Talk:Ivan Lendl/Archive 1

Untitled
What is the source for the statement about the Flushing Meadows hardcourt on Lendl's lawn? Google only seems to find it on Wikipedia mirrors. -- Jao 08:36, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC) I know that Ivan had talk about it himself, it is also stated in 2001 ATP Players Guide in Lendl's biography -- Feardes 14:10, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we need a picture.

Lendl holds the record for the most Men's Grandslam single finals
Something often overlooked is that Lendl holds the record at 19 Grand Slam singles finals. Some people say - yes, but he lost 11, not a good record (42%). That is a nonsensical statement, because of the following illustration: What represents a better record - Winning 8 Grandslam finals, and losing in the first round for 11 others - giving a grand slam final record of 100%. Or making 19 Grand slam finals losing 11 for a winning percentage of 42%. Obviously the latter because it is a far more impressive feat to make a Grand slam final than lose in the first round.
 * Not nonsensical at all. The argument is that it's a poor GS Finals record, which it is, not that it's bad to reach 19 GS finals in the first place. The previous commenter is employing a fallacy, called a Straw Man, and therefor it's an invalid argument. We can't make a good comparison between GS finals won and GS finals reached, it's apples versus oranges.

Carlo Colussi 10:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure Lendl has a poor percentage (42%) in Grand Slam tournaments finals but one can calculate Lendl's "Grand Slam tournaments finals played / Grand Slam tournaments played" percentage : it is probably one of the best in the "open era".


 * No, Lendl's percentage in that regard is so-so:

N__name__GS__GSFIN__WON__reached__finalswon

1_borg_____46__16_____11______34,78%__68,75%

2_nadal____45__16_____11______35,56%__68,75%

3_federer___61__24_____17______39,34%__70,83%

4_sampras_31__18_____14_______58,06%__77,78%

5_LENDL__58__19______08______32,76%__42,11%

6_connors_59__15______08______25,42%__53,33%

7_djokovic_52__08______05______15,38%__62,50%

8_agassi__53___15_____08______28,30%__53,33%

9_mcenroe_33__11_____07______33,33%__63,64%

10_becker_27___10_____06_____37,04%__60,00%

I took all the data from wikipedia, and all the major players who won 5 or more GS titles. CrashTestSmartie (talk) 20:13, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

However, 4 of Lendl's victories were against Mecir, Mecir, Pernfors, Edberg (injured), Mecir ad Pernfors being top-10 journeymen at best with no Grandslam titles to their name. So in reality, he only won 4 of his 18 Finals against champion-quality players. In an era littered with such players, Edberg, Wilander, McEnroe, Connors, Becker, Borg (partial), Sampras (partial), Agassi.

Also, Lendl was 1 of 7 at one point in Grand Slam finals. The only victory coming 1984 French Open against McEnroe in what is widely considered a result of McEnroe's own implosion on court while leading 2-0 and up a break too, I believe. By this time, Lendl had won numerous smaller tournaments in 1981,82,83,84,85. So this reflects his limitations as a "weak big-match player against the very elite competitors." I would say Lendl's 1985 US Open win over McEnroe was a rare big-match win. Only a 16-month frame in 1986-1987 was a period where he dominated all top-flight players of the time.

To 74.97.220.121 Please sign your posts. Eudemis (talk) 07:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Lendl was 1 of 6 at one point in Slam finals (not 1 of 7). McEnroe was not up two sets and a break, just two sets; he got tired under the strong sun and Lendl outlasted him. It is "widely" regarded as McEnroe's implosion largely because McEnroe called it a choke; he has always had a very hard time giving Lendl credit. So he has widely, publicly called it a choke -- all the time, as if his reputation depended on it (with most true chokes, you don't see the choker mentioning it all the time; McEnroe in this case has a real motivation to call it a choke).

As for Lendl's wins, he beat an injured Edberg, but the very next year they met again in the semis, with Edberg healthy and ranked #1; Lendl won in five sets. Mecir is a dangerous opponent with big wins at the Slams over Edberg, Becker and Wilander; but Lendl figured out how to neutralize him. Pernfors is the weakest opponent, but at that tournament he beat Becker, Edberg, Leconte. Besides, Lendl was the overwhelming favorite at that tournament and it is difficult to see anyone, that year, beating him. Big names like Wilander fell earlier in the tournament, which is the only reason Lendl didn't face a "big name" in the final.

From the 1985 USO to the end of 1987 he was the dominant player: that's 27 months (not 16). He beat Becker in two big year-end Masters championships in January 1986 and December '86, and finished '87 winning the Masters again. And as you know, taking years as a whole, he was the best player three years in a row (1985-87). The only period in there where he wasn't dominant was the first half of 1985 when he had some wins over McEnroe but still had not overthrown him from #1.Krosero (talk) 20:51, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I think most of this discussion rather belongs to a tennis forum. a wikipedia article is not to rate a player, but to list facts. it was a fact that he had the most grand slam final appearances for men's singles (and is now second in that list). how one rates the value of this information is up to the reader. (Guest, 15 Feb 2010) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.130.226.54 (talk) 15:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Nationality
I changed his nationality to Czechoslovakia/United States as I think it's a misleading to classify him as American when he won no titles after he became a citizen of the USA and all of his success, for which he is known, was as a Czechoslovakian.

Supposed unofficial titles
I've changed the section title "Other singles titles (unofficial) (15)" in "Other singles titles including invitational tournaments titles (15)" because if some tournaments have been just invitational ones other were completely official but forgotten or not included by the ATP : for instance Forest Hills 1990.

Do not forget that tennis has existed for a century before the ATP and that the ATP statistics of the start of the open era are very incomplete : for instance for 1969 the ATP Website just shows three meetings (Australian, Philadelphia and US Opens) between Roche and Laver whereas in reality Roche led Laver 5-4 that year : January 19, Roche won the New South Wales Open in Sydney 64 46 97 1210 over Laver in the final ; January 25 or 26, Laver beat Roche in the semifinal of the Australian Open, Brisbane, 75 2220 911 16 63 ; February 3, Roche b Laver in the New Zealand Open final, Auckland, 61 64 46 63 ; February 9, Philadelphia Open final, Laver b Roche 75 64 64 ; February 13 or 18, Hollywood (Florida) Pro final, Roche b Laver 63 97 64 ; February 26 or 27 or 28, Oakland Pro final, Roche b Laver 46 64 119 ; May, Amsterdam Pro 3rd place, Roche b Laver 63 36 62 ; September 7, US Open, Forest Hills, final, Laver b Roche 79 61 61 62 ; November 22 or 23, Wills Open Covered Courts, Queen's Club & Wembley Arena Laver b Roche 64 61 63.

Many tournaments of that era are missing, for example the Dunlop Sydney Open in March 1970 (winner Laver) or the 1973-1974 New South Wales Championships (winner Mal Anderson and Tony Roche) or the 1970 US Indoor Open tournament in Salisbury (winner Nastase) or the 1970 Wembley Pro tournament (winner Laver).

So the ATP statistics being very incomplete until the 70s other statistics shall not be considered as unofficial. Though the ATP claims that Connors is the player having won the most titles (105) it is completely untrue : Rod Laver (with at least 181 wins), Bill Tilden, Jaroslav Drobny and Ken Rosewall have won more tournaments than Connors. ATP statistics are just open era statistics far from being exhaustive for the first years of that open era and ATP Statistics are not the only official statistics.

Carlo Colussi 09:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

WHERE ARE PICTURES OF IVAN LENDL???

Please add io:Ivan Lendl
Please, add the link to the Ido wikipedia: io:Ivan Lendl —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.161.186.161 (talk) 21:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

Pronunciation
What language is the pronunciation in? I don't think it is supposed to be the English pronunciation yet Czech would be different (no schwas, the first schwa would be same as tub and the second wouldn't be there at all, the ultimate 'l' acts as a sonorant in Czech). +Hexagon1 (t) 07:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Request for wider input on discussion at WikiProject Tennis
There is a long, ongoing discussion at WP:Tennis about the tournament tables found in tennis articles on English-language Wikipedia (e.g., this type of table). The discussion is about whether the "official sponsored name" of a tournament - such as Pacific Life Open - or another tournament name without the sponsor - such as Indian Wells Masters - must be used in those articles. Please join the discussion here. Thanks. Tennis expert (talk) 09:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

POV-section
The following language needs to be addressed for this article to remain neutral in tone: The Rambling Man (talk) 15:17, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "...came to the tennis world's attention as an outstanding junior player."
 * "...made an almost immediate impact on the game..."
 * "...to claim what was arguably his most memorable victory..."
 * "1985 was arguably Lendl's best year on the tour..."
 * "He was the driving force behind the country's team..."
 * "Lendl's success in the game had a lot to do with his highly meticulous and intensive training and physical conditioning regime, his scientific approach to preparing for and playing the game, and a strong desire to put in whatever it took to be successful. It is believed that a contributing factor to his run of eight successive US Open finals and long record of success at that tournament was that he hired the same workers who laid the hardcourt surfaces at Flushing Meadows each year to install an exact copy in the grounds of his home in Greenwich, Connecticut."
 * "It is an irony that the man who made such a religion of physical fitness had to close the career due to the health problems."
 * "Lendl's professional attitude, modern playing style, scientific training methods, and unprecedented long-term success have had a considerable impact on today's tennis world."

I disagree with all of the above, unless there are sources which state the opposite of each claim. If you think the problem is that the language isn't neutral enough, please suggest phrases that are, in your opinion, more neutral.CrashTestSmartie (talk) 18:43, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

"...Lendl's Americanized living style..."

what does this even mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.10.46.8 (talk) 22:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree, this should be removed, or replaced by something that reflects the political situation. It's a fact that the Czechoslovakian government and probably a lot of his fellow Czechoslovakians felt at the time that he betrayed their country and them. There could be some mention in the article that reflects all this, but "...Lendl's Americanized living style..." is a very poor way of doing that.CrashTestSmartie (talk) 18:43, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

It means he's been a naughty, naughty boy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.77.85.194 (talk) 02:31, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

career statisitics
does he have a career stats page? --P34c0ck1991 (talk) 16:56, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Personal
It is mentioned that he was married in 1989. Shouldn't it also be included that he began living with his eventual wife when she was 14 or 15 (sources vary)? L3kn (talk) 18:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

He won three consecutive US Open titles.
People, please. He won three consecutive US Open titles. Can`t the wikipedia live with it? Basic information, you know. Something to hide? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.60.11.222 (talk) 05:47, 15 October 2011 (UTC)