Talk:Iyalawo

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Controversy
In the Americas and parts of Nigeria, such as Ode Remo and parts of Ijebuland, the position of the Iyalawo as a divining priestess of Ifá is contested on the grounds that in the Ifá Odus Ogunda Ka and Oshe Yekun'', no one can become a full Awo Ifá without the presence of Orisha Odu, and in the Odu Ifá Irete Ntelu (Irete Ogbe), Odu herself says that she would only marry Orunmila if he promised not to permit women to be in the same room as her. These views appear to be suggested by books published in Nigeria as far back as the 19th century. For instance, the eminent Yoruba author James Johnson wrote in one of the most detailed early descriptions of Ifá that "Whenever this should be the case, a woman would receive from a Babalawo only one Ikin or Consecrated Palm nut called Eko, which she would carry about her body for her protection, and whenever divination should recommend and prescribe to her sacrifice to Ifa, she would, for the time being, hand over her Eko either to her husband or to her brother, or any other male relative according to prescription, who would include it in his own Ikins for the purpose of the worship and sacrifice in which she would participate." William Bascom, the foremost academic authority on Ifá among the Yoruba up until the time of his death, conducted extensive field work Yorubaland in 1937-38, 1950–51, and as late as 1960 and 1965. This field work was conducted in a large number of areas of Yorubaland including the cities of Ife, Igana, Meko, Oyo, Ilesa, Abeokuta, Osogbo, Sagamu, Ilara, Ondo, Ijebu Ode or Ekiti in Yorubaland. At no time during this prolonged series of studies did Dr. Bascom encounter a female Ifá priest or an informant who had heard of such a thing leading him to state unequivocally that “only men can be babalawos." Sources from Yorubaland going back to the mid-19th century generally state that only men can become Ifá diviners, although it is true that the Reverend Samuel Johnson did say in "The History of the Yorubas" that in his day, the Ifá priests of imperial Oyo were led by the Iyalemole, the priestess of the Alaafin's personal oracle. ''

In the Ifá Literary Corpus that Awos use for confirmation in the odu EjiOgbe'' which documents that Orunmila initiated his firstborn daughter. The arguments of Odu forbidding women are noted by the fact that Odu itself is feminine and means womb and her nature is to give birth. The odu is for men to become like a woman and have a womb. Women do not need an artificial womb because they were born with one. ''

''While Ode Remo now takes a posture of not initiating women, it demonstrates a history to the contrary as noted in "Women in the Yoruba Religion" by Ode Remo author Oluwo Olotunji Somorin and other sources. ''
 * As mentioned above, even in the acknowledged spiritual capital of the Yoruba, women were not initiated into Ifa until at least the 1990s due to the Odus mentioned above, so the Iyanifa/Iyalawo is not traditional at least in Ile Ife. Either the controversies involved should be addressed in this article or all mention of the Iyanifa/Iyalawo should be removed from here as well as in the article Babalawo as it would give an obvious bias to one side of the controversy in the articles. Lozen8 (talk) 17:31, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I believe both POVs should be included as Iyalawo's are initiated in the present-day (regardless of past initiation customs for women). Omo Obatalá  (talk) 17:40, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Please return the controversy section to the Iyalawo page. Also, please retain all references, including your own (I suggest you include the argument regarding Baba Ejiogbe and that proponents feel that "Iyalawo's are initiated in the present-day (regardless of past initiation customs for women)" as well as those stating the other side of the issue (including the Bascom, Johnson and Eason references). It should all be done using NEUTRAL language, trusting the good readers of Wikipedia to come to their own conclusions. A reference to the controversy should be placed in the beginning of Babalawo where the Iyalawo is mentioned so interested readers can come to Iyalawo if they are interested in learning more about the controversy. Thank you. Lozen8 (talk) 18:11, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * It seems that after you agreed to include both points of view, you have now removed all mention of the controversy from this page. For obvious reasons, I have reverted the page until which time I can do a proper edit. Thank you.Lozen8 (talk) 05:39, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I have reverted what is now an obvious attempt to astroturf Omo Obatala's idealogy. As she/he seems intent on constant reverting of this article, we may have little choice but to escalate the issue or propose it for deletion as a WP:Point violation.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lozen8 (talk • contribs) 15:08, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Please provide reliable sources to back up your claims; also, please try to reach consensus before adding controversial issues to the article. Your demonstration of WP:Point is invalid; perhaps you might be interested in understanding Wikipedia's WP:COI policy. Omo Obatalá  (talk) 17:12, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * As you well know, the subject of the Iyanifa (or Iyalawo as call it) is a controversial one in its entirety. You yourself agreed above to retaining a discussion of the controversy, thus reaching a consensus. You were also invited to edit th article to make sure both sides of the issue are adequately addresses. Instead you deleted the entire section regardingthe controversy. I have provided citations to reliable (academic) sources on the subject. Please realize that most of your citations are to web pages and self-published works which are not considered the most reliable sources. Please read reliable sources. Wikipedia is intended to be informative and neutral, not a personal forum to air personal viewpoints or to propagandize in favor of one side of an issue or another. I have formally requested mediation. Thank you.Lozen8 (talk) 18:33, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed it is controversial for some. Consensus was reached, however, it became WP:UNDUE, therefore, it wasn't WP:NPOV. I did not provide any citations regarding the subject so please do not accuse me of such. Omo Obatalá  (talk) 20:41, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

A consensus among whom precisely? And I wouldn't sell myself short like that. Although, as far as sheer numbers go, the Lucumis are generally acknowledged as having a large majority. According to Wikipedia, in Nigeria the traditional practitioners make up only 1.4% of the population and the Ooni of Ife the spiritual capital of the Yoruba is a born again Christian, and the Alafin of Oyo is a Muslim. Of course in Latin America and in the United States, the vast majority are Lucumi although the neo-traditionlists are making some significant gains in the U.S. Despite this. the views of neo-traditionalists (such as I have to presume you must be) also have value.Lozen8 (talk) 00:34, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Do not presume. Omo Obatalá  (talk) 13:44, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

I am going to have to revert this as, your assertions that "Odus are found throughout the Ifa Literary Corpus that speak of women being initiated into Ifa," and "odus such as Ogbe Irete speak of everyone having a right to know their destiny which is only found through initiation" are misleading at best. No one is contesting that women cannot be initiated or know their destiny. As all of us involved in the religion are aware, there are initiations both in the New World and Old World forms of the religion which reveal our destiny that don't involve being initiated as a diviner as such. The statement you removed is accurate as no one has been able to find even a single odu mentioning either a Iyalawo (a term appearing only in the last ten years or so) or a Iyanifa. The fact remains that almost all the Iyanifas and 'Iyalawos' are in the United States. Again while the numbers of neo-traditional/African Traditional Religion practitioners are certainly growing, again particularly in the U.S., the fact remains that the Diaspora practitioners still far outnumber them and the Yorubas who practice the traditional religions combined. It seems you are trying to use Wikipedia to create acceptance of your personal viewpoint and to give the (false) impression that Iyalawos are a common and generally accepted practice, either in Yorubaland or in the Diaspora (the New World). None of us know the changes that may occur to the various forms of the religion in the next twenty years or so, but I don't believe Wikipedia is necessarily the place to try to effect those changes artificially. The fact is that the Iyanifa and Iyalawo are new innovations which were unheard of in Yorubaland or the New World until the 1970s and which may or may not become widely accepted in the future, only time will tell. Also, web forums are not usually considered valid sources on Wikipedia. Lozen8 (talk) 15:58, 14 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I am placing this information here because it has been a discussion I have been having with Omo Obatala on his page. Since there is a subcommittee looking into potential bias and abuse, I am placing my comments here for full review.

The History of Iyalawo/ Iyanifas needs to be included. Wikipedia pages are intended to give valid resourced information. They are not intended to be a page for the counter opinion of the topic to be the predominant information and stand as factual. Iyanifas are accepted in the wider community.. just not Cuban Lucumi. That is biased information based on the views of one religion and not the entire Continent or diaspora. Cuba / Lucumi does not rule over all of Ifa or Traditional Ifa. They are not even the dominant practitioners worldwide. Ifa is practiced in Nigeria among the Igbo, Yoruba, Edo, in Benin, Togo, Ghana, and Senegal. Not to mention South America, Trinidad, Europe, and the United States and there are Iyanifas on all of those continents, countries, and Ethnic groups. Based on Traditional Ifa, Cuban Babalawos are not valid or recognized. So if we place this controversy here, it should also be allowed on  Cuba is one small island and the Lucumi practitioners have clearly severed any association with Traditional Ifa as it is practiced else where due to their own declarations of separate history, protocol, priesthood titles, initiations, etc. I completely respect that and they have a right to do such. To that end, if Lucumi religion does not allow for Iyanifas, I have no problem with them having their own page and promoting the views of their religion or posting it on the Santaria Wiki page. However, It is completely out of line to believe they also have the right to comment on other religions such as traditional Ifa based on their world view. It is biased to allow another religious groups to sabotage or exclude the factual information documented by valid sources according to Wikipedia guidelines because they don't agree or it is not in their religion. If the information is intended to be unbiased, it either needs to exclude the controversy altogether and include the unbiased history. The history is based on Traditional Ifa, its Odu verse, and its writers, not Cuba or Lucumi interpretations. Or, if the controversy is positioned, then to limit its discussion to less than 2o% of the page and to allow for the counter discussion that refutes those statements. The article clearly indicates that undue weight is placed on the controversy and needs to be remedied.

History of Iyalawo / Iyanifa in Ifa
Women have initiated into Ifa since before written history. The first known Iyanifa noted in history is Agbaye Arabinrin Oluwa, who lived about 200 AD in West Africa, Nigeria. The first woman noted to be initiated in the Ifa Literary Corpus was Orunmila's ( the prophet of Ifa)initiating his daughter in the Ifa Verse Eji Ogbe. . The verse is noted as follows: "The secret one of Jegbe' house Is Agbagiwo the chief priest of divination In the heavenly abode" Ifa said look at Orunmila on the day he was coming from Heaven to Earth. They told him he would marry a woman. They said the woman would deliver children. Two in a day. Just like Ifa predicted, Orunmila had a wife and she became pregnant. She delivered twins. One was male while the other one was female. From a tender age they both watched their father in the act of divination. Just as the male could divine, so could the female. When human beings got to the earth, They said, "You, Awonlaseri." Why doesnt your child practice Ifa? He said, because she is female. They said that is not taboo. So long as Orunmila' first born child who is female initiated into Ifa and offered ebo, from then on Women have initiated in Ifa

The first woman in the west initiated into Ifa is noted in the Nigerian Newspaper, The Guardian where it reported that Dr. D'Haifa Odufora Ifatogun was initiated in 1985 by the chief priest of Osogbo, Ifayemi Elebuibon. Her initation caused a controversy because until then, only men had initated to Ifa in the West. The tradition was maintained in Cuba through the slave trade by a few Babalawos and when migrating to the United States, the assumption that women could not initiate continued. It was only when contact was made with the original tradition in Africa that it became known that women could initiate into Ifa as well. The position of Iyalawo is now found in both West Africa and in the Americas. Iyalawo (talk) 22:59, 23 March 2015 (UTC)Iyalawo


 * Unfortunately, there are a number of serious issues with the history as given above. Your source for the Iyaonifa was taken from a book using a blog post as its source and has apparently not been documented anywhere else. The same sentence in the blog post also lists Fermina Gomez, Latuan and Monserate as Iyanifas which is easily verifiably incorrect, making the source suspect to put it mildly. They wielded a great amount of power, but were santeras not Iyanifás. Please try to find a verifiable source for this information. n fact, if you could find a solid, verifiable source for that information, it would not only revolutionize Ifa in Africa and the New World, it would generate intense excitement among ethnologists as well.


 * The reference to the ese Ifá for Baba Ejiogbe regarding Orunmila initiating his daughter is also suspect as it suddenly appeared recently after almost thirty years of controversy in Yorubaland as well as in Cuba. The fact is, in the literally thousands of ese Ifa in Africa, there is not one single mention of an Iyanifá or an Iyalawo (a term that seems to be only a couple of years old).


 * The first documented initiation of a woman as an Ifá priest was performed on Patrice D'Haifa in New York City on January 22, 1985 by the Nigerian babalawo Ifayemi Elebuibon. Publicly Elebuibon announced in a Nigerian circular that he had initiated Ms. D'Haifa into the Ifá cult and had given her "ikin Ifá". Although Cuban babalawos were the first to condemn the initiation, Nigerian babalawos were scandalized by these events as well and publicly chastised Elebuibon.


 * Shortly thereafter, Elebuibon claimed he did not actually initiate Patri D'Haifa as a divining priestess but gave her a lesser ceremony. Since then he has reversed his position again, stating women could indeed by initiated as full Ifá priests. Again, if you can provide solid, verifiable sources that say otherwise, it would go a long way towards making your case.


 * The controversy regarding the role of the Iyanifá or Iyalawo revolves around Igba Iwa Odu, the feminine manifestion of the Supreme Being whose presence the vast majority of Ifá priests deem absolutely essential to the initiation of full Ifá priests. Opponents of the practice of the initiation of the iyanifa/iyalawo cite the ese Ifá (Ifá verses used as precedents within the religion) Ofún Meji, Irete-Osa, Irete-Ofun and Otutupon-Rete which state that women cannot view, touch or be in the direct presence of Odu. This is based on the ese Ifá Irete Ogbe where Odu herself demands that no woman can be in her presence. Proponents of the Iyanifá initiation counter either that it is not actually necessary for Odu to be present or that woman already Odu by virtue of having a womb which they claim is a representation of Odu. Wande Abimbola, the Inspector General for Yoruba Ifá, claims that women need only be in the proximity of Odu to be initiated.


 * The babalawos who had come to Cuba as slaves, Adechina, Atanda, Ade Bi, Iñó Akonkon and Ifá Omí among others, couldn't initiate new babalawos without Odu. So that Ifá would not die with the slaves, they plotted on how one ofthem could make the trip back to Africa to bring Odu to the island. The task fell to Adechina, the babalawo who first brought Ifá to Cuba, literally inside himself as he had swallowed his ikin nuts when on the verge of capture. Using the code name Odu Adecina risked his life second time to return to Africa to receive Odu and returned to Cuba.


 * Therefore, for Cuban Lucumí babalawos to recognize someone as an a full Ifá priest without Odu present is not only an insult to the traditions the priests risked life and limb to preserve faithfully, it is also an insult to the memory of Adechina who risked his life a second time to bring Odu back to Cuba so babalawos could be initiated on the island. For Cuban babalawos, it is saying the life of old slaves like Adechina had no value, which only increases the outrage. They would rather have people think of them as sexist than to betray their traditions or their ancestors. Cuban babalawos also refuse to recognize men who have been initiated without Odu present such as elegan initiates for precisely the same reason, but this has not created the same kind of controversy.


 * So far, all the verifiable evidence goes against your claims. William Bascom, universally recognized as the foremost academic authority on Ifa up until the time of his death, stated that "only men can become babalawo" and that he never encountered a single female Ifa priest acting as a diviner in the cities of Ifé, Meko, Oyó, Ileṣa, Ilaro, Ilara, Abẹokuta, Ibadan, Iṣeyin, Oke-Iho, Irawọ, Ogbomọṣọ, Oṣogbo, Ṣagamu, Ijebú Ode, Ọndọ and a half dozen towns in Ekiti he visited during his extensive field studies in 1937-38, 1950–51, in 1960 and 1965, nor did any of his informants mention such a thing (Bascom 1969, x, 81)


 * In 1899, James Johnson also writes that all Ifá priests are men, but that women receive Eko Ifa, a single ikin nut with which she can worship Ifá.


 * In 1992, the king of Oyotunji African Village, Adefunmi, was forced to travel to Dahomey to initiate women as Ifa priests because the babalawos in the spiritual capital of Ifé still refused to initiate women at the time. This was in spite of the fact that king Adefunmi had received his title as Obá from the Ooni in Ifé. It is believed Ife changed their position on Iyanifás around 2003, but that is not certain. The Araba (a title bestowing the highest authority in Yoruba Ifá) of Ile Ife, in fact gave the first documented Iyanifa initiate Patri D'aifa the title of Yeye Araba, although the Araba later stripped her of the title when she announced she had received Iba Iwa Odu at the hands of Olu-Isese, and Chief Makonranwale Adisa Aworeni. The confusion became greater when it was revealed that Ms D'Haifa may have received Odu from the Araba himself as claimed by Ms. D'Haifa herself.


 * It is interesting that the majority of Iyanifás are initiated in the town of Ode Remo even though the Araba (a title bestowing the highest authority in Yoruba Ifá) of Ode Remo has publicly denounced the practice calling it a "profanation" and a "fraud." In turn, the babalawos and Iyanifás who support the initiation of Iyanifás in Ode Remo, claim the present Araba (and presumably the entire Ifá high council in Ode Remo)is sexist.
 * Your claim that it is only the Cuban Lucumí babalawos don't recognize Iyanifas as again this can be quickly verifiable as false.


 * I am surprised to see your claim that Cuban babalawos are not recognized as there have been numerous Ifá conferences where African and Lucumí babalawos have met to exchange information and to lend mutual support. In fact, one of the largest of these was the World Ifa Congress held in Havana, Cuba.


 * It is also interesting to note that almost all of the Iyanifas (or Iyalawos) are in the United States and that they are exceptionally rare to find in Yorubaland itself to this day. I of course could be wrong, so if you could name let's say twenty Yoruba Iyanifas I will gladly revise that.


 * It will be truly fascinating for ethnologists as well as for those who practice the religion in all of its forms to see how all this will play out in the end. While those who accept this apparent recent innovation are still well in the minority in Africa (and almost unheard of in Cuba), that is not to say the idea will not eventually gain generalized acceptance as the numbers are slowly but surely growing. Only time will tell. Lozen8 (talk) 16:48, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.46.222.195 (talk) 05:12, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
 * @Lozen8 Could you please edit all of this into the article? see my recent reply to the original post. I agree with you wholeheartedly. 67.8.178.25 (talk) 17:02, 9 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The "historical accounts" section isn't historical at all. It is mythological. citing Odu Ifa is citing mythology, not history. this would be like saying Jesus historically rose from the dead and citing the Bible.
 * saying a woman was initiated in 200AD is also not historic, but rather prehistoric.
 * This section needs serious revision in order to meet Wikipedia standards. 67.8.178.25 (talk) 17:01, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

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