs)

I concur, by the way. --Nehwyn 04:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. I will make the addition (see Italian Canadian) 207.6.233.239 16:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops. Just noticed I can't make changes until registered. Perhaps someone else can add Canada to the list? 207.6.233.239 17:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

History/Language
The article states, "...Italian was spoken by a small part of the population while the rest spoke local dialects..." after the wars of independence. I believe that there was no generally agreed upon "Italian" at the time. Italian, as we know it, is really the Florentine dialect. Dante, centuries earlier, promoted the use of the Florentine dialect for an Italian common language because of its beauty and ease of understanding. I have also read that the decision to use Florentine was made by the military during the 1860s as a way to make sure that all of their conscripts could understand each other.

24.0.104.136 06:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi there. Any sources on these?  --Nehwyn 08:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Dante wrote a book about Italian dialects of his time (De Vulgari Eloquentia), and came to the conclusion that no one was actually better than the others. Anyway, the Italian langauge IS derived from the Florentine dialect, but it's not THE Florentine dialect. It was influenced over the centuries, before and after the unification of the country, by the other dialects and absorbed words from them. By the time of unification, common people (and the king!) still used their own dialect but Italian was already used as koinè among upper classes. - wrote by [mailto:nebox@tiscali.it | Nebo]


 * Italian - as we know it today - comes from the Tuscan dialect, as it was interpred by Alessandro Manzoni, who can be considered as the father of modern Italian language. By 1860, Italian was the language of the middle class and aristocracy in Florence and Rome only (about 3 % of total population). The great majority of the inhabitants of the peninsula spoke local dialects or other languages. Among others, it must be noticed that the official language of the Sardinian Parliament up to 1860 was French, not Italian. French was also the mother tongue of Cavour, one of the makers of italian unification. You can find these and other information about this subject in the monumental work "Storia linguistica dell'Italia unita", 1963, written by the italian linguist Tullio De Mauro. This is the reference work on the subject.


 * Ciao, alex2006 06:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Non-standard and potentially POV map should be reverted
The map for this country has recently been changed to a format which is not standard for Wikipedia. Each and every other country identifies that country alone on a contintental or global map; none of them highlight other members of relevant regional blocs or other states which which that country has political or constitutional links. The EU is no different in this respect unless and until it becomes a formal state and replaces all other states which are presently members; the progress and constitutional status of the EU can be properly debated and identified on the page for that organisation; to include other members of the EU on the infobox map for this country is both non-standard and potentially POV.

Please support me in maitaining Italy's proper map (in Wikipedia standard) until we here have debated and agreed this issue? Who is for changing the map and who against? The onus is on those who would seek to digress from Wiki standard to show why a non-standard and potentially POV map should be used. Italy deserves no less! JamesAVD 15:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Please don't top-post, the newest post on talk pages goes at the bottom. The proper place for this discussion is Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries instead of fragmented discussion on all country talk pages. Kusma (討論) 15:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

This user has decided to remove references to the EU from the page of every member state. See his talk page for more details. yandman 15:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The users above are misrepresnting my actions. Certain non-standard items have been included in the infoboxes of the pages of some European states. I have removed the undiscussed and unsupported changes and started a discussion here on the best way forward. I have in no way 'removed references to the EU'! The EU is an important part of the activities of the governmenance of many European states, to the benefit of all. That does not mean that an encyclopedia should go around presenting potentially POV information of the constitutional status of the EU in the infoboxes of states which are supposed to be standardised across Wikipedia. I'm interested in what users here feel? Please feel free to comment at any of the various pages Yandman might suggest. JamesAVD 15:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * There's nothing wrong with the new map. If anything - it has a better view and is much cleaner. There is no harm in highlighting EU countries (what do you have against the EU?). I don't think it is POV at all. Rarelibra 16:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The new map is defintely better looking. We should have maps like this which show each country within it's geographical context. I have nothing whatsoever against the EU but feel very strongly that Wikipedia presents the world as it is and not as we might like it to be. There is no in showing other EU members but it is a) non-standard, b) potentially incorrect or POV (it expresses an opinion on the consitutional status of the EU, much in debate), and c) ignores all of the other political/consitutional relationships which a country might have. We should surely revert to the Wikipedia standard of states in a global or continental geographical setting without bringing regional blocs into play, no? JamesAVD 16:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * How is the constitutional status being debated? The EU exists, the money is standardized, the free trade and free movement exists as well. Looks to me as if the constitutional status is pretty solid. Any hard feelings may be from countries with strong(er) economies supporting the weak(er) nation members. But such is the life in the United States. Many don't realize that only about 12 to 18 US states pay in more tax money than they receive. Most of the poor(er) US states actually receive more in federal aid than they pay in for taxes. Much similar to the EU. Rarelibra 17:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

PLEASE DISCUSS THIS AT Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries as it involves more than just this country.

Thanks, &mdash;MJCdetroit 20:19, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Help
User Kusma and User Yandman have been attempting to remove my contributions to discussions on this page (see the History of the page). Surely this is not allowed? JamesAVD 15:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I only moved it to the bottom, where it belongs. If you check the page history, you'll see I didn't remove anything. Kusma (討論) 15:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Accepted on this page, though I note you'd deleted elsewhere. Apologies. JamesAVD 15:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

WHY?
Why is Italy the dumping ground of vandalism so much? We'll lock it out again, and once it unlocks it will be open season again for vandals from anon IP. What a shame. Rarelibra 18:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm getting more and more convinced that editing of Wikipedia should be limited to registered users, at least for articles considered for distribution.  --Nehwyn 19:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

No doubt about that. I wish they'd do that already. Sure, sometimes an anonymous user can contribute a bit of information, but that largely fails to outweigh all the vandalism. Sicilianmandolin 02:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree too. alex2006 10:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Sports Sections
I've reduced the paragraphs concerning sports in Italy to an overview more relevant to the cultural aspect of the issue. I've transplanted the previous paragraphs to the Sport in Italy article, while including the suggestions made by the anonymous user whose comments about winter sports are on the top of this page. Feel free to edit my paragraph for grammar, content, etc. I hope no one disagrees with the decision I've made; the previous sports section was simply too massive. Sicilianmandolin 12:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Italian man
it misses Gabriele D'Annunzio in literature and the great explorers like Caboto, Colombo, Amerigo Vespucci that gave the namen to Amrica and borothers Da Verrazzano.

Population density
Is 195 per km2 not 192,8. Fixed.

Lord Palmerston 12:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)Lord Palmerston

Picture of Garibaldi meeting Vittorio Emanuele II near Teano
There has been a bit of a dispute going as to how this image (Image:Incontro_di_Teano_fra_Garibaldi_e_Vittorio_Emanuele_II.jpg) should be captioned. I am always in favour of proper captions for paintings—artist, date, materials, location, etc—so tried to get some details on this. The info on the image page is useless. (Not even enough to convince one that it is not a copy-vio.) I would guess that its web-origin was this page on the site of the Italian Ministry of Defense. The description there is
 * Quadro rappresentante L'incontro di Garibaldi con Vittorio Emanuele II a Taverna di Catena, presso Teano, nel celebre dipinto di De Alberti.

However, I have been unable to track down anything more: not even who this painter ‘De Alberti’ is. If anyone knows, or can find out, any more, that would be helpful. —Ian Spackman 13:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Italy
I am doing a report about Italy and I need some information on it.

Inactive Protect Template
If the protect template were active, how come was able to remove it with his first ever edit? It seems to me that 172.198.110.251 made a good faith and helpful edit, which should not have been rolled back without explanation. We want to encourage new editors, don't we? Viewfinder 14:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)