Talk:Ivalice/Archive 1

Vagrant Story
Should Vagrant Story be mentioned? "VG is the same world as Tactics" was mostly conjecture before thanks to AJ Durai and other connectios, but FFXII seems to strengthen the bond considering the nation of Valendia. 216.185.76.77 17:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Editing Section slightly on Ultimania
Bluerfn, I take it you tend to make up a lot of the article, so I don't want to undo anything. However, I feel it's very necessary to mention the "paradox" present in the Ultimania. I myself don't know what actually goes into XII's Ultimania even though published "by Square" etc, yet even so I feel it necessary to mention the issue. 67.142.130.19 17:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Noted, thank you. 私はBluerfnです 17:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Bluerfn, me again. I don't know who edited my re-edit add-on, But Saint Ajora is never given a gender in FFXII, neither in the bestiary or (to my knowledge) referenced in the Ultimania timeline. I am removing that part of the edit until a citation is provided, as the magic pot bestiary in FFXII does not mention Ajora's gender and (to my knowledge) is the only reference of Ajora in the game. 67.142.130.11 06:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I do not mean to burst your bubble, but the Japanese version of FFXII's Clan Primer Magick Pot entry wrote that St Ajora was a woman. The name St Ajora was written with the kanji for woman. The Ultimania backed this entry up, too. So I'm reverting because we have sources. 私はBluerfnです 08:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, re edit here, I see what you mean now (But come to think of it, if you are the one who translated the Ultimania and neither of us noticed the difference in the Japanese translation of "Saint" till now...really its hard to understand what is going on with the timeline) I have edited the wiki again to make a footnote of it. Not to doubt you, but the north American FFXII does not give the Ajora mentioned a gender, so I would rather note both options versus completely stating the Ajora is female.

To further this, it will create a problem in one of two areas. This would mean that there are THREE Ajoras or that the timeline presented in the bestiary is not given in the perspective of FFXII. Either way, we have a massive problem to further the confusion....67.142.130.23 23:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, i'm fully aware of the confusion this may bring. not to mention the fan-forums i found had already discussed about the scan i posted. still we have the NDS Revenant Wings and the PSP Tactics remake that could either tie the timeline or break it apart. so i think we should not make any further edits, additions or whatnot, beyond what is already written here. perhaps until the two games does come out. 私はBluerfnです 23:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed, I think the article is perfect now giving mentions to all the facts and actual places/locations of each game, the only thing that can be done is sit out and wait for the lion war and Advanced 2 to shed light on the connections (HOPEFULLY not add even more puzzles than answers this time)67.142.130.38 03:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Factual connection between the games
I thought this bore consideration, but are there any FACTUAL statements to back up the idea that the world of Ivalice in FF:T, FFXII and Vagrant Story are actually the same world, as opposed to simply being superficially similar? - Words of Ivory]]

I would like some confirmation as well. Many Final Fantasy games are similar. What actually tells us that these are all in the same world? They use many of the same images and names but they are used differently in each game. For example, the jagds in TA are the places where characters can actually die, in XII they are where airships cannot fly and jagds seem to be completely unmentioned in Tactics and Vagrant story. -24.6.32.106

I agree. Also in XII, Ivalice seems to be referred as a planet.69.224.94.234 11:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I would like to throw in that I read on some of the other fact pages that the official timeline goes Final Fantast Tactics -> Final Fantasy XII -> Vagrant Story. the source: http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/rpg/finalfantasy12/news.html?sid=6158485 with the qoute: "While Final Fantasy Tactics involved very little technology, the world of Final Fantasy XII is highly technological since it takes place many years past the events of that game." So if someone could fix that, it would be great


 * That is not official. The interview in question is doubtful because there's no transcript, and likely a mistranslation on the interviewers part. By the way, there is a japanese fan site that had taken all its information from the Ultimania and official sources - Squenix - which states that the timeline is thus FFXII > FFT > VG > FFTA. Here's a link for those who can read japanese! http://owb.cool.ne.jp/ivalice/tl/history.htm Don't worry, I know japanese, it's trustworthy. 私はBluerfnです 09:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not convinced. I remember reading an interview transcript somewhere that FFXII did, in fact, take place after FFT (though I understand the argument for it occurring beforehand).  I don't have the source available right now, however, so I suppose it does not matter.  --The Way 01:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we need someone who can confirm the timeline in the FFXII Ultimania story guide. They are usually very comprehensive and, more importantly, official. Unfortuantly, my two months of Japanese 101 aren't up to the task. I would also like to point to the possibility that the games might just share a general setting with no cohesive timeline. This 2003 interview with Matsuno seems to support this. http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=20784


 * “Although it is in the same world that titles like Final Fantasy Tactics and Vagrant Story took place in, it is somewhat different from those worlds - and as we were making Final Fantasy XII, we took liberties with it. So for example, you'll see summon creatures that are different, such as Exodus from FFV, and things like that. As we were going along, of course, we used it as a basis...But we didn't allow it to restrict the creative license.” -24.6.32.106, 17:48 (UTC) Nov 12, 2006


 * Perhaps Final Fantasy XII, Vagrant Story, and Final Fantasy Tactics share the same planet but live in different universes just like the multitude of Marvel Universes that exist with different characters, cities, and technology being incredibly different in each one. I dont like the fact we're crediting a fansite although Im not saying they're wrong, but using direct quotes from the official sources would be much more credible. I might email Square-Enix to get a direct statement.


 * I was always of the opinion that Final Fantasy Tactics took place after Final Fantasy XII. In FFT, technology like airships and firearms are referred to as "lost": there's an airship graveyard, and the characters are unfamiliar with Mustadio's gun. You can read a game script here: http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_tactics_script.txt and doing a ctrl+f for "airship" will take you straight to the relevant passage. Krawnik 01:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * XII actually suggests it's in T's future in one specific location: the 2nd page of bestiary entry of the Magick Pot enemy, which places XII longer after St. Ajora's birth than T was said to take place. Both worlds have lost technology, by the way, as 2nd page of the Dead Bones monster explores, so there's no contradiction there. XII would then seem to be a world beginning to recover from whatever cataclysm destroyed the technological world of Ajora's time. --Made2Fade 11:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

If anyone bought the FFXII Ultimania Omega, there's a section called 'the Study of Ivalice' mentioning the Ivalice connection between the games FFTA, FFT and FFXII, and a little Vagrant Story. There's a timeline printed there, comparing in parallel FFXII events and FFT events and the Ajora connection. I'm trying to get a legitimate translation for this, but so far from what I understand, FFXII happens before FFT. I'll scan the page and post it somewhere. 私はBluerfnです 06:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I posted a scan I took of the timeline between the games. I'm not sure if I had infringed any copyrights, I only wanted to verify the timeline. 私はBluerfnです 08:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not certain the timeline should be used unless someone can actually competently translate it. After all, XII's Ajora was born long before XII, not after, which is not what that timeline seems to indicate. --Made2Fade 12:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've had the image independently translated, and the text given there is correct. In my opinion, it's nothing more than a further indication that Ultimania has no clue what it's talking about. Not only is Saint Ajora's Glabados Church mentioned as being created close to two millenia *before* FF12 (in the Light of Kiltia section of the Clan Primer), the Cache of Glabados is mentioned in FF12's ending as well. Cidolfas 14:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify. It wasn't St Ajora's Glabados Church that was mentioned in the Clan Primer, the one created 2 millenia before FFXII was the Light of Kiltia religion. What I understand - there is this figure Kiltia, existed two millenia before XII, started that religion Light of Kiltia, then years after XII Ajora starts her own Faram cult. 私はBluerfnです 17:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, the Clan Primer says that Ajora's cult was "several years" after the founding of Kiltia. That still places it two thousand years before the present. Cidolfas 05:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you. Still, does nothing more than generate fan speculations. IMHO, Square Enix merely created the so-called connections and references to make the games more interesting. They've been doing that for all their other games. 私はBluerfnです 07:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Er, is it just me, or does the "official" Ultimania COMPLETELY butcher Ivalice time canon? I mean as already mentioned countless times, the bestiary in XII (to the best of my knowledge, being written as a "Modern" 706 article) references the establishment of The Kiltia (already PRESENT in the game regardless), and that Ajora "several years" after comment+2000 years later+Balthier "cache in Galbados"...I mean I'm sorry, there's absolutely nothing in the image or apparently in Ultimania that explains the comments in the bestiary or dates them. I just think the timeline causes a -massive- paradox until Square states otherwise (for the third time?).

DreamRurouni 09:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the timeline given in the Ultimania seems to be pretty much incompatible with the English localisation of the game. Apparently some of the Bestiary entries are vaguer in the Japanese version, though even the Japanese version makes reference to the cache of Glabados, so who knows? --Made2Fade 23:57, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm being bold as to say that the English FFXII Clan Primer was not quite accurate. Japanese FFXII Clan Primer - Hunt Catalog - wrote it down, directly translated, as "from now to several decades later". I have the Ultimania Omega, listing all the entries in the Hunt Catalog. Basically, the entry goes in line with the FFXII timeline. By the way, the Clan Primer is not exactly dated, we don't know for sure when is when. Factual connections aren't actually canon: I actually found a Tantalus group reference in one dialog in Archades, could I say that this game is connected to FFIX? No, exactly. We could just wait for the Revenant Wings, and the Lion War games to come out though, before we resort to making fan-discussions. 私はBluerfnです 08:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Images for Article
I really wish to spice up this Ivalice page with more pictures from Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance and more Final Fantasy XII, and perhaps a screenshot of the VKP Headquarters in Valendia, or Duke Bardorba mansion in Vagrant Story, but I'm not sure if I have any! I ask that people with images to upload some or all so we can have a good, no, great Ivalice article! "...I truly love Yvalice!" - Alma Beoulve 私はBluerfnです 09:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Merging?
Against. Ivalice Alliance is a game series, as like Fabula Nova Crystallis. The article Ivalice is about the location, the setting. However, the locations within the Ivalice Alliance games can be placed in. 私はBluerfnです 07:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Improve
This article, while of Mid-priority, needs major improvements in terms of content, layout and such. I could see that the traffic of this article is small to the point of minimal. Someone suggested adapting the Spira article. But Ivalice have different incarnations in three games, and most references are hard to find. Any suggestion? Bluerです. なにか? 16:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ivalice is only truly different in one game (and we have a source or two to back that up already in the article). TA could have its own subsection on a main Ivalice article due to that, but the others can be covered in one main section, since they're all geographically related. They have some differences in races and such, but that can be covered in the article, too. --77.99.28.91 17:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Ivalice has two different incarnations lest you forget: FFT and FFXII. I've seen the Spira article. It could be done, somehow, but we need to gather references. Bluerです. なにか? 18:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Bluer: Yes, two Ivalices, but one is a kingdom and the other a region. We already know the events of XII and T take place on the same world map, just not on the same regional maps. So they could still go in the same article. --77.99.28.91 18:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes, that's right. Good point, er..77.99.28.91. Yet, there are different elements within two games? How could we achieve doing it on one article? Bluerです. なにか? 19:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I think another article should be done with Gaia, to cover the locations of VII and IX. Then, I think the locations of I-VI and VIII can be transwikied and redirected. &mdash; Deckiller 18:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * But Gaia's different in both games. How do we do that? Bluerです. なにか? 19:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I would disagree with Gaia. It's a completely different planet in both games (or, at least, we've never seen indication they're one and the same). The different elements of Ivalice are largely caused by geography; most of the worldy elements, like magick, are constants. Thus a race section could be set out relevent to the geography or time (During the time of FFT, few human races are shown to dwell in the Kingdom of Ivalice...)/(At the time of FFXII, the region around the Galtean peninsula is very racially diverse...), whereas, say, a look at the metaphysics would be simpler, being the same across the games (though small things like the absence of a mention of Mist in T, or the suppression of magic by the church in VS, would perhaps be relevent). --Made2Fade 19:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * In that case, then there should be no "List of locations..." for VII and IX, then. Same with I-VI and VIII (and maybe Vana'Diel); the "setting" and story synopses on the main articles is enough for those games. &mdash; Deckiller 19:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * On second thought, Gaia from FFVII probably warrents an article because of the heavy sources available and the numerous spinoffs (like X), which should have stuff like Shinra and Midgar merged into it. &mdash; Deckiller 19:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It looks to me like VII's Gaia should have its own article (given the Compilation), but that the others should be left with their lists (excluding, perhaps, Vana'Diel, which might deserve a proper article). Spira has both a list of locations and an overview of the planet, so I'm not certain what the policy is on location lists. Given that a different area of Ivalice is explored each time, and assuming location lists are generally allowed, then each Ivalice game would probably still require it's own location list. The Ivalice article would then deal solely with the issues that the Spira one does (or rather, Ivalice's equivalent of those issues). --Made2Fade 19:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I feel the Locations in Spira article should be merged with the main spira article; the main spira article is already a subarticle, and a lot of Wikipedians are against in-universe subarticles (although Spira, like Ivalice, discusses the setting development and whatnot). The problem with a lot of the other location lists (List of Final Fantasy V locations and List of Final Fantasy II locations, for example) is that there is no out of universe explanation or attribution possible; it will always remain as just a list of every area in the game, which is unencyclopedic per our policies. At least with Spira and Ivalice, and FF7's Gaia, there is deeper information on the story setting, the developers' creation of the world, influences, and its popularity among the public. The other location lists (I-VI, VIII) can't stand on their own, because they can be (and are already) explained in the main articles. They were allowed in the past, but now with the Wikia transwiki option as well as the surge of cracking down on fictional topics, they are beginning to become seen as unnecessary. &mdash; Deckiller 20:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

All right, I have a few suggestions on the content, adapted from a few "fictional worlds" article: A thought? Anyone? = Bluerです. なにか? 09:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Overview - a small description of Ivalice in the games.
 * History - this touches on the many events that have shaped Ivalice, up to present (the game story)
 * Geography - this compiles all the locations, if not major ones, of both games, and the roles they play.
 * Demography - this compiles the races, or nations for T, race cultures, religion - Glabados and Kiltia, possibly adding mythology in them.
 * Design - the natural landscape and architecture, the production staff's interview helps a lot.
 * Other appearances - a proposal: to place the Tactics Advance and Vagrant Story element here.
 * See also - articles that links to Ivalice
 * References - a very, very important part. Insist on citations, because a lot that went in the Ivalice article was fancruft, speculation and trivia - I oppose them with prejudice.

I'd probably put Design at the top of the article, to aid the out-of-universe perspective. Also, what of the timeline? Given its such an issue (and a decently out-of-universe one) I'm tempted to think it should have a section to itself. I would say incorporate it into the Design section, but it does provide in-universe context for the rest of the article, too. So perhaps: Overiew, Design, Timeline in that order, and then the rest following on after that. As for a list of locations, well, an external link to something like FFcompendium should suffice. --Made2Fade 12:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay. I'm creating a template. It should come up in awhile, so everyone can make and review changes there. Bluerです. なにか? 07:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Template is created here: User:Bluerfn/Ivalice Bluerです. なにか? 07:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I have moved the Template to the article, and archived the former shell to the link. Bluerです. なにか? 00:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Glabados
I removed the mention of "But the Glabados church does not exist before XII" remark, it is incorrect. The ending of FFXII takes place after the events of the main game, and may in fact would align with the timeline present in Ultimania of the Glabados creation at the very least. 67.142.130.48 04:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This would only be true of the translation we have of the timeline is inaccurate. It says 'several decades' after 706/FFXII. Therefore Glabados was not established by even the later parts of the ending ,since they were only a year (or was it two?) later. --Made2Fade 20:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Overview
I merged the appearances into the first paragraph, and the bit about design into the Design section. The other stuff in Overview is pointless in light of the rest of the article. Compare the Spira article, for example. A brief overview of the geography is more suited to the individual game articles; there's an entire section for it in this one, so it just seems like a waste of space. --77.99.30.52 15:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Suppose I should log in, lest I appear like some drive-by anon. --Made2Fade 15:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * =D You should have, I thought it was a vandal. Well, the overview was suppose to serve as a brief introductory to the differences of Ivalice in the different games. I don't think it's a waste of space yet, i thought it was good to have it there. Bluerです. なにか? 16:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * My problem with it is mostly due to the repetition. A very brief summary of the geography is already made in the intro, and anyone looking for more than that can check out the respective game pages or look in the Geography section, which explains it in much greater detail. Apart from the geography, my anon edit goes to show the other bits of the section can be merged with other sections quite easily. Of course, lead-in paragraphs themselves are supposed to be an overview, which is another reason, and I feel the article flows better the way I did it. I'll not edit it again if you've a problem with that, though. Either way, that'll teach me for being too lazy to log in XP --Made2Fade 16:10, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Races
Cheers for being so dainty in your approach, there, Nicholai. Couldn't you have integrated that a little better, or else copied it somewhere and let someone else do it? You pretty much trodded over everything, instead. --Made2Fade 22:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The races section was a result of many editor's contributions and was originally written to match the style of a different article (Races of Final Fantasy). There was a need to move the information into a more relevant location and this is it.  The proposal for the move sat for a couple of days on WP:FF with no one doing anything about it beyond discussion except me.  This is one article of 14 that was affected by the proposal and I made the changes to all 14 articles myself, so I'm sorry if I couldn't devote the time to make this one article better suit your fancy.  As opposed to possibly screwing up the information I decided to just copy it exactly as it was so that someone more familiar with Ivalice games should do the final copy-editing and reorganization seeing that the only Ivalice game I've ever played is FFXII and I'm currently only 28 hours into the game for my first play-through ever so I'm obviously not the expert on Ivalice races and am unqualified to make such reorganizations, but you are more than welcome to rearrange them as you would be both more familiar with the races and more familiar with the flow of prose of this article than I would.  Instead of biting off my head you could practice WP:FAITH and WP:CIVIL and give me the benefit of the doubt, such as fixing it yourself to improve upon my contribution or politely asking me why the change was made in the way it was.  But thank you for insulting me instead, I appreciate it!  --&mdash; Δαίδαλος  Σ  Σ  00:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you took that sharper than I intended it. I didn't insult you, I just observed how messy the integration was- read it again with a more fun-poking frame of mind. My point was basically that you could've pasted it somewhere else for safe-keeping, and so allowed it to be integrated a little smoother. Sorry that you took offense. I'm only a casual editor of wikipedia recently (I only touch this article, really), so it's hardly a wonder I hadn't seen the proposal. --Made2Fade 11:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to apologize for my reaction, I was a bit stressed that day and shouldn't have vented on you. It is true, unfortunately, that the tone of a post could be very misleading since I can only read your text and can't hear your voice inflection.  I probably would have laughed and made a witty retort had I heard you speak the same thing.  Yeah, it's a little messy, but it actually was posted somewhere else for safe-keeping awaiting integration.  Since integration, that page doesn't exist anymore, so pointing to it would be useless.  --&mdash; Δαίδαλος  Σ  Σ  16:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge with Ivalice Alliance

 * The result was merge into Ivalice. -- &mdash; Bluerで す. 08:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Ivalice Alliance should be merged into this for the same reasons why Eyes On Me should be merged into Music of FFVIII. This would also help make one Good Article out of a failed GA candidate (this) and a Start-class article (Ivalice Alliance). Kariteh 18:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * My earlier reason against this merger is that Ivalice is a game world/location as opposed to Ivalice Alliance as a series of games, and it's not the same vein as Eyes On Me (a song) merged to Music of FFVIII (the soundtracks). But if there's a chance to make it a GA, why shouldn't it? &mdash; Bluerで す. 19:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Bluer, A world article and a series article should not really be merged together. --&mdash; Δαίδαλος  Σ  19:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This article mentions several games set in Ivalice, and will eventually and necessarily mention all the games of the Ivalice Alliance in one way or another because it has to describe their creations and their settings. Moreover, the Reception section of this article (currently empty) will mostly be redundant with Ivalice Alliance's Reception section. So why not merge the two articles? We already have something much bolder: a series article merged into a sub-article of common themes of a main series article, so why couldn't Ivalice Alliance be in Ivalice? Kariteh 19:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm on the fence, but done the right way, it might make sense that this joins the Ivalice article. Judgesurreal777 06:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you sandbox what your idea of how it would look? Judgesurreal777 05:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's quick: . It deals mostly with the "Creation and influence" section. Regardless of the merge, this section has to mention the games of the Ivalice Alliance anyway, so it does in that sandbox version. With that, the rest of the Ivalice Alliance article is then redundant and superfluous. The "Other appearances" in the Ivalice article is unnecessary because FFTA should be integrated in the rest of the article like any other game, and the "Reception and criticism" section (currently void in both articles) should speak about what people felt about Ivalice in FFT, (VS), FFTA, FFXII, and the Ivalice Alliance games. And the rest of the article needs trimming and more out of universe sources, but that's a different problem. Kariteh 13:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I really like it. We should get some more feedback before we merge it though. Judgesurreal777 05:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * We should heed the advice on WP:FF, stop the Merging frenzy and concentrate on the main articles. &mdash; Bluerで す. 06:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I had removed the tag to say my agreement, and the merger can proceed (pressed the save page before finishing edit summary - which was "rm tag for merger"). I am also sure that the Japan Wikipedia's Ivalice article looks like the best approach for this "out-of-focus" article; the example have merged Ivalice Alliance. If anything, the meager merger of Ivalice Alliance is appropriate. But again, we should concentrate on main articles now. :) &mdash; Bluerで す. 07:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't know the process required the removal of the tag before the merger, sorry. Since it's really just a small paragraph to add, I'm going to go ahead and do the merge, even though I agree that's about it and we should concentrate on other articles (it's not like there is any focus on this article anyhow). Oops it's already done aha. Kariteh 07:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)