Talk:J. D. Tippit

J.D./Jefferson Davis
I, like everyone else, have always thought that JD stood for Jefferson Davis, but I just learned via Dale Myers book that JD doesn't stand for anything at all. Myers quotes JD's brother Wayne Tippit as saying "It was just an initial name". (page 588) and, well, the guy's brother is a pretty authoritative source. Gamaliel 09:25, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I looked him up in the 1930 Census (Red River County, Texas) and he is listed there as "Jd" while his brother is listed as "Donald R.". Gamaliel 10:40, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * So this guy has no first name? Just the initials "J.D."?? Wolfdog 22:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not too uncommon in the Southern US for people to have names like that, so it would not surprise me. Rifter0x0000 (talk) 10:49, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you both missed Gamaliel's point. Myers refers to the brother as Wayne but the census lists him as Donald R. So if, and emphasizing the if, Myers got the name wrong, maybe he's wrong about the JD too. Or maybe somebody claiming to be JD's brother sold him a false story. Akld guy (talk) 07:16, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * None of the above. JD had multiple brothers: http://www.jdtippit.com/tree.htm. - Location (talk) 16:11, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

J.D. and J.R. are pretty common as stand-alone names in that time and place. Sometimes an initial only would be given to stand in for more than one possible name. Harry S. Truman's middle initial is one such example.2605:6000:7B44:4500:A0C0:1046:D232:B861 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:57, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Assassination
Like all aspects of the Kennedy assassination, the circumstances surrounding the shooting of Officer Tippit has been questioned by conspiracy believers. Many assassination books discuss the Tippit shooting in limited detail. The most comprehensive authoritative volume, and the only book dedicated exclusively to the Tippit shooting and its aftermath, is Dale K. Myers' With Malice: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Murder of Officer J.D. Tippit. Myers' book discusses the conspiracy theories surrounding Tippit's murder and documents the true facts. While other conspiracy-oriented books provide alternative viewpoints, none are as complete and well-documented as With Malice. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.60.110.76 (talk • contribs).

David Belin of the Warren and Rockefeller Commission is fond of saying, "Lee Harvey Oswald killed policeman Tippit. Since the case against Oswald for the Tippit slaying is so strong, it follows that Oswald also shot the President." The case against Oswald in the Tippit murder is as weak as the case against him in the JFK assassination. The most important evidence showing that Seymour and another one of the assassination team shot Tippit is the fact that six witnesses, ignored by the Warren Commission, saw two men shoot Tippit. One of them resembled Oswald. They ran away from the scene in opposite directions. Seymour ran toward the Texas Theater, throwing the planted shells up in the air so that witnesses would see and recover them. (This act would convince most people that Oswald did not shoot Tippit.) The other assassin ran in the opposite direction. There is some indication that Seymour entered the theater in a manner to draw attention and then left before the Oswald arrest. While the shells recovered were found to match Oswald's pistol, none of the bullets recovered from Tippit's body matched. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.1.5.244 (talk • contribs).

Page overhaul
Hi. I am responsible for the overhaul of this page. I have tried to lay out both the Warren Commission's version of Tippit's murder as well as the criticism of the Commission in a fair and accurate manner. I welcome you comments. Joegoodfriend 23:09, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I took out the statement of the Dallas DA because it may give his opinion undue weight, as he never had a chance to really develop a case and his opinion may have changed as the investigation continued. I also linked this article to the "theories" article and to LHO for clarity.  I also took out language like "substantial" in various parts because they usually violate NPOV.  Otherwise, I don't have much problem with what was added.  Although some other editors may want to challenge the books as reliable sources.  I won't get into that, I'm sure the publisher put these works through some sort of fact checking process before putting the information out. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 23:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Shot to the temple
It's stated by some investigators that Oswald went up and shot him in the temple (after shooting him three times), apparently no witness sees Oswald going close to Tippit and shooting him. Plus, Tippit's entrance wound does not bear any gunpowder burns. Detective Jim Leavelle himself has stated that "he wouldn't go up to him, he's trying to run away". In any case, Oswald fired ALL four shots from over the car. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.48.255 (talk) 00:49, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Markham testimony
I have removed the article's claim that:
 * Helen Markham however stated repeatedly in her testimony to the Commission that she could not identify anyone in the police lineup she was shown that included Oswald. Warren Commission Hearings Vol. III, p.310-1

From her testimony to the Warren Commission, vol. III, p. 311:
 * Mr. Ball: Did you recognize the man from his clothing or from his face?
 * Mrs. Markham: Mostly from his face.
 * Mr. Ball: Were you sure it was the same man you had seen before?
 * Mrs. Markham: I am sure.

and again, vol. III, p. 318:


 * Mr. Ball: Well, the man that you identified as the number 2 man in the lineup in the police station, you identified him as the man you had seen shoot Officer Tippit?
 * Mrs. Markham: Yes, I did.
 * Mr. Ball: Did you identify him because of his clothing that he had on at that time in the lineup.
 * Mrs. Markham: Just like I told you. I mostly looked at his face, his eyes, and his clothing, too.

— Walloon 23:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to object to the phrase "Contrary to twelve other witnesses who saw a single individual either shooting Tippit or fleeing the scene". Many of these witnesses merely saw Oswald running somewhere between the murder scene and the theater. Joegoodfriend 00:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The pages you cite also do not contain the quotes you cite. Where did you get them? Here's an actual quote:
 * Ball: Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?
 * Markham: No, sir.
 * Ball: You did not? Did you see anybody? I have asked you that question before-did you recognize anybody from their face?
 * Markham: From their face, no.

Joegoodfriend 00:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Domingo Benavides testimony
I have removed the article's claim that:
 * The Commission incorrectly concluded that Domingo Benavides called police from Tippit’s radio immediately after the killing. Benavides had testified that he did not approach the car "for a few minutes" after the shooting, (Warren Commission Hearings Vol. VI, p.448) and even then he was unable to use the radio.

From his testimony to the Warren Commission:
 * Mr. Benavides: I saw him as he was falling. The door was about half way open, and he was right in front of the door, and just about in front of the fender. I would say he was between the door and the front headlight, about middleway when he started to fall. . ..
 * Mr. Belin: Then what did you do?
 * Mr. Benavides: Then I don't know if I opened the car door back further than what it was or not, but anyway, I went in and pulled the radio and I mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot, and I didn't get an answer, so I said it again, and this guy asked me whereabouts all of a sudden, and I said, on 10th Street. I couldn't remember where it was at at the time. So I looked up and I seen this number and I said 410 East 10th Street.

— Walloon 00:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have added a modified version of Benavides and Bowley's statements. Joegoodfriend 01:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Poe testimony
I have removed the article's claim that:
 * There is also evidence to indicate that the cartridge shells recovered from the scene may not have been those subsequently entered into evidence. Two of the shells recovered at the scene were given to police officer J.M. Poe, who marked them with his initials. (Warren Commission Hearings Vol. VII, p.69) However, no initials were found on the shells later produced by the police.(Warren Commission Hearings Vol. XXIV, p.131-5.)

Officer Poe specifically testified he was not sure whether he initialed the cartridges or not. From his testimony to the Warren Commission, vol. VII, p. 69:
 * Mr. Ball: Now, I have here a package which has been marked "Q"--FBI lab. Q-74 to Q-77. Would you look those over and see if there is any identification on there by you to indicate that those were the hulls given to you by Benavides?
 * Mr. Poe: I want to say these two are mine, but I couldn't swear to it.
 * Mr. Ball: Did you make a mark?
 * Mr. Poe: I can't swear to it; no, sir.

— Walloon 01:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Modified version of the paragraph restored indicating that Poe merely believed he had marked the shells. Poe was adamant on all other occasions that he had marked them with his initials.Joegoodfriend 01:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The Man, Scoggins, and source credibility

 * 1. I use the term "the man" up to the point in the narration where Oswald is identified because that is precisely the convention used in the Warren Report.
 * 2. Scoggins did not see the shooting.
 * 3. Meagher, Summers and Hurt are researchers whose works have been published and reprinted for decades. Their works are well-regarded in the research community, and their verifiability is not any more in question than the dozens of websites cited as sources in all the JFK assassination related pages on wikipedia. Joegoodfriend 16:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't add the tags, but was aware that their might be an issue with them. I am not sure if we are asking to verify the credibility of the research, but the credibility of the claim.  Personally, I was aware of Summers and Hurt, but I've never heard of Meagher.  Ramsquire (throw me a line) 17:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Accessories After the Fact By Meagher is one of the best-regarded books on the subject from the 1960's. It deals almost entirely with comparisons the WC's conclusions with the evidence and testimony before it. As for Oswald's walking speed, Meagher simply calculated it by taking the times of his locations from the WR and measuring the distance between those locations.
 * Frankly, I consider marking these sources with the credibility tag to be a cheap shot, as there are dozens of web sites and dubious sources used as cites on the various JFK articles on wikipedia, and not one of them has a credibility tag.Joegoodfriend 17:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * With all the books and research I've seen and read on this subject, I guess one just slipped through the cracks. Although, I was aware of the issue some raised about the time it would take from Oswald's boarding house to Tippit's murder scene, I never knew that Meagher was the originator of the theory.  Well, that's why I come to Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ramsquire (talk • contribs) 18:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

Picture
We need a picture of the officer, So this arcticle could be better.Poke mudkip 21:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Mark Lane and Helen Markham
Mark Lane was notoriously manipulative in his telephone conversation with witness Helen Markham. He repeatedly tried to get her to say that Tippit's killer was "short, heavy, and with bushy hair." A transcript from Lane's own book. Mrs. Markham identified Tippit's killer as Oswald at the police lineup on Nov. 22, 1963, the day of the assassination, she identified Tippit's killer as Oswald in her telephone conversation with Mark Lane on March 2, 1964, and she identified Tippit's killer as Oswald in her Warren Commission testimony on March 26, 1964. — Walloon 01:03, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I would characterize Markham's statements in a different way than you would. She was prompted repeatedly to identify Oswald as she continued to make vague, inconsistent and nonsensical statments. However, honestly, I have to admit you're right about Lane. If you want to cut the Lane stuff out, I won't fight it. Thanks for opening this in talk before making changes. Joegoodfriend 01:13, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * the WRC lead investigator described markham as a "fruit cake" and a "nut job". and wrote a memo suggesting that folks will figure out she is the only witness of tippits murder and that testimony is "nicely buried for now" kinda suggesting she is not a great witness, as to the police lineups the WRC investigator states "she is all over the yard here". 204.101.140.23 (talk) 18:47, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the assessment of Mrs. Markham's reliability. If she were my witness, I'd be pulling my hair out. — Walloon 01:18, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Police lineups
"Oswald was also shown to witnesses in police lineups that otherwise consisted entirely of teenage boys." Here are the teenage boys from Oswald's police lineups at 4:35 and 6:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963, the first two of his four lineups. The other men in his third lineup, at 7:55 p.m. that day, were Richard Walter Borchgardt (born 30 May 1940), Ellis Carl Brazel (born 24 Nov 1941), and jail clerk Don Ables. The other men in Oswald's fourth and last lineup, at 2:55 p.m. on November 23, were John Thurman Horn (born 6 November 1945), David Knapp, 18, and Daniel Lujan (born 15 February 1937). — Walloon 05:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting, you have done a good job on this research. Perhaps the lineups were not as "unfair" as some authors have suggested. Joegoodfriend 03:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * the lineups were not good, the first had two detectives in suits both at 6 foot towering over oswald and a janitor in long sleeves. the second had two teens who have been photographed and filmed at the time who look much younger than oswald and neither of them are weaing t shirts. 204.101.140.23 (talk) 18:27, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Dallas Police dispatcher
"The original police transcript in the National Archives also lists the time of transmission as 1:10 PM. Reference: Armstrong, John, Harvey, Lee and Tippit: A New Look at the Tippit Shooting, Probe Magazine, Vol. 5, No.2." Not true. Verbal time stamps made by the Dallas Police dispatcher show that the first report of the Tippit shooting was transmitted over Channel 1 some time between 1:16 and 1:19 p.m. (Click on the speaker icon at the bottom right of each highlighted section to hear the recording.) Specifically, the transmission by T.F. Bowley from the site of Tippit's shooting begins 1 minute 41 seconds after the 1:16 time stamp. The original transcript also reports that the first report of the Tippit shooting was transmitted some time after the 1:16 time stamp. — Walloon 05:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I have found several references to the transcript with the 1:10 timestamp, but I haven't seen the actual copy. Suffice to say that if it exists, it contradicts the evidence above. I also think there is the possibility that police tampered with the transcripts. However, under the circumstances, I have no objection to the change. Joegoodfriend 15:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

When you click on the words "original transcript" above, you are seeing the "actual copy" in the National Archives. — Walloon 17:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * My reference does not of course refer to that copy, but to a different version of the same document whose existence, alas, I cannot document with a hard copy. PS-I think all your recent edits to the page have been fine.Joegoodfriend 19:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm a law student, with a journalism background, and I'm trying to put both to use when editing here, e.g., standards of proof, rules of evidence. — Walloon 04:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Seconds
"17 minutes and 45 minutes" seems to be a mistake for "17 minutes and 45 seconds". — 86.139.209.191 03:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Minimise
Murray Jackson seems to be trying to minimise the extent to which his friend was behaving provocatively with Tippit's own gun. All witnesses say that Tippit's gun was completely out of its holster. This is probably the explanation of the sudden explosion of violence after the previous friendly conversation between the two. See http://www.jdtippit.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.158.205.24 (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * From the testimony of Helen Markham:
 * Mr. DULLES. [Oswald] stepped back two steps from the car?
 * Mrs. MARKHAM. Just stepped back twice. Mr. Tippit, of course, the policeman — I didn't know it was Mr. Tippit —
 * Mr. DULLES. Yes.
 * Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly opened the door. He calmly crawled out like he wasn't angry.
 * Mr. DULLES. Did he have a weapon in his hands?
 * Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't see one.
 * Who is Murray Jackson? — Walloon 13:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Murray J. Jackson was a friend a Tippit's and a policeman. M.J.Jackson is referred to in the web-site mentioned by
 * 212.158.205.24 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 09:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Benavides said "The gun was in his hand." See Warren Commission, Vol.6, page 449.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * See Warren Commission, Vol.23, page 817. This shows that Benavides was much closer to Tippit than
 * Mrs. Markham was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * See Warren Commission, Chap.4, page 169. "Apparently he had reached for his gun;
 * it lay beneath him outside of the holster." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.212.139 (talk) 14:20, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Cartridge shell argument
Suggest that the two paragraphs that begin with "presence of the cartridge shells" be deleted. They are argumentative, unencyclopediac, not supported by citation, and have only the most tenuous relationship to a biography of Tippit. Joegoodfriend (talk) 17:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've reverted it. I placed the tags in the hope that some citations would be forthcoming. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 17:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Could someone explain this passage currently in the article:
 * Further[,] the appearance of cartridge shells at the crime scene raises question[s] for some because, according to Officer Hill, who took possession of Oswald's revolver at his arrest, the gun's six chambers were fully loaded with unspent cartiridges and that Oswald had no loose ammunition on his person.

What questions does it raise? Oswald was arrested about a half hour after the shooting of Office Tippit. Is that passage implying that Oswald didn't have time to reload his pistol in a half hour? — Walloon 04:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC) One thing I find strange is that Poe says he saw an automatic pistol, and Oswald had a .38 special revolver. Yet it isn't mentioned what kind of cartridge casings were found. .38 automatics use .38 ACP which is a different cartridge, so it would be a pretty big deal which kind the empty cartridges were, since if they were .38 ACP they wouldn't work in Oswald's gun, and if they were .38 special then there is something wrong with seeing an automatic pistol...85.157.155.247 (talk) 19:04, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's any indication that Poe "saw" an automatic. I believe he indicated in his preliminary report that the evidence was suggestive of an automatic. Specifically, the fact that the casings were lying on the ground. An automatic ejects its casings, a revolver doesn't. Poe probably didn't think Oswald was crazy enough to empty the casings and reload right at the crime scene. Poe didn't know Oswald. Joegoodfriend (talk) 21:12, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Taxi drop-off time
"However, the accuracy of Roberts' estimate can be confirmed by the fact that Oswald had been dropped off by cab three blocks away from his rooming house at 12:57 p.m. (Myers, With Malice, p.380.)" I have removed this inaccurate claim from the footnote about Earlene Roberts' estimate of Oswald's arrival at his rooming house. It is not an established "fact" that Oswald had been dropped off at 12:57 p.m. The only witness to Oswald's being dropped off was the cab driver, William Whaley, who recorded the journey in his log as occurring between 12:30 and 12:45 p.m. Whaley later testified that he routinely rounded off journeys to the nearest quarter-hour: "Now that could have been 10 minutes off in each direction because I didn't use a watch, I just guess, in other words, all my trips are marked about 15 minutes each." — Walloon (talk) 15:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It is true that the word "fact" may be out of order. It is with irony that I quote the Warren Report, but here goes, "The Greyhound Bus Station at Lamar and Jackson Streets, where Oswald entered Whaley's cab, is three to four short blocks south of Lamar and Elm. If Oswald left the bus at 12:44 p.m. and walked directly to the terminal, he would have entered the cab at 12:47 or 12:48 p.m. If the cab ride was approximately 6 minutes, as was the reconstructed ride, he would have reached his destination at approximately 12:54 p.m. If he was discharged at Neely and Beckley and walked directly to his roominghouse, he would have arrived there about 12:59 to 1 p.m. From the 500 block of North Beckley, the walk would be a few minutes longer, but in either event he would have been in the roominghouse at about 1 p.m. This is the approximate time he entered the roominghouse, according to Earlene Roberts, the housekeeper there. (See Commission Exhibit No. 1119-A, p. 158.)"
 * I could rewrite the footnote using the above as 1:00pm being "the Warren Commission's estimate." What do your think? Joegoodfriend (talk) 02:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * If you do, use "12:59 to 1:00 p.m." as the Warren Commission wrote. However, Vincent Bulgiosi makes a good argument that the WC was three minutes off on the taxi's departure time from the Greyhound Station:
 * Warren Commission assistant counsel, with a stopwatch, reconstructed with Whaley the route he took with Oswald, leaving the cabstand at the Greyhound bus depot around 12:48 p.m., most likely several minutes later than Oswald actually left there. I say that not only because Oswald would have probably been walking at a fast pace from the time he left the Depository, but most importantly because the most reasonable assumption is that Whaley put 12:30–12:45 p.m. on his trip ticket because he left at some time prior to 12:45 p.m., making the Warren Commission estimate of a 12:48 p.m. departure from the bus depot at least three minutes too late. It makes little sense that if Whaley left the depot at 12:48, he would record his departure time as being between 12:30 and 12:45 p.m.
 * You could also add that the HSCA, in its reconstruction of the event, concluded Oswald arrived at “approximately 12:55 P.M.” (HSCA Record 180-10115-10004, September 19, 1977, p. 2). — Walloon (talk) 04:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Impatient me just added both estimated times of arrival to the footnote. — Walloon (talk) 06:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * This change has my endorsement. Joegoodfriend (talk) 18:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits to Criticism of the case against Oswald
I have reverted the recent changes made to this section by an anonymous newbie editor. This is long-standing consensus text that should not be changed without discussion on this talk page. Furthermore, researchers need not automatically be labeled 'conspiracy theorists' simply because they uncover evidence possibly at variance with the Warren Commission's conclusions. Finally, the article does not need unsupported text regarding what is "generally accepted." Joegoodfriend (talk) 06:14, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Tippit was behind Oswald

 * Seeing as Tippit was driving east and Oswald was walking in the same direction, Officer Tippit had to have been behind Oswald-yet he was convinced that the slender white man walking ahead of him just had to be the 5'10, 165 pound, thirty year old, white man who had assssinated the President three miles away, less than an hour before. Pretty good reckoning for a guy who never went beyond the 10th grade in high school.--jeanne (talk) 17:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That's pretty insulting to imply that someone with a 10th grade education was stupid. Are you saying with a higher education Tippit could have better recognized Oswald? Tippit actually had two years of vocational training before he was hired as a police officer, and served as a patrol cop for eleven years before he was killed. Second point: There is evidence that Oswald was walking west on Tenth St., and turned around and began walking the opposite direction, away from Tippit's squad car, which was traveling east, when Tippit approached him. Half of the witnesses who saw Oswald on Tenth (before he met Tippit) said he was walking west; the other half of the witnesses, who saw Oswald only as he encountered Tippit, said he was traveling or facing east. See the section Why Tippit stopped Oswald of Dale K. Myers' blog. Myers wrote an entire book about the Tippit killing. — Walloon (talk) 20:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Gasway or Gasaway
The article gives his wife's surname as Gasaway, but I have seen it on Tippit sites throughout the Internet written as Gasway. Which is the correct version?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:01, 4 April 2009 (UTC) Even the external link provided gives her name as Gasway so I'm going to change the article from Gasaway to Gasway.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:05, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Benavides, Reynolds
I have removed two paragraphs by Mardude containing erroneous information about Tippit shooting witness Domingo Benavides, and post-shooting witness Warren Reynolds. First, it claims, "His [Reynolds'] shooter, Darrell Garner, was caught and not convicted". Garner was never charged with the shooting. Garner was arrested because earlier that day he had been on the Reynolds car lot trying to sell a car without a title, and became very angry with Reynolds. No other evidence linked him to the shooting, and he was eventually released. It is unfounded and impermissible to say that Garner was Reynolds' shooter. Mardude also writes that Garner's girlfriend, Betty MacDonald, "was a former employee of Jack Ruby, a stripper at the Carousel Club." The Warren Commission investigated and found she had never worked there (Warren Report, p. 663).

Mardude also wrote, "[Domingo] Benavides look-alike brother Eddy Benavides was killed by a shot in the back of the head in a beer joint on Second Avenue in Dallas. Since the case remained unsolved, J.W. Jackson, Domingo's father-in-law, did some investigating himself." Actually, Edward Benavides was shot by a drinking companion, who confessed to the killing and served twenty months in prison for manslaughter. — Walloon (talk) 16:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Markham and the 'numerous witnesses'
Walloon, why did you delete the text, "Markham made numerous false statements before the Commission, such as claiming to have been alone with Tippit's body for twenty minutes after the killing." ?

Markham testimony: P. 584

Markham (referring to Oswald): ...he turned and run and that's when I run to Mr. Tippit.

(snip)

Question: I see, and you went over to Officer Tippit then?

Markham: Yes sir.

Question: Did you have a chance to talk to him?

Markham: Yes sir.

Question: And, did he say anything?

Markham: Yes sir, he tried to talk to me.

(Obviously untrue. Tippit was dead.)

P. 590:

Markham: They wouldn't even come out and help me and do nothing after it was over.

Question: Even after it was over they didn't come out?

Markham: Not till the police, the ambulance came first then the policemen came.

Question: I see. How long would you say it was after the shooting until the first person came out?

Markham: About 20 minutes before.

Question: About twenty minutes before anyone came out?

Markham: Yes sir.

Question: And the officer was in the car dying all that time?

Markham: On the ground dying.

Also, I have to object to the text that Tippit, "according to numerous witnesses... was shot and killed by Lee Harvey Oswald". I'm aware that numerous witnesses observed Oswald at or near the scene, but I believe only Markham is identified as literally seeing the shooting and literally identifying him as the shooter. Thanks. Joegoodfriend (talk) 07:06, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That is from a transcript of a telephone conversation Helen Markham had with Mark Lane, not testimony she gave before the Commission, which is what the article claimed it was. — Walloon (talk) 09:54, 21 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh yeah I get it. Wasn't this tape recorded though? She really did say it, right? Thanks. Joegoodfriend (talk) 16:57, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I've never heard the tape recording itself, so I can't vouch for it. Several words in the transcript are marked "(unintelligible)" or "(phonetic)"; the call was made to the diner where Markham worked, during her shift. As for Tippit appearing to try to talk, Frank Cimino, who lived across the street, and who was the first person to join Markham, said that he saw Tippit move slightly and groan.


 * This is the call infamous for Lane (acting as Marguerite Oswald's attorney, although he didn't tell Markham that) trying again and again to get Markham to say that Tippit's killer was short, heavy, and bushy-haired. — Walloon (talk) 19:38, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Conspiracy theory section longer than standard official version official
Deleted conspiracy theory section since it is too long and since there is a separate article on it — Preceding unsigned comment added by NCDane (talk • contribs) 01:08, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Reverted your deletion. Criticism of the case against Oswald in the Tippit shooting and JFK assassination conspiracies theories are two separate, only tangentially related subjects. There's no overlap between the two articles on the two subjects. Joegoodfriend (talk) 05:57, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Redeleted for same resaonable cause originally stated.

reverting editor is mistaken when he characterizes deletion as "Criticism of the case against Oswald" and not "JFK assassination conspiracies theories". Any theory other than Oswald as lone gunman is an assassination theory, and the deleted text is concerned with nothing other than broader conspiracy. --NCDane (talk) 04:08, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Summary
The introductory summary of this article states that "according to multiple government investigations including the Warren Commission, was shot and killed by Lee Harvey Oswald after Tippit stopped Oswald". But I see no mention of any other government investigation that reached this conclusion. Could the article at least mention one of these other "multiple government investigations" to substantiate this statement? MisterSquirrel 18:54, 16 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MisterSquirrel (talk • contribs)
 * I have added the House Select Committee on Assassinations and an appropriate source within the body of the article. Location (talk) 18:56, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Should this be kept on here?
I am not doing a vandlism. (Sorry for spelling mistake)

Butch Burroughs, the ticket collector at the Texas Theater who also ran the concession stand, says that Oswald came into the Texas Theater between 1:00 and 1:07 pm, making Oswald's alleged 1:15 shooting of Officer J.D. Tippit impossible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p4AvezLnG0 should it be put on here which I did? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.0.98 (talk) 20:36, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Please add a citation from a reliable source (something other than youtube). Joegoodfriend (talk) 23:20, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

This youtube video is an excerpt from an interview of Butch Burroughs by author James W. Douglass, and is quoted on page 291 of his book "JFK and the unspeakable: why he died and why it matters". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.179.140 (talk) 04:40, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree that YouTube is not a reliable source. The discussion of the timeline in this context revolves around a conspiracy theory that is already discussed in John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories. Location (talk) 19:53, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Criticism of the case against Oswald
I have restored this section of the article to its long-standing consensus text. This text should not be deleted with the idea that the subject is covered in other articles. First of all, it is not in fact covered in other articles, and second, the details of JD Tippitt's murder are appropriate to this article. They are not inherently a part of any JFK assassination theory, nor are they inherently part of Lee Harvey Oswald's personal biography. Joegoodfriend (talk) 20:22, 13 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I have reverted this change. The subject of dissenting theories involving Tippit is covered sufficiently in John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories. In fact, this section was copied verbatim from it. An editor above put it correctly that the amount of text devoted to those theories was much more than that devoted to the official version... and that is a violation of WP:UNDUE. Elaborating on discrepancies based solely on primary sources is a violation of WP:OR. The secondary sources that elaborate on those discrepancies do so in the context of various conspiracy theories and that also warrants the "Main article" tag. If there is disagreement, an RFC should be opened for involvement by the wider community. Location (talk) 16:56, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Two or Four?
The Lee Harvey Oswald pages says four investigations but this section says two investigations, spelling error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.15.148.219 (talk) 14:46, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It appears as though there were four investigations that said Oswald killed Kennedy, but only two of them touched on Oswald killing Tippit. I have made the change. Location (talk) 19:49, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Tippit's pistol
There is still no reference in the article to the fact that Tippit had drawn his pistol before Oswald fired. See the paragraph "Minimise" above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.67.194 (talk) 12:51, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The Warren Commission's report states: "Apparently he had reached for his gun; it lay beneath him outside of the holster. Callaway picked up the gun." This could mean that Tippit fumbled for his gun as Oswald raised his weapon. It doesn't seem to be an important addition, but you could certainly make a proposal for appropriate wording. Location (talk) 18:36, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

What type of service pistol did Officer Tippit carry? L. Thomas W. (talk) 14:31, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Smith & Wesson K-frame revolver, .38 calibre, 4-inch barrel (therefore presumably the usual Military & Police Model 10 .38 Special favoured by most officers), serial 138278, which Tippit had registered with the Police Department on recruitment in 1952 and carried ever since. It's Texas, so officers provided their own weapons and the Police Department just set certain requirements such as a minimum 4-inch barrel for revolvers for uniformed duty. Nowadays they are supposed to renew their sidearms every couple of years, but it wasn't a requirement then.

Oswald's mail-order murder weapon was a version of the same revolver, but a wartime Victory Model manufactured for Lend-Lease supply to Britain, with British ordnance marks on the cylinder, and originally chambered for .38 British Service 200-grain or .38 S&W which is not the same as .38 Special. For US commercial resale, the gun was re-chambered for .38 Special and the 4-inch barrel was shortened. As .38 Special is actually .357, the barrel was slightly overbore. The fatal bullets were not precisely matched to Oswald's revolver because of the overbore factor, but the lands were consistent with Oswald's revolver and the gas-erosion marks meant that they were fired from an overbore weapon. Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:29, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Is Myers' book a reliable source?
Myers' book With Malice is cited several times but the book was self-published. According to Wikipedia guidelines:


 * 'Self Published Sources


 * Anyone can create a personal web page or publish their own book, and also claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published media, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (as distinguished from newsblogs, above), Internet forum postings, and tweets, are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.[7] Take care when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so.[9]'

Myers is known as a computer animation expert and in that capacity did work relating to images of the shooting of JFK. I'm unaware of anything that qualifies him on other aspects of the assassination let alone of the Tippit killing. Unless someone can justify its use I will edit the entry to remove claims sourced to the book.

Lenbrazil (talk) 00:28, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There are only 3 cites to Myers, and I think they are all noncontroversial and available elsewhere. Should be an easy fix. Joegoodfriend (talk) 06:45, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I've recently bought Myer's updated book. It's been praised by many people including Vincent Bugliosi and James Ewell and uses actual documents and radio log transcripts as supporting evidence. Personally, think it's a pretty reliable book, but I'm not sure if the praise for the book passes the "established expert" matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeeHarveyDongwald (talk • contribs) 19:57, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 April 2016
The words "allegedly" should now be added to all statements concerning the killing of Tippit by Oswald. There is no authoratative substantiate evidence of Oswald having any involvement with Tippit.

Mysteriogo (talk) 13:16, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: read through any of the cited sources in the J. D. Tippit section Cannolis (talk) 13:28, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2016
Revise Infobox from: | death_place = Dallas, Texas

Revise Infobox to, as previous versions were correct as stated:


 * death_place = Methodist Hospital Dallas, Texas

Note: Tippit was transported from the scene of the shooting on 10th Street by ambulance to Methodist Hospital where he was examined by two physicians, then pronounced dead at 1:25 pm by Dr. Richard A. Liguori.

69.209.233.203 (talk) 16:55, 28 June 2016 (UTC)


 * I think that's a bit specific for the infobox field. Typically, it's just a location, with inline text in the article itself mentioning a particular hospital or venue. — Andy W.  ( talk  · ctb) 22:44, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Date of Burial
You give Officer Tippit's burial date as Nov 25th. Robert Morningstar insists Officer Tippit was buried the day after he was shot Nov 23. Also the photograph of Officer Tippit is the so called 'Elvis Photograph' which was taken 15 years before he was shot, why is a more recent photograph of the Officer never shown?

The current theory by some researchers is that it was Officer Tippit, not JFK who was shot in the Limo is Dallas while serving as a 'security stand in double for JFK'. The grounds for this theory are 1 No one anywhere in Dallas can provide credible proof for where Officer Tippit was on the day of the shooting. 2 Officer Tippit was a virtual twin of JFK and was the but of friendly jokes by his fellow Dallas Officers who called him 'Jack Tippit' after JFK. 3 there was a closed casket at the fallen Officers (alleged funeral) in which he was hurriedly buried (supposedly). The photographs of the 'President' in Bethsada Hospital look nothing like JFK they do resemble Officer Tippit. There was no conspiracy to kill JFK that day in Dallas, simply a security operation that went tragically wrong. The motive for the sensless murder of Officer Tippit while acting as a stand in was indignation at the 'fake' parade.

My sources for most of the data about Dallas Nov 22 are from the work of Robert Morningstar, but I have left out his frankly unbelievable theory that Officer Tippit was shot to provide a corpse for an autopsy. All the 'Mob Plots' 'CIA Plots' and goodness knows whatever els nonsense stories are just cover smoke to hide a tragic, but understandable failure of security in Dallas that day. Johnwrd (talk) 07:28, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

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Widow of Dallas officer slain by Lee Harvey Oswald dies
Widow of Dallas officer slain by Lee Harvey Oswald dies .... Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:09, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Why so much
There is barely anything known about J.D Tippet.So why is there so many topics on Talk 47.188.66.194 (talk) 21:08, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Who are Cunningham and Nicol?
In the 10th paragraph of the Murder and Investigation section, the text refers to two names (Cunningham and Nicol) as if they had been previously mentioned in the article, when they were not. There is absolutely no context as to who these people are or why their opinion matters. I take it that they testified before the Warren Commission, but this section needs to be re-written to make more sense. As someone reading the article for the first time I was very bewildered when the two names were mentioned (when you mention someone by their last name only in an article like this, it's typically because they have already been introduced and context given, so when I got to this point I thought I had missed a section of text).  M r A urelius R  Talk! 22:03, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * See note b and reference 39. They were FBI experts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:7996:B901:6854:A6D5:E933:ABD (talk) 13:51, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Burns reference
I don't see why, in the first section, the Burns family is referenced along with the Tippit family. I can't find any other reference to Burns in the article and I don't see the connection. Al Begamut (talk) 00:58, 22 November 2023 (UTC)