Talk:J-pop/Archive 1

First message
I recreated this because J-POP is not the only music in Japan. The Music of Japan redirect is not appropriate because this is a unique genre of music, not the only Japanese genre. Besides, it was broken anyway. -- Emperorbma 01:00, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

J-Pop or Japanese pop
I moved Japanese rock to J-Rock to mirror this article, but I've been thinking about it, and now I believe that Japanese pop and Japanese rock look neater than J-Pop and J-Rock, and it seems a wikipedia policy to not use abreviations for main article names. What do you guys think, should we move both articles back to their full names? xDCDx 16:03, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I'd rather have J-Pop than Japanese pop as the main article. That's how Japanese refer to the genre anyway.  How about making Japanese pop redirect to J-Pop?  Revth 09:39, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm with xDCDx on this one. The wikipedia policy is to use the full article names and then have the abbreviations redirect, regardless of common usage. The first sentence of the article could then mention that J-Pop is the commonly used term. --Junesix 18:33, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually, that is exactly the opposite of Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia policy is common usage. See Naming conventions (common names). &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 00:31, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)


 * No, im with Revth, its called J-Pop by the Japanese, and is known commonly like that, so i think the article should be called that as well. Thats what is more likely to be searched for i reckon, so i think it should stay. - 81.155.168.239 19:09, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Are you aware of any cites to this effect? I've only seen 'Jpop' or 'JPOP' used at the CD stores in Japan, but never 'J-pop'.  This is actually the first time I've ever seen 'J-pop' and I'd love some more background on this. --J Bush 19:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

List of popular J-Pop artists
Do the list of popular J-Pop artists here and the List of popular J-Pop artists linked on "see also" not blatantly duplicate each other? 81.155.168.239 19:09, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I really miss a short list of ther most popular J-pop artists on this page.

Definition
There's some ambiguity concerning the definition of jpop. In the first paragraph, it's distiguished from folk music and under Definition, from enka. They are two completely different things. I think this needs some clearing up. I will give it a shot if I have time. --Himasaram 12:30, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

[Comment by nightfire117]: J-Pop and "Japanese Pop" are terms all too often generalized to include all Japanese music. This is not so. Japanese pop, rock, hip-hop, and even uncommon genres (at least for Japan) such as ska are produced by Japanese artists as well. I agree that there is certain confusion around the accurate definition of J-Pop, which should refer to exactly what it means: "Japanese pop." Nightfire117 00:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

J-pop does not refer to the music genre "pop music" it refers to popular artists from Japan. There is J-pop, and J-indies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.157.156 (talk) 07:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with nightfire117 and addressed the problem as well as did a general clean-up of some unnecessary things. Enshi 03:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Category renaming
I've nominated Category:J-Pop for renaming to Category:J-pop, and ditto Category:J-Pop (releases), to follow the capitalisation of this page. SeventyThree(Talk) 18:41, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * All done. SeventyThree(Talk) 00:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

"Z-Pop"
It should be noted that "Z-Pop" (Z is for Zipangu), used to mean J-Pop, is only used by ZIP-FM radio station. Very insignificant. Also, J-Pop is usually spelled as such, but Jpop is also popular. Virtually noone writes it as J-pop, but it should be noted that variations exist. I'm currently behind a bizarre ISP firewall that prevents me from editing the main article.--Tokek 02:38, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

use of all-caps
I'm no J-pop expert, so please forgive my ignorance. But after spending a lot of time in category:Songs by artist, I'm wondering what so many of these songs and albums and band names are in all caps. Is there anything that really separates "ALL FOR YOU" from "All for You?" It's possible that in Japan, it doesn't seem like shouting, but here in the US, it does. There are a lot of articles that would be renamed if we went through and de-capped most of these, so I wanted to see if people were attached to this scheme. (Some interesting comments at the Orange Range talk page.)--Mike Selinker 12:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hello there. I was one of those who used to put titles in all caps. Most japanese titles are given all in caps not only in the CD itself, but also in press releases. Thus, Wikipedians working with J-pop articles tend to copy titles as faithful as possible. However, I have been lately converted (wikilink may break after archiving) and now follow the guidelines stated by the naming conventions. I believe it may take some time for everyone to understand, but I now agree that is better to follow naming conventions. Hopefully everyone will agree. -- ReyBrujo 15:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That's useful info. I specifically find interesting the directive "Do not replicate stylized typography in logos and album art." It would seem to me that the all-caps affectation fits that description. Rey, did you go back and move the articles you started in all-caps, or does that still have to be done?--Mike Selinker 17:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Jogers did move all (maybe missing one or two, but surely almost all) the ones I have started to their proper capitalization. I haven't had the time to check all the J-pop articles, though. I may add that to my todo list. -- ReyBrujo 21:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * But specific capitalization of letters in song titles is not stylized typography, I think... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.31.156.85 (talk) 09:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

The reason why some words are in CAPS is because of the type of Japanese characters used to write the word. Under romaji, words spelled using hiragana and kanji are written in lowercase. Words written in katakana are either loanwords or words that do not have a kanji character assigned to it. In the romaji process, katakana are converted CAPS, to indicate that the romaji-written word was originally written in katakana. Before software like Microsoft IME was introduced, enabling katakana in a wordprocessor was via the CAPS LOCK. The same thing goes for software-based Japanese translators; services like BabelFish and @nifty use CAPS to distinguish between hiragana and katakana. When you enter a katakana-written word into the translator, it'll output the word in CAPS. Hope this enlightens some people. Groink 22:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

This page needs an overhaul
I'm sorry people, but this page has a wealth of information, but it's just atrocious to look at. It doesn't flow and is very difficult to make references here.

Also, there're very few places I can find that can verify the information provided here.

The only thing I can find is the earl influences from Jazz, but not much beyond that, and I also fail to see the corrollation between the Jazz influences and the way the music has evolved from that. There's a massive gap in the hostorical information provided here, especially considering the popularity of the topic.

Another thing is the comparison of Buffy The Vampire Slayer's Soundtrack compared to a Japanese Anime's soundtrack. For a start, where is the imporance from an encyclopaedic point of view? And where's the comparison? For one, Anime is cartoons and so is inclined to be very musically based. Secondly, the soundtracks for Anime tend to have every song that has ever appeared in an episode. One Buffy episode that comes to mind is the Tara/Willow break up episode where Michelle Branch sings "Goodbye (To You)" at the end of the episode. The entire song was contained in the episode, however was not included on the soundtrack. The songs contained on the soundtrack say "Selections from the soundtrack" not "all of the songs". It's a maojr difference to be found. Especially when you consider than at the Bronze they'd attend every week in early episodes, there was a different band who'd play a different (usually original) song.

This leads me to believe a great deal of bias hos gone into the writing of the article as a whole.

I suggest getting the article and stripping it to the barebones and only elaborating on the information that warrants elaboration.

Another thing: J-Pop should be spelt as such. Capital P and with a hyphen. All references within the article should be consistent too.

Lincalinca 05:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Do not just paste the information from J-pop into J-Pop. The whole article history is in J-pop, if we just paste the information, we won't have it to see how the article was developed. If you want to change J-pop into J-Pop, you need to move the page to J-Pop. -- ReyBrujo 05:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't cut and paste. There's Requested moves to request moves that can't be done due to an existing article at the target move.  This way the edit history can be preserved. Kevin_b_er 06:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you'll find it moves the talk page because of how I processed the move. Lincalinca 06:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The issue is not the Talk page, the issue is the article history. Please see Merging and moving pages for the proper procedure.  Do not copy and paste content over. -- Gogo Dodo 07:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyway, J-pop shouldn't be spelled with a capital P in any case. We usually spell "pop", as we do "bubblegum pop", "traditional pop", "K-pop", "Mandarin pop", "Nederpop" etc. etc. There is a strong consensus on the MoS for regularizing Japan originated capitals, so even if it's spelt "J-Pop" in Japan, we probably don't care. Yours faithfully, Shinobu 15:06, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Japanese Family name - Given name
The distinction should be make between family names and given names. This is a problem on a lot of Japanese related articles. It makes no sense to have "Ayumi Hamasaki" and "Utada Hikaru" on the same page, because Hamasaki and Utada are family names. If someone knows which way to reconcile this, please change the article. -Oatmeal batman 13:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I got my question answered. It's "Given name->Family name."  See Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) for the long version. -Oatmeal batman 14:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

sifow
Can someone with more knowledge on the subject than I take a look at sifow and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Lalala+13j in general? There's been a phenomenal amount of edits in the last 8 hours related to this artist, by one user, but their major-label album appears to not be due until September (which could make this promotional spam), and everything else looks like indie/minor label stuff to me. I don't know the second thing about J-pop though, so I don't want to snap somebody's nose off just because I don't recognize their favorite artist... help? -- nae'blis 18:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Being artist
In the early 1990s, the music scene can be split up into different parts. With the 1990-1993 being dominated by the Being artists (ZARD, Wands, Deen), B'z and the Southern All Stars.

what is thise "Being artist"??? --83.130.140.228 14:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Being is a record label that produces the artists mentioned above. They are notorious for rarely making any TV appearances. mirageinred 16:48, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Images
These two images are like the shittiest I ever saw. The Ayumi one you barely see and everything is dark. Utada's picture the only thing you can see is her ass. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by FreshBulletTime (talk • contribs).
 * Glad we got your attention. Maybe now you will be able to take a picture of either of them to upload here with a free license? -- ReyBrujo 13:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Bias
As was mention briefly above, there seems to be a large bias towards J-pop in this article. are lines such as: "...the genre itself demanded a high level of technical proficiency and was difficult to play. As a result many amateur Japanese musicians turned to country music, which was far easier to learn and perform. This in turn led to a proliferation of country-based music." really necessary? -TyRo Sheep STyLz~ 14:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

"New Music"
The article identifies Yoshida Takuro and Inoue Yosui as "New Music" artists. At the time, however, (mid-70s) both of these artists were known as フォーク artists. I first heard the term "New Music" in connection with Yumin's early work. While Yosui and Takuro were possibly harbingers of New Music in hindsight (i.e., different from the late 60s-early seventies "folk") is it really accurate to call them "New Music" musicians. In fact, the term "New Music" seems to have expanded in Japan from a fairly narrow band to cover just about any kind of pop or rock that is outside TV-oriented geinokai (just my impression). In record shops, at least, it's become a fairly meaningless label.

Bathrobe (talk) 15:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

What is it? A Style? Or just pop from Japan?
J-pop is popular music from Japan, this is sure. But is that it? Does it have any other defining or common styles, themes or characteristics that set it apart from other types of pop? This article just seems to list pop musicians in Japan but surely there is a J-Pop style. What is it? Since this article is generally uncited I allow myself to suggest: --Timtak (talk) 03:57, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Singer - Songwriter divide greater (prevalence of idols, more produced) (can be supported by Time Article on Sheena Ringo and Ayumi Hamasaki )
 * Greater emphasis on looks, and generaly look better (partly due singer songwriter divide. They don't have to be musically talented)
 * Use of English as well as Japanese, especially in the chorus and title of songs.
 * Greater vocal range (rather like R and B in the US, with large tone changes in the same phrase) partly perhaps due to the impact of Karaoke; J-pop is made to be sung, and made to show off the voice (nodo jiman-teki). Also traditional Japanese music has greater tonal swings.
 * Many singers do not even have good voices, despite the demands of the songs that they sing! (Thinking about it, a "difficult" song hides limitations in the singer, while an easy song, with a simple melody shows the singers voices qualities warts and all) Can be supported by Time Magazine Articles on Ayumi Hamasaki at least with reference to her .)
 * Fewer guitar riffs perhaps - again, made to be sung.
 * Stronger female presence (longest string of number one hits one and two are both women)
 * Beat may on average be faster, or doubled? [Jitterin Jin]'s 'double beat' is minor but perhaps, perhaps, due to a taiko drumming influence the beat in Japanese music seems to be more likely to be doubled or at least fast.

Some people believe that "J-pop" is a genre of music, as in "jazz", "bossa nova" and "rock" are genres (or styles). However proving tha point is extremely difficult. There is not a specific tecnhique or a rythym that sets "j-pop" apart from other types of pop. While "jazz", "bossa nova", "r&b" etc can be sang in any language and still be "jazz", "bossa nova", etc one can't sing a song in English and say it's j-pop. I think that this article's definition is correct: J-pop is (western) popular music made in Japan, and it's not only to separate Japanese musicians from foreign musicians, but also to separate the true Japanese music styles (like "Enka" or "Kayokyoku") from the western styles made in Japan; it's commonly used in that sense by the Japanese. J-pop includes general "pop" as well as "rock", "r&b", "hip-hop" "rap", "raggae", "dance" ,etc. "j-rock", "j-hip-hop" etc are not genres either, they are subnomenclatures, all included in the "J-pop" nomenclature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.168.242.100 (talk) 17:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Reason to keep (or not keep) long list of artist?
I think the long list (over 12KB) isn't needed on this page and should be deleted or trimmed down considerably. The list is preceded by a link to the list class article List of J-pop artists, which has the same information. Louis Waweru  Talk  05:47, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Absolutely agree to remove it from this article. Neier (talk) 10:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if it's necessary to estate that those artists listed there are some of the most popular in J-Pop. I think one can infer it just by reading the article. Also, this article should be a description of the music genres and of the most important artists of each period (most important can be for both popularity and influence). There are people who are obviously trying to promote some artists by putting facts that are great for the artists' history, but not so for the scene in general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.168.242.100 (talk) 14:31, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

YMO?
I would think they should be mentioned in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.198.165 (talk) 08:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

HMV List of biggest artists
I don't see why to use it as the ultimost reference source. As in any list, this ranking is arguable, there are obviously important names that are simply absent from the list while others less important made it, not to mention the position of many of this artists. We don't know what exactly were the criteria of this list, but at the time of its release, many people disagreed with it and felt the positions were switched. Also, HMV as commercial company might have its interest. So this list shouldn't be taken as something other than just another list.

Images for article
Maybe good images for the article? It would be fine to get a better image for Jazz musume tanjō. --Snek01 (talk) 16:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Copy editing required
I noticed that this article had a copy edit tag, and I read it over to try and help it out. I can't count the number of times it says "Japanese" or "singer". Do we really need all of that? Everyone knows that this is an article on Japanese music anyhow, so those will be two basics.

Anywho, I rewrote a few sentences. I do applaud whoever took the time to sit down and crank out to reformat all 121 references, but some sentences are so complex or poorly written, I'm unable to rewrite them due to lack of understanding. I think all we need is for some expert to come along and switch it all up to Wiki quality. Sadly, I can only read and write Chinese and English fluently, not Japanese. ★ Dasani ★ 23:59, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Another thing that might trip this up at FAC (if anyone wanted to take this article there) is the lack of printed sources. While Oricon may be all fine and good, it is always nice to have somebody from the academic world at least back up the web sources. Also, J-pop is very influential, even if only in other Asian countries: J-pop artists are popular all over Asia, and J-pop influences the music of practically every country in the Sinosphere. So I think the influence section could stand to be expanded a lot. I'll dig up what I can, but this is such an extensive topic that it would be better if everyone could pitch in. Ink Runner (talk) 19:51, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I've given the article a top-to-bottom copy edit, to the best of my ability given that I speak only English. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 03:32, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Major second?
'By adopting a major second (sol and la) which was used in the sounds of The Beatles' "I Want to Hold Your Hand" and The Rolling Stones' "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction", Japanese pop music became more occidental'

What on Earth is this supposed to mean? Almost any piece of Western music has major seconds in it, not just the cited examples. Does it mean that the music was no longer pentatonic? If so, it should say so. Paul Magnussen (talk) 18:34, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Totally agree. This section makes no sense at all. It cannot even mean that the music was no longer pentatonic, since several of the Japanese pentatonic scales do use the major second. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_musical_scales.Brumel (talk) 10:06, 1 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Correction. Part of the section makes sense if popular music before rock only used those Japanese scales that in practice exclude the major second. (The interval is theoretically present in all the scales listed in the Wikipedia article, but may be excluded in actual use.) IF that is the case, I suggest that someone who knows the subject re-writes this section to say something like, "Before the arrival of rock music Japanese popular music used the ........ musical scale(s), in which the use of the major second is excluded. With the popularity of the Group Sounds genre, which was inspired by Western rock, western scales were increasingly adopted, and the resulting major seconds gave the music a western sound." At least that makes sense, though whether it is true or not I don't know. The bit about the Beatles and Rolling Stones is still nonsense and should be discarded. Brumel (talk) 11:09, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Stylistic Origins
Is there really a need for so many genres in the stylistic origins? That part is for the origins of the genre as a whole, not particular bands. Can't it be reduced to the most essential ones? Munci (talk) 13:08, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you ACSE Munci (talk) 00:46, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Split
This page is now 87 KB; per the guidelines at WP:LENGTH, it's time to start thinking about splitting it up. Is there a good point at which this article could be divided? // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 03:32, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction - Johnny & Associates
This section seems to declare two bands as setting a record for the youngest age of 14.8 years. It doesn't seem like both of them can be right. Perhaps someone could look at the sources and find out if there's an omission in translation going on here? // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 03:32, 22 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey! Say! 7 established a record as not a group but a male group at that time. It's not a contradiction.--ACSE (talk) 08:20, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Redirects to J-pop
Hello, I'm writing because there is an issue that I feel needs serious addressing in reference to this article. I don't know if this problem was created intentionally by someone or not. But my experience with Wikipedia is that if an article doesn't exist you aren't just randomly redirected to another page, you are sent to a page informing you that your search doesn't exist. And if a redirect occurs that it would have been setup by someone to do so. Well the issue is that Japanese pop, Japanese pop music, and J-Pop (with a capital "P") all redirect to the article Japanese war crimes. Again, I'm not sure if this was done intentionally or not, but I just found it odd that they all redirected to the same page. That can't just be random. Those terms are just the ones I tried today when looking for J-pop. I finally found it through a Google search and noticed that it can only be accessed when spelled J-pop (with a small "p"). I'm not certain how many other variations of this article have been setup to redirect to Japanese war crimes, as these were the only three searches I tried before I realized something was wrong, got upset and found my way here through Google instead. I feel that fixing this issue will allow more people, that would have otherwise given up on finding this article instead of continuing to pursue it like myself, to easily find and enjoy it, and possibly even help contribute to it. If I knew how to investigate this I would. But I hope some of you might know how to right this wrong.

Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yoyofreak31 (talk • contribs) 22:30, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Terrible article
Americans, British, Mexicans, nobody really knows the real history, only the Japaneses. http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-POP


 * Anyway, all articles in wikipedia should be the same in each lenguages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.160.148.42 (talk) 17:31, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

j pop, Real definition
http://botibotiikoka-bruce.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2008-11-10 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.138.153.16 (talk) 12:52, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

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