Talk:Izydor Borowski

Name
The name of this person is pretty established in Polish sources as Izydor Borowski (Here is a recent article on him from Polish popular history magazine:, and here is an article a semi-academic journal). English sources sometimes use his Polish name, sometimes anglicize his surname to Borowsky and/or his first name to Isidore. It is best practice to use the original spelling, ignoring errors/mispelling/localizations from translations.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:10, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
 * , Thanks for having taken the courtesy! ;) Oh and thanks as well for linking those sources. They seem to be quite elaborate about the man. Unfortunately however, I don't speak Polish (well, apart from some words/sentences, heh). - LouisAragon (talk) 01:12, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I do. It seems that the Polish sources discuss his earlier life in much more detail (and I assume you based the article on right?)]. There are some inconsistencies between the Polish sources I cited and those in the article, I'll expand and point them out. PS. I am finished. Major discrepancies seem to relate to his early life (Polish sources do not concur he ever went to England/Africa/India), and his sons. Could you provide more info/quotations on this, if you have access to any other sources? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  03:35, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
 * --Yeah I mostly based it on that article. With regard to English sources, as far as I can see, its the only source that elaborates alot about him.
 * --Encyclopedia Iranica is generally considered to be one of the best sources out there regarding Iranian studies, as well as anything related to it in general. Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any other (English) sources that elaborate much about Borowski, or better said, anything close to the amount that Iranica tells about him. Regarding the inconsistencies, perhaps I know the answer; it seems Janusz Fedirko is a geographer, affliated to the Instytut Geografii i Gospodarki Przestrzennej, Uniwersytet Jagielloński, 30-387 Kraków, ul. Gronostajowa 7? If that's indeed the case, then the source is not WP:RS, and the additions related to it should be removed, unfortunately. We're better off with less info which we're "sure" about and which is covered by RS sources, rather than alot more text of which half is probably not backed up by RS sources. Would you agree? - LouisAragon (talk) 05:30, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, with all due to EI, it has been my experience that when it comes to obscure historical figures, Foo-nation sources are usually better. It does seem that EI article is from 2002, and I trust Bo Utas is a respectable scholar, but I would think he does not read Polish, and based his article, as stated in the sources (a nod to EI for citing them) on old (1948?) Iranian/Turkish source and a Russian ? one, as well as his old work from the 1980s. With all due respect, I have seen plenty of errors in those type of sources, which often rely on second-hand, 19th century sources - and it doesn't help that he states Borowski left in 1793, and then that this happened on or around 1795. Janusz Fedirko (who doesn't have a wiki page) seems to me as reliable - he is also described as a researcher of Afganistan, and he seems to have published a number of articles on historical biographies . Yes, he is a geologist - but Utas is a linguist... history is an interdisciplinary field, and we should not assume only historians can publish articles about history (I am a sociologist, and I have published one article about 18th-century history, as well...). So as far as sources go, I'd consider both scholars to be equally experts, but only one of them clearly speaks Polish and has access to Polish sources. Now, regarding publication venue, we could quibble whether an English tetriary source (IE) is better or worse than a second-tier academic Polish journal (AM), but at the very least, the Polish article seems much better referenced (55 footnotes) and longer, and this suggests that Fedirko did a much more throughout job researching the subject than Utas. Finally, leaving those two sources aside, google book search for Izydor+Borowski reveals mostly Polish publications (perhaps a different search phrase would bring more Turkish/Persian ones, but I don't speak that language). This suggests that Polish source material on Botowski is larger than in any other language, but in either case, it is significant. Reading the snippets, I can quickly verify a number of facts: that Borowski was involved in Latin American struggles (Drohojowski 1968, Paradowska 1977, Kula 1983, Sońta-Jaroszewicz 2006), that he was buried in Carmelitan Church in Isfahan, Iran (many authors 1988), that he joined the Brother pirates in the Carribean (Sulawski 1973). There are also references to some other academic articles about him in Polish. This Spanish (?) source seems to have a biographical chapter on him:  To muddy the waters a bit more, I also found a bit on him in an English source: . The source again contradicts some other accounts: "was born in Warsaw in 1803 and as a child was taken by his parents to New York"... " joined Bolivar's forces in 1821" (but Polish sources suggest he joined him a decade prior), "In 1829 Borowski made his way to Egypt" (this fits, I am just leaving it here as the first source we have for him arriving in Egypt). The 1803 DOB led me to find a reference to an old (1951 or older) lecture "dr M. Wajsblum: „Generał Izydor Borowski (1803 — 1838) i oddziały polskie w Persj" and quite a few others, including more modern Polish sources, but also references to his son Antoni Borowski (1803-1858), general . Then there is  which gives Izydor's date of death as 1826 (can't access right now, SciHub is down :. Oh, and / talk of  " general Antoni RADZIWILL de BOROWSKI, died in Tehran, January 21st 1898, buried at French Catholic Cemetery, Dulab, Tehran". Just in case we needed more date errors. Unfortunately, I don't have time to research it more, but frankly, I think further research would require digging through undigitized sources. To what degrees the errors / inconsistencies are due to typos (common in old sources), and to what, to people confusing two or  more separate individuals, it is hard to say for now. The best we can do is to cite reliable sources (like most of those listed here) and point out in text any inconsistencies. But in the end, my money is on Polish sources being right, since they don't have to deal with errors introduced through translation (Fedirko cites a lot of diaries and such by people who met the subject). Translations often introduce errors, lead to mispelling of subject's name, then conflate one person with someone else whose name sounded similar....).  --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  06:54, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, with all due to EI, it has been my experience that when it comes to obscure historical figures, Foo-nation sources are usually better. It does seem that EI article is from 2002, and I trust Bo Utas is a respectable scholar, but I would think he does not read Polish, and based his article, as stated in the sources (a nod to EI for citing them) on old (1948?) Iranian/Turkish source and a Russian ? one, as well as his old work from the 1980s. With all due respect, I have seen plenty of errors in those type of sources, which often rely on second-hand, 19th century sources - and it doesn't help that he states Borowski left in 1793, and then that this happened on or around 1795. Janusz Fedirko (who doesn't have a wiki page) seems to me as reliable - he is also described as a researcher of Afganistan, and he seems to have published a number of articles on historical biographies . Yes, he is a geologist - but Utas is a linguist... history is an interdisciplinary field, and we should not assume only historians can publish articles about history (I am a sociologist, and I have published one article about 18th-century history, as well...). So as far as sources go, I'd consider both scholars to be equally experts, but only one of them clearly speaks Polish and has access to Polish sources. Now, regarding publication venue, we could quibble whether an English tetriary source (IE) is better or worse than a second-tier academic Polish journal (AM), but at the very least, the Polish article seems much better referenced (55 footnotes) and longer, and this suggests that Fedirko did a much more throughout job researching the subject than Utas. Finally, leaving those two sources aside, google book search for Izydor+Borowski reveals mostly Polish publications (perhaps a different search phrase would bring more Turkish/Persian ones, but I don't speak that language). This suggests that Polish source material on Botowski is larger than in any other language, but in either case, it is significant. Reading the snippets, I can quickly verify a number of facts: that Borowski was involved in Latin American struggles (Drohojowski 1968, Paradowska 1977, Kula 1983, Sońta-Jaroszewicz 2006), that he was buried in Carmelitan Church in Isfahan, Iran (many authors 1988), that he joined the Brother pirates in the Carribean (Sulawski 1973). There are also references to some other academic articles about him in Polish. This Spanish (?) source seems to have a biographical chapter on him:  To muddy the waters a bit more, I also found a bit on him in an English source: . The source again contradicts some other accounts: "was born in Warsaw in 1803 and as a child was taken by his parents to New York"... " joined Bolivar's forces in 1821" (but Polish sources suggest he joined him a decade prior), "In 1829 Borowski made his way to Egypt" (this fits, I am just leaving it here as the first source we have for him arriving in Egypt). The 1803 DOB led me to find a reference to an old (1951 or older) lecture "dr M. Wajsblum: „Generał Izydor Borowski (1803 — 1838) i oddziały polskie w Persj" and quite a few others, including more modern Polish sources, but also references to his son Antoni Borowski (1803-1858), general . Then there is  which gives Izydor's date of death as 1826 (can't access right now, SciHub is down :. Oh, and / talk of  " general Antoni RADZIWILL de BOROWSKI, died in Tehran, January 21st 1898, buried at French Catholic Cemetery, Dulab, Tehran". Just in case we needed more date errors. Unfortunately, I don't have time to research it more, but frankly, I think further research would require digging through undigitized sources. To what degrees the errors / inconsistencies are due to typos (common in old sources), and to what, to people confusing two or  more separate individuals, it is hard to say for now. The best we can do is to cite reliable sources (like most of those listed here) and point out in text any inconsistencies. But in the end, my money is on Polish sources being right, since they don't have to deal with errors introduced through translation (Fedirko cites a lot of diaries and such by people who met the subject). Translations often introduce errors, lead to mispelling of subject's name, then conflate one person with someone else whose name sounded similar....).  --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  06:54, 16 March 2017 (UTC)


 * , wow, don't know how I missed all of this. Seems the "ping" feature didn't work once again. Really weird. Though quite alot of time has passed, I just wanted to say a few words. I just thoroughly read what you wrote above, and I agree with you about the sources. Fair arguments for sure. Thanks once again for the effort you have put into this article so far. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:46, 5 June 2017 (UTC)