Talk:J. M. Barrie

"at the Internet Movie Database"
The sentence "The BBC made an award-winning miniseries by Andrew Birkin, The Lost Boys at the Internet Movie Database. . ." seem awkwardly worded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.206.117.246 (talk • contribs) 06:30, 12 December 2006

&mdash; Asch jr. talk to me 11:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason is that the IMDB Title template was used, which appends some text which may not be relevant to the context. I've replaced the IMDB link with a wikilink which I found on the disambiguation page for The Lost Boys.

Death of David Barrie?
I believe Barrie's brother David died while young and may have been part of the inspration for Peter. Will verify this and if true add it. Any comments anyone ? Julianp 01:17, 13 May 2004 (UTC)


 * David Barrie died in January 1867, and he was the third brother, therefore probably <5 years old (and certainly <7). I think the inspiration part is speculative. - Nunh-huh 01:21, 13 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. I know of one commentator who stated that Barrie's mother had once said that David would remain "forever young". If true that would indeed suggest a clear inspiration for Peter. Any info on that one? Julianp 01:37, 13 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Drat, now you've made me do research and I have to retract David's age at death, as he was an older brother: killed in a skating accident aged 13. Here's what Andrew Birkin says in J.M. Barrie and the Lost Boys: "Barrie was too young to remember the tragedy with any clarity, his chief memory being that of playing with his younger sister Maggie under the table on which stood David's coffin. For his mother, however, it was a catastrophe beyond belief, and one from which she never fully recovered"..."If Margaret Ogilvy drew a measure of comfort from the notion that David, in dying a boy, would remain a boy for ever, Barrie drew inspiration." So you can safely ascribe the contention that David was an inspiration for Peter to Birkin. - Nunh-huh


 * Nice one. My pathetic excuse for not checking it myself is that I have to do some work now and again !!


 * Why no mention of Psychogenic_dwarfism? He is mentioned there and on other sites http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web3/Munoz.html, http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ogilvie/margaret.html) as a psychogenic dwarf, but is this confirmed somewhere?


 * Pictures of him imply he was not a dwarf or even remarkably short: http://www.angus.gov.uk/history/features/images/Barrie-350W.jpg This picture shows him alongside H. G. Wells who, also, wasn't a dwarf: http://www.voting.ukscientists.com/welsbari.jpg Pictures of him on http://www.jmbarrie.co.uk also show him as being noticably taller than the women and children around him. CaerieD 19:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

milk and cookies
... Barrie stated that they would tell stories, have warm milk and cookies, and that it is was very charming.
 * I doubt that he would have used THOSE words.... "milk and cookies" is very much an American expression. IVoteTurkey 01:25, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think the "milk and cookies" and "charming" addition at the end of the Barrie article are in reference to the statement Michael Jackson made about why he likes being around children. I guess someone just couldn't resist making a comparison.

Inspiration for Peter Pan
an excellent article by Anthony Lane on J.M. Barrie and the inspiration for the creation of Peter Pan appears in the November 22, 2004 issue of The New Yorker Magazine (a link to this article was added to "external links" section January 21, 2005) (contributor Khyber453@comcast.net) this change is a response to a request in the "Talk" section of Wikipedia for information about Barrie family history.

accusations of pedophilia
I am a bit disappointed that the article practically opens with an excuse (about his NOT being a pdeophile). As the French well know, qui s'excuse s'accuse, and Barrie needs no apologists, he seems to have handled himself with great dignity. That does not mean that he did not love his boys deeply, or that he did not enjoy their physical beauty. But no mention of that anywhere. He may have been short, but it is us who are the dwarves. Haiduc 03:32, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have just watched the film with K.Winslet and J.Depp, and have been very surprised instead, to discover here that J. M. Barrie falsefied the will of Sylvia Llewelyn Davies in order to become one of the tutors of the kids. To me, this is a clear sign that the mother did not trust him and opens the path to innuendos about pedophilia. I'd like the reference to this fact to be clearer --S vecchiato (talk) 10:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see how JMB's action says anything about Sylvia's opinion of him. For years she clearly had trusted him with the boys, and the fact that she named him as co-guardian (along with their uncles and her mother) supports that.  She also expressed the hope that the boys would look to him as a father figure.  JMB inserting himself into that section is hard to explain (the names look a lot alike and I think he - perhaps wishfully - misread her handwriting), but ultimately it's beside the point, because he was already intimately involved in their lives... with Sylvia's approval.  I've updated the text to make this more clear. - JasonAQuest (talk) 15:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you JasonAQuest. I was curious. You have acces to Barkin's book maybe? --S vecchiato (talk) 16:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I have Andrew Birkin's book. - JasonAQuest (talk) 18:16, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

When I read the article the first time, this stuck out to me (though it is not in the opener) because the thought that he sexually abused the boys never entered my mind until I read the defense against the rumors. I could understand why others would assume the worst about a man but I disregard it as rumors. It's quite an extraordinary claim to accuse someone of sexual abuse and being a pedophile. I want to remove the entire paragraph outright on the same logic as Haiduc and the Wikipedia policies surrounding verifiability and speculation. In other words, it "sounds like it is true, so it must be true" doesn't seem reasonable. As such, I've added the Who? tag to the speculative line (which the rest of the paragraph responds to). If, in fact, someone has gone on the record of accusing Barrie of these behaviors then it seems notable, verifiable and, due to the already researched defense providing neutrality, acceptable. Otherwise, I hope someone deletes the rumor mongering line (and thus the rest of the paragraph is rendered unnecessary). BossAnders (talk) 14:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The rumor is so widespread in modern times - even to the point of being simply assumed by many to be true - that I feel it would be irresponsible for the article to stay silent about it. As cited in the article, Nico took the trouble to deny it, and Lord Boothby (a former schoolmate of Michael's), volunteered his opinion on the subject in an interview without even being directly asked.  It should be easy to demonstrate that it's a common question by citing articles that bring it up. Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * As I have now done. In looking for this references, I also discovered that there's a rather sensational book out in the UK (Captivated by Piers Dudgeon) that asserts some rather malicious things about JMB's relationship with the Davies boys. - Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:55, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It wasn't primarily his boy-lust that should be considered. I owned a book several years ago (I'm only 25 and it was an old book) that was called something like "the sex lives of famous people" and it discussed Barrie in great detail. From what I remember, he was suspected of dying a virgin, and was mainly a voyeur and had a shockingly large collection (his own photos) of nude children. I'm considering this book fairly accurate as it refuted the Catherine the Great horse death story and explained that she was just a size queen, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.145.94.146 (talk) 14:23, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid it's not accurate. OK, JMB probably did die a virgin.  But the only nude photos I've heard of from any Barrie biographer doing original research (even including Dudgeon) were some innocent vacation snapshots of the Davies boys playing in the water. This one for example, was included in the storybook album he gave to the boys' parents as a gift.  (Perhaps you're misremembering something about Charles Dodgson, who did produce quite a few nude child portraits?) -Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:22, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * and there has since been speculation that Barrie was a paedophile or that he engaged in child sexual abuse.
 * This is such historical revisionism. These concepts didn't even exist then. The term "pederast" was used, but taking the modern concepts and imposing them back in time with their modern connotations is just ridiculous. --75.108.199.245 (talk) 23:12, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * A statement that in modern times JMB has sometimes been suspected of a sexual attraction to the boys and of possibly acting on it, is not "historical revisionism". It's a statement of what people have said about him in modern times, and serves to introduce the evidence that this speculation appears to be incorrect.  If you doubt that this speculation exists, it's not hard to find. The cited Globe article is an example. So is this review of Finding Neverland in Newsweek. Roger Ebert commented on it too . Lead us not into temptation: Catholic priests and the sexual abuse of children repeats the pedophilia rumor without questioning it, and adds that he probably abused the boys sexually. You'll find JMB featured on a site of Famous British Paedophiles. Really, it's a common assumption that he may have had sex with the boys, and if not that he wanted to. The assumption is almost certainly incorrect, and needs to be debunked (as the article does), but I don't see the value in pretending that neither of these accusations exists. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 11:33, 25 April 2011 (UTC)


 * ...it's a common assumption that he may have had sex with the boys, and if not that he wanted to.


 * may have had sex here, but in the article child sex abuse? I think people can get carried away with assumptions, especially about material like this. Maybe he was just emotionally manipulative and possessive of people. I wouldn't use the term "child sex abuse" unless it was in a direct quote from a source that directly confronts the question (not a book about Catholic priests IMO). Maybe use may have had sexual contact, but not "child sexual abuse". That's a leap a source should make, not Wikipedia. --DanielCD (talk) 18:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Please note: The article does not endorse the speculation; it only acknowledges that it exists, in order to explain why sources (and WP) have addressed it. (This is covered in earlier discussion, which questioned why it was necessary to report on the subject at all.)
 * I believe you are reading the sources I just cited with a greater degree of clinical specificity than the authors intended. When people speak of a "convicted pedophile" or a "pedophile priest" they don't mean that the person is merely attracted to children; they mean that he has sexually abused them.  I don't like it, but that's how people use the term.  I do think it's worthwhile to make a clear distinction on Wikipedia – hence saying that JMB has been the subject of speculation that he was one or both – but it is overreaching for us to deny that many people do suspect he had sex with the Davies boys, solely because they use the popular term for it rather than the clinically correct phrase. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 02:21, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree it should be mentioned. I'd hate to see a detail like this this get labored too much. What do you suggest? --DanielCD (talk) 09:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The details of his nude photos of the boys (this was, though, a popular thing for many photographers, seen as celebrating the innocence of childhood, an argument that has also been used for Lewis Carroll's nude child photos)and letters(in particular a very odd letter where he writes that he wishes one of the boys was a girl so he wouldn't feel uncomfortable about writing to him the way he does) to them, not to mention the changing of the will, do seem to show unhealthy obsession, but there is no definite evidence it was sexual. Male-male and female-female Victorian relationships could be romantic and hyperbolic without being sexual, but it seems odd for a grown man to have a romantic/paternal relationship with prepubescent boys, even if it was hyperbolic. Piers Dudgeon's books are full of inaccuracies and sensationalism. However, the evidence is contradictory on whether Barrie experienced sexual attraction. Nico said he had none to 'man, woman or child', but the biographer who interviewed Nico and the other boys, Andrew Birkin, said he often fell in love with actresses and would have been a womaniser if he'd not been impotent. 92.40.9.166 (talk) 13:00, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It's not uncommon for an asexual person to have romantic feelings, so that isn't really contradictory. This is a very old discussion... is there something specific about the current version of the article you wish to discuss? Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:14, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

spelling of Llewellyn-Davies
In the opening para, Llewellyn has 2 sets of double els, but later on it has only one such set. I don't know which version is correct. Can anybody assist? JackofOz 05:58, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thrums
His first two novels were set in Kirriemuir, disguised as "Thrums" (his father was a weaver).

What does Thrums mean, and what is the connection with weaving? Ubermonkey 13:28, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thrum EntChickie 16:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I sometimes wonder why Anthony Powell put Barrie, and H.G. Wells in with the fictional writer St.John Clarke in his novel "The Acceptance World". (the three of them are in an old photograph, then they are discussed a bit). I suppose no one knows, but Powell introduced nearly every element for a reason Seminumerical 10:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Psychogenic dwarfism
The page for this condition mentions JM Barrie as a sufferer - this is a very serious condition usually found in feral children. Can anybody tell us whether he suffered the condition or something similar, and if so why ? thanks WinstonBerni 23:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, the article says he "never reached puberty". However both illustrations of him show him wearing a mustache. Can this be explained? -- The Photon 01:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Not only does he have a moustache in every photo I've seen, he has an adult jawline. His face is not at all child-like. The page on psychogenic dwarfism says "regular growth will resume when the source of stress is removed."


 * Is there any evidence that he "never reached puberty"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.171.225.175 (talk • contribs) 04:37, September 10, 2006


 * Robert Sapolsky's Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers(3rd edition, 2004)) cites a discussion of Barrie's condition in Martin J. & Reichlin S.'s Clinical Neuroendocrinology (1st edition 1977) which says that Barries stopped growing as a child and that his marriage was never consummated (and grew to be obsessed with his mother and young boys). You can [ http://www.amazon.com/Why-Zebras-Get-Ulcers-Third/dp/0805073698/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product/103-0704999-1879805?ie=UTF8 search inside Sapolsky's book at Amazon]. Search for "Barrie" and look at p105-106 and also the notes in the "back matter" section. This doesn't say anything specifically about puberty though, so perhaps the wording in this article should be changed to reflect these references Bwithh 14:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If Barrie 'never reached puberty' - how come he had a moustache, and quite a full one? A false one? Hardly. Delayed maybe, but never? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.143.8.122 (talk • contribs) 22:34, October 17, 2006


 * I removed the bit about him never having reached puberty--the source was a college student's paper, which itself linked to a websource that is no longer available. Katr67 19:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the psychogenic dwarfism is a cute allusion to Peter Pan at best. In the pictures at http://www.jmbarrie.co.uk he's shown with his mother and the Llewelyn-Davies children, including one of him and Michael, when Michael was twenty (http://www.jmbarrie.co.uk/images/scans/1920-04-11-PX677-JMB-MLD.620.jpg). He's clearly of normal height. CaerieD 19:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the claim about Barrie suffering from Psychogenic Dwarfism. As CaerieD explains above, he seems to have been of average height for his own family if not the general population. The only source for the claim was an undergraduate class paper. If it's true, we should be able to do better than that. Please do not re-insert the claim about Psychogenic Dwarfism unless you have a proper source for it. CKarnstein 21:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Another reference to his height and facial hair-- Uncle John's Absolutely Absorbing Bathroom Reader has an article titled "The Dark Side of Peter Pan," which states that after the death of Barrie's brother, he tried to comfort his mother by "imitating David's mannerisms and mimicking his speech. This bizarre charade went on for years...and only got weirder: when James reached 13, the age at wihich David had died, he literally stopped growing. He never stood taller than 5', and didn't shave until he was 24. He always had a thin, high-pitched voice" (p. 507).

This would explain the thirty-something moustache, and also the dwarfism references. I won't correct anything, but that's another, more trustworthy reference in regards to this issue. Diimmortales 01:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I've just edited back another overly-reaching statement about Barrie suffering from P.D., to acknowledge it as a theory (with the source), without the assertion of undocumented "facts" like the autopsy confirming he was pre-pubescent. - JasonAQuest (talk) 12:38, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It's possible that Sapolsky is an unreliable source on Barrie, his claims can be found here, and he does not document them in the article.Brinerustle (talk) 13:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Let's see: He misspells the man's name, gets his age at death wrong by 17 years, places the story of him witnessing his brother's death as an 8-year-old in the decade before he was born, exaggerates his shortness, makes a dubious claim about a man with a bushy mustache never having reached puberty... I think it's safe to say that Sapolsky simply doesn't know what he's talking about in regard to Barrie. At best he's repeating info from an obviously unreliable source.  At least the 2004 edition of his book doesn't have the most serious errors of fact, but even without them he presents his hypothesis as a solid diagnosis, and there really isn't enough evidence to support his remote after-the-fact diagnosis. - JasonAQuest (talk) 23:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

May I add some generally accepted knowledge about Barrie's diminutive build and that of the local population. The east coast of Scotland traditionally has been known to have a breed of diminutive people of which Barrie was evidently one. His mother with the name of Ogilvy would indicate that she was a native of the east coast. The criminal history of Dundee cites a gang which terrified the city for a number of years known as the Cheeky Forty due to their diminutive size. The recently disbanned Gordon Regiment of Aberdeen was known for its minature sized soldiers and their tenacity. The average height of soldiers in WW1 was apparently 5' 3" (but I stand to be corrected on this point). Additionally, beards and mustaches in that era were in vogue probably similar to the cropped headed men of today (2010). One local Lady who apparently knew Barrie maintains that he was vain. Furthermore, I spent a few years as a Child Care Officer with the Fife County Council when I found it easy and enjoyable to write children's fiction yet upon departure from the post I lost this ability. This knowledge tells me that Barrie was a heterosexual but a tenaciously ambitious one, an intelligent man who understood the fears, frustrations, dreams, and desires of prepubescent boys. He also appears to have been a caring and honourable person; how, indeed, can anyone maintain otherwise? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Delparc (talk • contribs) 00:21, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the info (albeit uncited) about how common Barrie's height would be in that population. I'd remind you, however, that Wikipedia talk pages are not the place to speculate – and especially not to express our personal opinions – about his personality. Our goal here is only to accurately represent the best published information. - Jason A. Quest (talk) 02:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I had a look at Zebras Don't Get Ulcers on amazon and I'm not conviced of its reliability as a source for a claim that Barrie suffered from this condition. It also includes various other claims, such as the sentence "He also had a lifelong obsession with young boys and his private writing include passages of sado-masochism and paedophilia." I don't think speculation has a place here. He refers to a book by Martins and Reichlin called Clinical Neuroendrocrinology (1977) which looks like a better source if anyone has the chance to get hold of it. In the meantime, I think it is best to delete the speculative claim. Totorotroll (talk) 12:19, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I also think this is worth having a look at regarding the reliability of the source: http://neverpedia.com/pan/Why_Zebras_Don%27t_Get_Ulcers Totorotroll (talk) 12:51, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Footnote reference link for psychogenic dwarfism
whats wrong with it?? why wont it work properly??!?!!? someone fix it!!??! urhghgughuhguurgh!!!! Bwithh 19:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Jack?
The article reads "after meeting George and Jack", but Jack is not mentioned earlier as one of the boys. Can someone please clarify? --1000Faces 07:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Jack was the more commonly used nickname for John, was the second eldest of the boys. --woggly 12:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

barrie and his mother
The reference to Barrie's mother on this page doesn't tally with the description in the Article from the new yorker; http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/articles/041122crat_atlarge?041122crat_atlarge

The room was dark, and when I heard the door shut and no sound come from the bed I was afraid, and I stood still. I suppose I was breathing hard, or perhaps I was crying, for after a time I heard a listless voice that had never been listless before say, “Is that you?” I think the tone hurt me, for I made no answer, and then the voice said more anxiously “Is that you?” again. I thought it was the dead boy she was speaking to, and I said in a little lonely voice, “No, it’s no’ him, it’s just me.” Then I heard a cry, and my mother turned in bed, and though it was dark I knew that she was holding out her arms.

This sounds quite different, and implies she loved him for himself; that he was the one who felt she would prefer his brother. Should the wiki article be corrected? I don't know the sources well enough myself. JClare 22:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Acquaintances
I seriously doubt whether Barrie met either Robert Louis Stevenson or Arthur Conan Doyle at Edinburgh University. Sure he corresponded with Stevenson, but as far as I know they never actually met in person. Given that Stevenson was ten years his senior, doesn't make sense that they would have met as students. I believe he met Conan Doyle in London. The two were indeed friends, and even collaborated on a flop musical. All in all the section about his acquaintances is sorely lacking: Barrie basically knew everyone who was anyone back in his day. --woggly 12:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

John Lennon song Beautiful Boy (Darling Boy)
The line Life is what happens to you, while you're busy making other plans. Is this a Barrie quote? GoodDay 23:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Citation Needed?
Wondering if anyone agreed with this...Quote under the Llewellyn-Davies section states "Following Sylvia's death a few years later, Barrie claimed that they had been engaged to be married." In none of my research, have I ever heard this claim. Does anyone have a citation for this? I assumed it was a well-known fact that the feelings Barrie had towards Sylvia were purely platonic.--sidahboo 08:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It's brought up on page 191 of J.M.Barrie and the Lost Boys. Both Jack and Nico reported hearing the claim; Peter said it was wishful thinking on JMB's part. - JasonAQuest (talk) 18:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Scottish or British
Contrary to what User:79.73.94.229 asserted in the edit history, Scottish writers are commonly identified in their intros as "Scottish", not as "British". I just looked at over a dozen random entries on list of Scottish writers, and all but one called the subject "Scottish". (The exception was Robbie Burns(!), whose intro paragraph doesn't apply an adjective to him, but is instead littered with references to "Scotland" and "Scots".) While "British" may be more common among English UK writers, I believe that merely reflects a tendency for English people in general to identify themselves as "British" rather than "English"; this is markedly less common for Scottish people. Wikipedia's convention is to use the term the subject uses/would have used, and I think it's pretty clear that despite his long residence in London (where the theatre scene was) JMB - whose family, favorite holiday spots, and choice of burial site were all in Scotland - was "Scottish". - JasonAQuest (talk) 23:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well unless you know JM Barrie personally or have some way of contacting him, that is just your opinion that he would prefer that term. English writer JK Rowling is titled a British writer on her page, and the tendancy is for other people to label English people as British and Scottish people as Scottish. 79.74.53.132 (talk) 00:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Obviously I don't know him personally, but his foster-son Peter Llewelyn Davies certainly did, and he called Barrie a "little Scotch genius". I had no real opinion about it before I started researching him, but after reading three books about him, it seems clear to me that "Scottish" fits him.  He grew up in Scotland, went to school and university in Scotland, made a name for himself writing about Scotspeople, went back to Scotland to marry, formed a pen-pal relationship with Robert Louis Stevenson based on their common Scottishness (and literary interests), repeatedly brought "his boys" to Scotland for holidays, was rector of a Scottish university and chancellor of another, and was buried in Scotland.  Other reference works - even Encyclopedia Britannica - describe him as "Scottish".  We do have access to J. K. Rowling, and can ask her whether she prefers "British" over "English", so I have no problem with that either way.  But on what basis do you presume to know that Barrie would prefer "British"?  Because that's what you're doing by changing it.  The fact remains that other Scottish writers are typically described in Wikipedia as "Scottish"; why shouldn't that apply to Barrie? - JasonAQuest (talk) 01:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

His Scottishness is made perfectly clear throughout the entire article, his place or birth is given first and foremost, and I am not the one presuming to know anything about Barrie's personal preferences in regard to identity. He was a baronet of the British Empire and he lived in Britain all his life (but not in Scotland all his life). I don't see why referring to his nationality should be perceived as refusing to acknowledge his lifelong connections to his ethnic background. 79.74.35.122 (talk) 02:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You are presuming that he'd prefer "British", because you changed it to that. Why?  The original reason you gave (claiming it was contrary to Wikipedia convention) is bogus, so... why? - JasonAQuest (talk) 03:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Look, stop trying to tell me what I am saying by my actions, as it's just plain arrogant and unhelpful to the discussion. I could claim that what you are saying by your actions is that the national identity of British people in the United Kingdom is inferior to their constituent region and that you are pushing an agenda that separatism rules. The original reason I gave still stands, and unless there is going to be a blanket policy on Wikipedia that stipulates that all writers from the UK should be labelled by their individual ethnicities or national identities, this dispute will not be resolved. 79.73.31.60 (talk) 12:24, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not guessing at your motivation, just pointing out that you're making the same sort of unsupported assumption you accuse me of. You're applying a double standard: your preference to change it need not be justified objectively, but the existing version must be defended.  You are pushing to change it, but accuse me of pushing an agenda because I wish to keep it as it's read since the article was created in 2002.  What would be helpful is if you'd actually answer my question: Why change it?  Your original justification does not stand, because it ignores the fact that Scottish writers are rather consistently described as Scottish in other Wikipedia articles.  You evidently think they should not be, and that can certainly be debated, but Wikipedia precedent does not support changing it here.  Conventional usage elsewhere does not support changing it here.  The consensus of the article's history does not support changing it.  I'm listening for an argument that does.  (For the record: as a German-Hispanic-Dutch American I don't care one way or the other about political separatism in the UK.  Scotland can be ruled from London, Edinburgh, or even Caernarfon for all I care.  If that's what you're really arguing about here, please set it aside, because it's not relevant.) - JasonAQuest (talk) 15:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Why is it not enough that the entire article makes his Scottish ethnicity more than obvious? There is nothing wrong with calling him a British novelist and dramatist since his birthplace and hertitage discussed in detail. 194.73.217.244 (talk) 14:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * But what's wrong with describing him as "Scottish"? Why is it necessary to change it?  It's a simple and perfectly appropriate question to someone pushing for a change to a long-standing consensus, and I have yet to see it explained. - JasonAQuest (talk) 15:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It's the overriding consensus amongst nationalists, zealots and separatists, and just because it's longstanding doesn't make it correct. I have yet to see it explained why "British" is so unacceptable when his Scottish ethnicity is detailed throughout the entire article - but I can't be bothered to ask you because this is a SUPER boring debate now! I love it when people just strangle the life out of things to bore other people into submission. Let the nationalists and ignorant Americans prevail! Hurray hurray! 79.73.83.148 (talk) 16:09, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Still no answer to my question, just a repetition of the double standard, and a combination of personal attack and nationalist slur. Sorry that this fight you started went on longer than you'd hoped, but I'd still rather be boring than boorish. - JasonAQuest (talk) 16:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Well you get a home run for being both - congrats ;-D 194.73.217.244 (talk) 16:39, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Infobox
I don't know if anyone agrees, but I think the Infobox Notable Works section is terrible. Doesn't he have other notable works that aren't about Peter Pan? Dear Brutus, for instance? --15lsoucy (talk) 11:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Does anyone ever refer to him as "J.M. Barrie, the author of Dear Brutus (or whatever)"? Do they routinely mention certain works in addition to Peter Pan when they talk about him? - Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:23, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's probably his greatest success besides Peter Pan. Hmmm. Maybe I was clouded. Sorry. --15lsoucy (talk) 23:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If there's a source for it... - Jason A. Quest (talk) 10:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I mean Charles Dickens has eight books on his list and H. G. Wells has six... --15lsoucy (talk) 03:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Alice Sit-By-The-Fire
Wikipedia shows a date of 1919, but according to the Internet Broadway Database, Beatrice Agnew, Ethel Barrymore, and John Barrymore appeared in a double bill with "Pantaloon" at the Criterion Theatre on Broadway in New York City. The opening date was Christmas Day, 1905. Agnew and John Barrymore were in both plays. Lionel Barrymore appeared in "Pantaloon" A version available on Amazon has a 1905 date ( http://www.amazon.com/Alice-Fire-James-Matthew-Barrie/dp/1406929247/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274535281&sr=8-4) Jtyroler (talk) 13:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


 * 1905 is correct; Alice was his first play after Peter Pan. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 13:55, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

New play - Mythmakers - about the friendhip between JM Barrie and Scott of the Antarctic
--Mais oui! (talk) 06:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Two friends who took the world by storm, The Scotsman, 2 September 2010

Opera Jane Annie
quote: "Barrie also authored Jane Annie, a failed comic opera for Richard D'Oyly Carte (1893), which he begged his friend Arthur Conan Doyle to revise and finish for him."

This should be rewritten in two or three sentences. Our list of works--maybe unreliable in this--implies that Doyle did help and finish it in some sense before 1893. Also that the music was written by someone else--reliable, I'm sure. What does "for R.D.C." mean? When did it fail and in what sense, at Barrie's hand or after Doyle helped?

--P64 (talk) 00:09, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Richard D'Oyly Carte was the owner of the Savoy theater, and requested JMB to write it. The production failed at the box office. See Jane Annie for more info. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 00:21, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

The Little Minister
Regarding Little Minister or The Little Minister, subject of revise-and-revert a few hours ago.
 * WorldCat: Barrie reports it his second most widely-held title in libraries (with a high score, i know from experience)
 * FYI, here are the U.S. library of congress catalog records with early dates.

We disambiguate unusually, The Little Minister (disambiguation). Presumably our now-primary film article The Little Minister will be renamed if someone writes a book and/or play article.

--P64 (talk) 01:07, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Images
Both images of Barrie in the article are misdated, the first is a crop of an 1892 photo by Herbert Rose Barraud in the National Portrait Gallery, the second is not dated in the Library of Congress, but there is no way it is 1910 as Barrie had aged considerably by then, here's a photo of Barrie from 1909. It looks close to the 1892 portrait and the 1894 Elliott & Fry portrait at the NPG. If there are no objections I will relabel, possible adding further images of him at a greater age. Vladeraz (talk) 22:15, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Both images corrected, one added. There are later images from 1909 and 1922 but you'd need to prove these were published before 1923 in the US to be public domain. Vladeraz (talk) 18:16, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Houses in Kensington and Bayswater
I've removed the details about the two houses Barrie lived in in Gloucester Place and Bayswater Road firstly because the Literary Career section wouldn't be the right place for this and also because some of the facts about the house are incorrect or not properly sourced. The first reference from the Telegraph reads more like an estate agent's blurb, wishful thinking of the occupier: the house in Gloucester Road is not the inspiration for the Darlings' house. Barrie himself states in the opening of the play that the Darlings live in Bloomsbury, based on the house where he had lodgings when he first moved to London. Besides, there is no balcony in either the play or novel, just a window.

In the house in Bayswater Road, Barrie had a studio at the back of the garden, where he wrote Peter Pan, but he didn't use a room upstairs (source: Denis Mackail's biography, listed in the reference section). You need to be subscribed to the Sunday Times to read the article in full, so the reference is not acceptable for WP (and besides, it's full of mistakes and estate agent's hype). --Stelmaris (talk) 20:42, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Agreed. However it is not a requirement that an article be available to read online; if it were Mackail's book would not be acceptable. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 23:33, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Absolutely, it has never been a requirement that references are available online, which is why there is a 'subscription required' parameter in the citation template. Actually, you can access the Sunday Times article online with an account from any British library. It was clumsy of me to put the information in the wrong section, but thankfully user:Tmol42 kindly moved the deleted information to the correct section. If the information about Barrie working upstairs is incorrect I'll remove it, but the citations I've used are perfectly adequate as references for the other information I've added unless and until someone supplies some of better quality. Richerman    (talk) 19:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Point taken, and sorry I jumped in too quick! I have however deleted all that trivia about the previous occupants of the Gloucester Road house, which wasn't even based on reality. I would also point out the Sunday Times article about the house in Bayswater is full of factual errors (such as the reference to Porthos, who died before the Barries moved into the house), and is not what could be considered as a serious journalistic piece, but an article on the Property section of the newspaper, possibly partly paid for by the estate agents to hype up interest.--Stelmaris (talk) 09:31, 17 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm lost now (sorry about the pun!) - I never added any trivia about the previous occupants. The only edit you made since the information was moved into the marriage section was to delete the bit about the balconies here. Incidentally, before I made these additions there was nothing in the article about the couple moving to London. When did they move from Nottingham and where else did they live? You've mentioned here a flat in Bloomsbury but there's nothing about that in the article although the "Bloomsbury scenes" are mentioned with no real context. Obviously the move to Kensington was important for the development of the Peter Pan story and meeting the LLewellyn Davies boys. Richerman    (talk) 10:02, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

I meant the trivia about the balconies - and I didn't necessarily meant that for you, sorry if you got that impression.

Only Barrie lived in Nottingham, from 1882 to 1884, before going back to Scotland. Then in 1885 he moved down to London and took up various lodgings first in Bloomsbury (Guilford Street, Grenville Street, Furnival Inns) as well as in the Marylebone and Mayfair areas when still a bachelor. The lodgings in Grenville are the ones referred to in the first scene of Peter Pan, setting the scene and location for the Darlings' house. Both Barrie and Mary lived in London when they got married and the house in Gloucester Road was the first he ever purchased. The move to South Kensington was definitely important in his life and the development of the Peter Pan stories, starting with The Little White Bird he wrote while in Gloucester Road, then the play while in Leinster Corner (and Black Lake Cottage). After his divorce, he moved to the Adelphi building off the Strand, where he wrote the novel Peter and Wendy. All of this information is found in Denis Mackail's very detailed biography, written shortly after Barrie's death, which is listed on the page. I would add all this to the page, but I'm not sure in what section? --Stelmaris (talk) 14:56, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

I've just edited the paragraph, and deleted the text about the Barries moving to London, because they already lived in the city. They were married in Kirriemuir because he had fallen ill when visiting his mother, and Mary (then newly engaged) came up to nurse him. After their marriage, they went travelling on the Continent (mainly Switzerland) before returning to London in 1895, when they bought the house in Gloucester Road.--Stelmaris (talk) 15:06, 17 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I think that shows that the article needs a bit of restructuring. I would suggest that the Literary career section should be retitled Later life and literary career. Then details of the various properties, his life and marriage could be worked into that section. I don't see any reason why his marriage warrants a section of its own. Richerman    (talk) 19:02, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091015031443/http://www.endicott-studio.com/rdrm/rrPeterPan2.html to http://www.endicott-studio.com/rdrm/rrPeterPan2.html

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Unreferenced documentary
Someone keeps adding a documentary about Peter Pan to the page but it's unsourced, unreferenced and there's no information as to where or when it's been aired, or its producer. Research shows it has not been broadcast in the UK or US. So, unless the contributor adds a citation showing some notability, I will keep removing it. --Stelmaris (talk) 09:41, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Nationality/citizinship?
In the bio box it has JM as Scottish as his nationality, and British as his citizenship, is that correct according to Wiki? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality#Nationality_versus_citizenship. Halbared (talk) 12:01, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything incorrect about it. WP:UKNATIONALS doesn't present hard-and-fast rules, but JMB was born and raised in Scotland, his early work identified strongly with Scotland, and he identified as a Scot, so it makes sense to state that as his nationality. His citizenship was definitely British (i.e. UK). -Jason A. Quest (talk) 17:42, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Hyperlink on the 'Peter Pan' tab should be removed
In my opinion, the hyperlink on the 'Peter Pan' tab should be removed and should instead be moved to the 'See also' section because in my opinion it looks strange that one tab has a hyperlink on it but the rest don't, making the article lack consistency. Xboxsponge15 (talk) 09:35, 11 September 2020 (UTC)


 * You're right: section headers shouldn't be linked (and the name is already linked way earlier in the article). I also have no idea why it was a separate section from the rest of his bibliography, or why Honours was two sections. Fixed. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 18:47, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Childhood in Bothwell
Somethings not right about his childhood story.

His brother died when they lived in Bothwell (near Hamilton) and he went to Bothwell Academy where his older brother was the headmaster (see this article - https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/bothwells-link-peter-pan-unveiled-2417216).

So he must have lived in Bothwell when he was 6 years old and his family must of moved there from Kirriemuir when younger than that. El dude brother2 (talk) 15:36, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Sorry I just realised the article says his brother David went to Bothwell Academy not JM himself so that makes sense. El dude brother2 (talk) 15:40, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

cousin / nephew / niece / uncle / aunt of chess player?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Winter_(chess_player)

learned from agadmator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L7CdoSDepQ Thewriter006 (talk) 17:57, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Ambiguous wording
"Barrie was involved in the 1909 and 1911 attempts to challenge the censorship of the theatre by the Lord Chamberlain, along with a number of other playwrights." Is anyone else bothered by this, the last sentence of the 8th paragraph in the Literary Career section? It's impossible to tell, from this sentence, whether the Lord Chamberlain was attempting to censor or was, himself, involved in attempts to challenge the censorship. rowley (talk) 04:38, 4 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't have a problem with that sentence. It's clear to me that it was the Lord Chamberlain's censorship of the theatre that Barrie was challenging, along with others. Stelmaris (talk) 07:06, 4 August 2023 (UTC)