Talk:Józef Bem

He was a Muslim, so why was his body cremated?
Islam strictly forbids the cremation of a Muslim corpse. The only way to go is a proper burial, six feet under.

I hope somebody can verify the relevant text.


 * He pretended to become a muslim, so the ottoms would accept his service. He only went to Turkey to be able to continue fighting against the tsarist regime. He hoped any weakening of Russian Empire would bring hope of liberation for his polish motherland. He would probably have taken zoro-astrianism if the iranian shah would give him 250.000 people and 400 cannons.


 * Otherise, he was not cremated, he has a large sarchophagus in Tarnow, Poland. See picture here:

http://www.tarnow.pl/historia/magia/bem.jpg


 * The cremation idea is probably because of material being mis-translated when ported from hungarian language sources (hamvait <--> ashes).


 * He would probably have taken zoro-astrianism if the iranian shah would give him 250.000 people and 400 cannons.

this excerpt, taken from above, is rather ignorant, and thus serves to nullify the reliability of the user's entire statement about Jozef Bem "pretending" to be Muslim. The Persians have been Muslims since the 640s.

Criminal of war
In Transsylvania, where Bem fought during much of the Hungaria 1848 Revolution, he is remembered as a savage criminal of war, because he ordered extensive massacres of the local native population. The Transsylvanian's aim during the Revolution was to unite Transsylvania with the rest of the Romanian lands and Bem was sent there by the Hungarian Revolutionary Government in order to supress this movement. Therefore he initiated the massacres of 40.000 local civilian citizens as a retaliation for the harrasement of the Bem's soldiers by local guerilla fighters. He never had the popular support of the local population (except the Hungarian local groups). During several local battles with organised army cores of Transsylvanians (the famous mountain highlanders legions, under the leadership of Avram Iancu) he was constantly defeated and his armies repelled. The main reason of his final defeat are therefore his odious massacres he ordered against civilian locals and his incapacity to deal with the smaller Transsylvanian Highlanders army cores. It is worthy to remember the odious and criminal nature of Joseph Bem's character, who was indeed an antecessor of sinister figures as Himmler and Goebbels.

Er, any sources to support this extreme point of view? I think comparing someone to Himmler is a bit unfair. Bem was a good solider and, sorry to say, because Avram Iancu seems to be Romanian national hero, he was defeated by Austrians and Russians. 83.30.233.163 10:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC) rorio

In the case of Bem, the comparison with mass criminals as Himmler is absolutely normal. He ordered massacres, he defended a so-called "Hungarian revolution" and when he was defeated in war, he had absolutely no problem to renounce to his religion and became a Muslim. In Transsylvania, Bem is recalled even today, as a cruel and coward murderer of thousands of women and childrens. Of course, we can find even today Hungarian extremists who are considering this war criminal as a "hero", but remember that we can find also people who are considering Hitler and Himmler as "heroes". As we can see, this wikipedia article is obviousely presenting only the POV of the Bem's admirers (see also the bibliografic ressources of the article) and therefore the value of the article is totally undermined. Maybe one day, wikipedia will change and will rennounce to that kind of pro-criminal atitudes. I hope that this day will come soon..


 * I think there is no neccesity to answer such a nationalistic POV. --Koppany (talk) 13:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Just get some informations about Avram Iancu's massacres for instance in Torda (I'm sure you're Rumanian, so for your sake: Turda). Not to be mentioned that his defeat was caused by the Tsarist soldiers. So I think we all appreciate his greatness and fame except you... 91.120.73.156 (talk) 13:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, Bem's "greatness" in Transsylvania is his horrible legacy of a baby-killer and millions of victims and relatives cursed his damned name. Maybe he had some heroic period, during his early life in Poland, but the massacres of the civilian population in Transsylvania are well documented and undeniable. After 1849, no Christian country accepted him as a refugee. Even in Hungary and Poland, many educated people are aware of the dark side of his personality and are not supporting anymore his personality cult, promoted during the late 19 th century by the Hungarian ultra-nationalists. Get real and accept the evidence. Josef Bem, like Hitler and Stalin, was a great fighter for his country and for his adoptive country (hungary) but like Hitler and Stalin, he was also a savage criminal. The adulation of the monsters is not a healthy behaviour for neither nation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.105.123.228 (talk) 02:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you actually believe in the crap you are saying, or are you just an agent provocateur? Looking at the edits you made, all are in the "everyone who is not Romanian is evil" category. --131.188.3.20 (talk) 16:37, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I think we can stop this stupid dispute. Although Bem fought for the hungarian revolution, romanians do not consider Bem a criminal. He actually asked Kossuth to stop the crimes against romanians. Also Avram Iancu agreed not to help the russians when fighting against Bem — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.232.164.110 (talk) 17:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

B-class review
This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 18:42, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Avoid political clichés in favour of neutral language.
I honestly believe that Wikipedia should avoid political clichés and should be as politically neutral as possible. In this article, it would be advisable to change "European patriotic movements" to "European insurgent movements". In the cause of the wars in which Bem participated, the population of the rebellious provinces was largely split, and not everyone there would agree to call those rebellions "patriotic". Hence the need for a less politically charged term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.9.101.9 (talk) 23:16, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Józef Bem's supposed descendants
Under the heading "In popular culture" the text mentions Józef Bem's descendants. However, as far as we know, he did not have any. A recently-published genealogical study of his immediate family http://www.genealodzy-kielce.pl/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Rodzina-gen-J-Bema.pdf, now cited on the Polish-language Wikipedia page https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Bem, demonstrates that - according to available documentation - none of the four Bem brothers left any legitimate offspring who survived into adulthood. Any claims to the contrary are likely to be family myths or based on the forged birth certificate of Józef's father, Andrzej, created by Włodzimierz Bem de Cosban https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82odzimierz_Bem_de_Cosban, publicly exposed in 1934 by Zygmunt Lasocki. 86.10.42.72 (talk) 15:52, 10 September 2023 (UTC)