Talk:Ivory (wrestler)/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Hi, I'll be reviewing this article. I usually do reviews in 3 stages:
 * coverage and structure.
 * the nitty-gritty stuff about refs, copyedits and image copyright / use.
 * lead, once the main content is done.

Coverage and structure
I know zip about pro wrestling, but I notice the scope and structure are similar to those of FAs on pro wrestlers, e.g. Shelton Benjamin, so I'll assume for now that coverage and structure are OK.

1986–1990s

 * ✅ The cited web page does not say the first audition was in 1986.
 * I took out the specific year.
 * ✅ If there are are no 3rd-party accounts of the first audition, I suggest e.g. "Moretti says that ..." (see next item).
 * Done.
 * ✅ Sentence "In 1986, Moretti attended an audition—at the urging of a friend—held by the newly-formed Las Vegas, Nevada-based Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling (GLOW) while still attending the University of Southern California" looks a bit tortuous to me. How about e.g. "In 1986, while attending the University of Southern California, Moretti was in her own words "dragged by a friend" to an audition held by the newly-formed Las Vegas, Nevada-based Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling (GLOW)"?
 * Added, but I put in some dashes to separate "in her own words" from the rest of the sentence.
 * ✅ Might be worth adding before the audition that she wrestled with 2 brother and a sister at home - it's amusing and explains why the friend dragged her to the audition (tho not how).
 * Added.
 * ✅ What does MOS say about aliases? I'd expect "Tina Ferrari" in quotes, especially as Ms Moretti has used a few aliases. OTOH I know movie and pop stars are known mainly by their performing names, without quotes.
 * Not sure. Most of the other wrestling articles don't use quotes unless the ring name is like "The American Dream" Dusty Rhodes for Dusty Rhodes (wrestler). Also, I'm not sure how it would look to add quotes every time the name "Hulk Hogan" is mentioned in Terry Bollea's article.
 * Makes sense to me, OK.
 * ✅ I'd be inclined to combine the sentences beginning "She was successful in her audition and went on to train ..." and "She debuted ...". I'd also avoid debuted, as for me at least that suggests a specific debut contest / appearance, which makes me want to know details such as opponent and result.
 * Combined.
 * ✅ I wikikinked tag team.
 * I moved the wikilink because of the addition of the fact right below this one.
 * OK.
 * ✅ "Tina Ferrari formed a tag team with Ashley Cartier known as "T & A" " oww profile of Ivory - go on, give the readers a laugh.
 * Added.
 * ✅ Dates of championships?
 * Not that I can find (from a reliable source anyway).
 * IIRC some the "Slam" articles already cited give dates & titles.
 * For the GLOW and PWOW titles? I didn't see them. Which article?
 * OK, sometimes sources are not too helpful. --Philcha (talk) 10:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ "She remained with the company until it went bankrupt." Needs a ref.
 * I couldn't find one, so I just removed the sentence.
 * ✅ I'm surprised you de-linked a few items, e.g. Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling. Not that I'm on favour of linking everything, but e.g. I think "Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling" needs more explanation than e.g. "Las Vegas, Nevada". What do you think? --Philcha (talk) 22:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That was unintentional. It happened as a result of copying and pasting the sentence you suggested into the article. I just didn't notice the link went away, too. I've fixed it now. Nikki  ♥  311  01:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ I think "For the next two years, she made appearances with the Ladies Sports Club and Ladies Professional Wrestling Association" has some problems:
 * Purple Fusions is a fan site. While I'm more liberal than most about the interpretation of WP:RS "popular culture" articles, a partisan of one particular wrestler is expected to have a POV and therefore I don't see how it can be a WP:RS.
 * Purple Fusions does not mention Ladies Sports Club nor Ladies Professional Wrestling Association. In fact "Q&A" appears only in one small box on the right. I notice also that Ladies Professional Wrestling Association mentions Lisa Moretti only in the "Alumni" section. --Philcha (talk) 10:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I see the problem here. If you click on "Interaction" and then the "Q and A" what I sited gets brought up, but the url doesn't change from the main page url. While I normally I agree with you about fansites (which is why I had never been to this page before), what I sited was from an interview they did with her. Do you think I should remove it? Nikki  ♥  311  20:31, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd like to give the owner of that site Purple Contusions! At least 3 major design faults: it's the crappiest way to use Iframes, but I won't bore you with why, or what's better, except that it prevents direct linking to a specific page (unless you're a sneaky bastard, see below); the whole thing is illegible because the "Interaction Menu" comes up with a blue background in my browser (the latest version of Firefox, which now has over 40% of the market); the hotspots in the menu links are tiny. The actual content you refer to is here, it has a blue background too, and they don't even have the wit to include a script that forces it into the main page layout - and the font size is minute. There's a trick that makes it legible - drag the mouse over the whole of the content (changes the bg by selecting the text) - but how many readers will think of that? I got it by finding the tiny, illegible link in the menu, right-clicking that, then copying and pasting the URL into my browser's Address bar. Then made it legible by telling my browser to display it without the site's styling. Users should not have to wrestle with web sites.
 * It also has material that comments on the "missing years" and other chronology. However you'd have to preface it all with "Lisa Moretti said that ...".
 * I have to conclude that refs to Purple Cont Fusions are unusable because the site is unusable. However I extracted from it a link to this article in a San Juan local web newspaper, which seems to be on the money for at least some points, and has a few other snippets you may find useful. --Philcha (talk) 10:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * ✅ The source you've cited says nothing about PWOW / Powerful Women of Wrestling. Ivory's profile gives her ring names with PWOW but that's all. --Philcha (talk) 09:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.canoe.ca/SlamWrestlingWM2000/apr13_ivory.html says "Other women's titles would follow, like the POWW (typo) belt; so did other names, including Tina Moretti and Nina." Ivory's profile says "Nina (PWOW)", "Tina Moretti (PWOW)", and "POWW (Powerful Women of Wrestling) title (2)" Nikki  ♥  311  20:13, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for explaing the profile's typo. --Philcha (talk) 19:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Debut and Women's Champion (1999)

 * ✅ "In March 1999, Moretti returned to wrestling ..." How long was she out and what was she doing?
 * I've never read anything that said. I'll keep looking.
 * I added two companies she worked for for at least two of the years.
 * If you mean "For the next two years, she made appearances with the Ladies Sports Club and Ladies Professional Wrestling Association," see comments above. --Philcha (talk) 10:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * ✅ In 1999 she was over 37, do lady wrestlers normally go on for so long and especially re-enter the game at an age when most sportspersons have retired or are about to?
 * Not these days, but I don't think I've ever seen anything that mentioned anything about that, so I don't think I should comment on it. In fact, they usually don't mention the females' ages on TV (or lie about them) to make them seem younger and more desirable, so it wouldn't be something they would want to bring attention to. I'll continue to look, though.
 * ✅ Should the link for the Godfather etc. point to http://uk.sports.ign.com/articles/881/881587p2.html?
 * Yes. Fixed.
 * ✅ I've w-linked Raw.
 * Okay. :)
 * ✅ http://uk.sports.ign.com/articles/881/881587p2.html does not support "... televised WWF in-ring debut on the February 15 episode of Raw ... no-contest."
 * Unless I'm missing something, it is sourced by http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/profiles/i/ivory.html.
 * ✅ Re "Moretti managed the tag team of Mark Henry and D'Lo Brown", http://www.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/07/22/1143660.html says "She was introduced as a valet for D'Lo Brown and Mark Henry, ..."
 * Those words are almost interchangeable these days, but I changed it to "acted as the valet for" to be consistent with the source.
 * {done}} I don't see how http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/profiles/i/ivory.html supports "... assisting them in their rivalry with Jeff Jarrett and Owen Hart. This rivalry led to several confrontations between Moretti and Debra, Jarrett's manager."
 * Removed.
 * ✅ I don't see how http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/profiles/i/ivory.html supports"... whom she feuded with throughout March."
 * Removed.
 * ✅ I don't see how http://www.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/07/22/1143660.html supports "After the storyline with D'Lo Brown and Mark Henry ended" (that specific phrase).
 * Removed.
 * ✅ http://slam.canoe.ca/SlamWrestlingArchive/aug23_fol.html refers to "Tori" as "Torrie".
 * It is Tori. They just spelled it wrong in that article for some reason. See here for her OWOW profile with her name spelled correctly and here for the OWOW results.
 * ✅ This whole section seems to have the wrong tone, presenting it as serious wrestling when the sources make it seem like "glamour models play rough" - see e.g. http://slam.canoe.ca/SlamWrestlingPPV/dec13_armageddon.html "The swimming pool gimmick shows you just how serious the WWF is about the Women's title. ... Gee, the Women's Title goes to another non-wrestler."
 * You're right. I'm going to leave this one alone for now, though, as I'll need time to figure out a way to word the section without going overboard.
 * Hopefully I've fixed this now.

Right to Censor (1999–2001)

 * ✅ Chronology seems odd: "In late 1999 ... On January 23 ...". I've copyedited to "January 23, 2000".
 * Okay. I agree with that.
 * ✅ Rocky wins the Rumble – A bloody Triple H defeats Cactus Jack would be a more useful ref for the 2000 swimsuit contest, except that it does not support "grudgingly".
 * Okay. I've added it. I've also added, which says she was "reluctant" to participate.
 * ✅ http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/profiles/i/ivory.html does not say the 1 May 2000 contest was for the world championship.
 * No, but it does say the March 9 match was. I changed "early 2000" to "March 9" to clarify.
 * ✅ As a counter-balance to all the fluff, http://slam.canoe.ca/SlamWrestlingPPV/nov20_wwf-can.html thought Ivory vs Lita (Survivor Series 2000) "illustrated to what heights women's wrestling is capable of reaching in North America if the right talent is permitted to  strut their stuff in a wrestling ring and not a pit full of jello."
 * That would definitely be an interesting quote to add to contrast to the "swimming pool matches" from 1999. Added.
 * ✅ http://slam.canoe.ca/SlamWrestlingPPV/dec11_wwfarm-can.html says nothing about " Stratus and Molly Holly at Armageddon on December 10", it only mentions Venis & Chyna & Ivory.
 * It is farther down on the page. It says " Ivory pins Trish in a blink-and-you-will-miss-it encounter" under the heading "Molly Holly (challenger) versus Trish Stratus (challenger) versus Ivory (champion) (WWF Women's World Heavyweight Title Match)".
 * ✅ No source for "feuding with Chyna after she posed for Playboy in late 2000" (Chyna, I presume).
 * Clarified that it was Chyna and added, which shows Ivory and her alliance had a series of matches and confrontations with Chyna.
 * http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/profiles/i/ivory.html covers the feud, but does not mention Playboy. I think you'd have to demonstrate a connection.
 * From the book Action Chicks: New Images of Tough Women in Popular Culture p.201: "One recent feud was with the wrestling group 'Right to Censor,'... . The group's conflict with Chyna focused on her posing in Playboy and her 'flaunting' of her body..."
 * Nice catch! --Philcha (talk) 10:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * ✅ No source for "Right to Censor disbanded shortly thereafter, with each member disappearing from WWF television."
 * Reworded and added this source, which also happens to source that she was the valet for Lance Storm (in the next section), so I've added it there, too.
 * That page gives 26 Apr 2001. Since you know the subject and I still don't (slow learner!), I'll leave it to you.
 * Good catch. That was a typo.

Sporadic appearances (2001–2005)

 * ✅ http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/columns/2007/stevenm04.html describes the Invasion, should be cited to inform non-afficionados.
 * I'm reluctant to add that because it seems to be a column that was first posted in a forum instead of being written by staff. I think non-afficionados can get the idea from The Invasion (professional wrestling), which is wikilinked in the article.
 * What a grey area! IMO the comment at the top, "Editor's Note: The author of this column can be contacted via the OWW Forums, where this submission was first posted" looks like an adoption of the original forum post, i.e. the Editor was happy with its content and tone. I'd accept it as a source, and I still think the Invasion content here needs a ref.
 * That makes sense, so I've added it.
 * ✅ No source for ".. she eventually defected to the WWF."
 * Removed.
 * ✅ http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/profiles/i/ivory.html does not support "She later went on to manage The Hurricane and Lance Storm".
 * "The Hurricane & Storm w/Molly & Ivory to retain the WCW Tag titles". This indicates that Ivory accompanied them to the ring. Also also indicates that she accompanied the duo to the ring. Since the word "manage" isn't mentioned, though, I've reworded the sentence.
 * I don't know whether the wrestling use of "manage" / "manager" is odd or the use of these terms in any individual sport is odd. In boxing a manager practically runs the fighter's life. In tennis the relationship seems more fluid: my impression is that Roger Federer's girl-friend works as his personal assistant but he actually makes the decisions; OTOH Ion Tiriac had a more influential role in at least the commercial aspects of Boris Becker's career. How many readers will recognise the relatively minor role of a "manager" in wrestling?
 * Everything about pro wrestling is odd! I agree that a non-fan would over-estimate the role of a manager (who sometimes doesn't manage anything and does little more than walk to the ring with whomever they are "managing"). That is something I am going to take into account in my future editing.
 * "feud" / "feuding" is another tricky term, as it appears to refer to a storyline rather than to an actual disagreement between the contestants. --Philcha (talk) 10:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * ✅ The sources say she served as a coach on Tough Enough, but not specifically 2nd series - nor 3rd!
 * cites Tough Enough II and cites the 3rd. Both have been added.
 * ✅ http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2006/04/25/1549780.html says nothing about Ohio Valley.
 * It does. Quote: "It was the same thing at OVW, when I was there for eight weeks." OVW = Ohio Valley Wrestling. I removed the date, though, because neither article specified when.
 * ✅ The cited page says she hosted a show with Grisham but not "In May of that year, she and Todd Grisham began hosting WWE Experience."
 * I found and added, which specifies that it was May 2004.
 * ✅ Sadly http://www.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/07/22/1143660.html does not give date when WWE released Moretti.
 * It does. In the upper left hand corner (under the giant SLAM!) the date July 22, 2005 is given, which is the date the article was posted. The article itself mentions the announcement of her release on wwe.com was "today". I'm not sure why I didn't just put July 22, 2005 in the article instead of July 2005, but I've added the specific date now.
 * In red on red - I'll shoot their Web designer! --Philcha (talk) 12:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Independent circuit

 * ✅ Why does this section not mention matches after the win against Knox?
 * I added when she lost the SuperGirls title, but she doesn't seem to have had any matches after that.
 * Reasonable, given my ageist comments above --Philcha (talk) 10:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * ✅ Why no mention of her comments on how she was enjoying the indie circuit? (one of the interview pages cited earlier)
 * Added.

Personal life

 * ✅ I'm surprised how little this says, compared with how much info we get about celebs in other fields - friends, enemies, relations with the media, "significant others", causes they support, public appearances other than in competition, etc. There's more info than this at Stefan Edberg, a start-class article about the most self-effacing men's tennis champ of the last 25 years. --Philcha (talk) 15:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've found a little bit more information.
 * I'm afraid it's supported only by Purple Fusions, which I don't think is a WP:RS and which now appears not to mention the items you've added. --Philcha (talk) 10:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * See my comment above. This time the information is just a copy of an article from a magazine that they posted online, but once again, the url doesn't change from the main page, even as you navigate through the cite. I'll delete the information, though, if you think that is best. Nikki  ♥  311  20:34, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * See comments above about Purple Cont Fusions, --Philcha (talk) 10:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * ✅ 2 successive sentences beginning with "After leaving WWE".
 * ✅ Need to explain "no-kill animal shelter" - it may be common in USA, but this Brit is unfamiliar with the term.
 * ✅ Needs a little copyediting. --Philcha (talk)
 * I believe I've taken care of these. Nikki  ♥  311  20:19, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Wrestlers managed

 * ✅ Given the meaning of "managed" in this context ("walked down the aisle with but didn't marry"), I'd scrap this section. --Philcha (talk) 10:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree. That section (and/or a list of managers) is in every single wrestling biography article on Wikipedia, including all the bios in Category:FA-Class Professional wrestling articles and Category:GA-Class Professional wrestling articles. Even if I do remove it, it'll be added back by somebody else in two seconds. Plus, it is within a section entitled In wrestling, which a wrestling fan would look for (and know the meaning of) and a non-fan would outright ignore. Nikki  ♥  311  22:18, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, you know your audience better than I do. --Philcha (talk) 09:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. I'm pretty busy this week, but I will address these when I get some spare time. :) Nikki  ♥  311  17:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Nikki311, not much left now. Keep up the good work. --Philcha (talk) 12:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think I am pretty much done now, except for one or two that I wasn't able to find information for. What are your thoughts now? Nikki  ♥  311  03:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm beginning to see how difficult writing articles about pro wrestling is, because there are so few clear-cut WP:RS. Lisa Moretti seems a particularly difficult subject, as she apparently wants to vanish when not in the ring. If you're not sure that a source qualifies as WP:RS, I think it's better to omit things and accept that there will be gaps. --Philcha (talk) 10:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've removed everything from Purple Con Fusions. :) I also added quite a bit of information from the article you found (which was great btw!!!). Nikki  ♥  311  22:18, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Championships and accomplishments

 * ✅ Since these are significant I'd expect a ref for each. Sorry for not spotting this before. --Philcha (talk) 09:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Nikki  ♥  311  20:19, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Images
✅ Only one, copyright looks OK. --Philcha (talk) 19:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm about to mark this as a GA. Thanks for all the work you've put into this - as I said above, writing articles about pro wrestling that satisfy GA criteria is difficult. --Philcha (talk) 19:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Oops - the lead says nothing about her work with animals - please add. --Philcha (talk) 20:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Added. Thanks for doing such a great review. I know professional wrestling isn't everybody's favorite topic to review. :) Nikki  ♥  311  21:39, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

- - - - - - please add review comments / responses above this line - - - - - -