Talk:J. M. G. Le Clézio/Archive 1

Untitled
Is the following relevant? "The island came under British rule in 1810, settlers being allowed to retain their property and the use of the French language while claiming the British nationality." Sounds like useless British flag waving. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.132.242.1 (talk) 13:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

A list of works translated into English might be of value 68.198.179.131 (talk) 13:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly!! We really need one! Do one!! 85.1.150.244 (talk) 13:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The New York Times article says that 12 of his books have been translated into English. The Nobel site seems to list all of the English lanmguage ones embedded in an article. I cannot distill the list today; perhaps someone else can? MKohut (talk) 14:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Mauritian should be capitalized in the first line, I think. MKohut (talk) 14:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

He is attractive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.113.150.171 (talk) 15:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Mauritian nationality
I grew up in the Indian Ocean and I've always been told than Mauritian government deoesn't accept double nationality. Could somebody check if he really holds mauritian nationality ?Mitch1981 (talk) 16:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It was added again and I removed it. I think it shouldn't be there, until a source is found which claims he holds Mauritian citizenship. bogdan (talk) 10:08, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Korean sources say that he has double citizenship, but English/French source are indispensable for the claim.--Caspian blue (talk) 13:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I added the reference. http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/oct/10/nobelprize-france --Caspian blue (talk) 13:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The "Mauritius Times" says he is a "fellow citizen"...but one wonders if they confirmed for the present?

http://www.mauritiustimes.com/101008soobarah.htm MKohut (talk) 17:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

"I belong to the Breton nation" http://www.agencebretagnepresse.com/fetch.php?id=12477&title=Le%20Cl%C3%A9zio%20:%20I%20belong%20to%20the%20Breton%20nation. MKohut (talk) 17:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The first source in the main article citations (The Guardian article, one of the world's most reputable newspapers) states that Le Clezio has joint French and Mauritian citizenship. Given that he has joint citizenship, heritage from both nations, and resides in both for part of each year, I see no reason not to describe him as Franco-Mauritian. Irregulargalaxies (talk) 16:57, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Äntligen!
The Wikipedia site traffic for Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio's English-language entry in September 2008, during which it averaged 25-35 views per day, is in sharp contrast to the traffic in early October 2008. Suddenly, lots of people seemed very interested in what was here. Page viewership shot up to 108 views on October 3rd, 85 views on October 4th, 125 views on October 5th, 281 views on October 6th, 147 views on October 7th, and 248 views on October 8th.... The prize was announced early on October 9th and precipitated hundreds of edits (and many tens of thousands of views, though that number isn't in yet).

So who says Nobel committee decisions don't leak?

Until the traffic spike which began six days before the Nobel Prize announcement, it was a very low-traffic article. While page editing can sometimes increase page viewership numbers on a specific day (as the same person renews the page over and over again), no edits whatsoever were made between September 12th and October 9th, the morning of the Nobel announcement. &mdash; AssataShakur (talk) 19:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * There was lots of buzz about a Le Clezio Nobel, so I'm not surprised about the increased traffic. I wouldn't necessarily attribute it to a formal leak.
 * On another note, does anyone know where in the US he taught? Cjs2111 (talk) 20:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Can you provide any links to that buzz? Otherwise, 'buzz' means 'leak'.... (But come to think of it, the Nobel buzz has sometimes been wrong. Remember all the talk about Adonis? Joyce Carol Oates? Do they leak multiple names?)


 * Re "leak". On October 3, 2008--the day the views 'shot up' on wikipedia is the day a Dubai newspaper, The Khaajeel Times

published a Nobel prediction, quoting some Swedish publishers, that it would be Le Clezio. So, either they created some "educated guess' buzz or that seems to be where the leak was leaked. MKohut (talk) 17:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The AP reported that "Le Clezio has taught at universities in Bangkok; Mexico City; Boston; Austin, Texas and Albuquerque, N.M., among other places," citing an academy source. &mdash; AssataShakur (talk) 20:35, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * he taught French at the University of New Mexico. http://www.agencebretagnepresse.com/fetch.php?id=12477&title=Le%20Cl%C3%A9zio%20:%20I%20belong%20to%20the%20Breton%20nation MKohut (talk) 17:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * http://www.santafenewmexican.com/Local%20News/Le-Cl-amp-eacute-zio-has-30-years-of-connections-to-New-Mexico —Preceding unsigned comment added by MKohut (talk • contribs) 12:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Important books
Are there any books of his that are particularly good/important/lauded? It'd be useful for the article, not to mention that having never heard of him before the Nobel, I might want to read one. zafiroblue05 | Talk 05:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The permanent secretary of the academy, Horace Engdahl, recommended Révolutions as a first book, perhaps that would be a good place to start? 194.237.142.7 (talk) 06:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Désert and Le chercheur d'or are considered his two most important accessible novels among French readers. The second one is particularly interesting because it has a lot on the Mauritius part of his background. Those two books would be a good place to start. --Xuxl (talk) 15:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

"The Flood" is an apocalyptic or post-apocalyptic novel. "The Road" underwater, so to very stretchingly allude.MKohut (talk) 17:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I have seen newspaper article references to "over 30 books", "over 40 books" AND "over 50 books" written. ??? Guess we should confirm somehow. MKohut (talk) 17:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Le Clézio has indeed written about Western Sahara. Not only does Désert -- just dug up a copy -- deal with the Ma el-Ainin uprising, and feature a Sahrawi protagonist. He has also written a book with his wife, Jemia, called Gens des nuages, "People of the Clouds." It is about the couple travelling to the lands of the Laaroussiyine tribe, to which she belongs -- apparently she was born in Rabat, and considers herself a Moroccan Sahrawi.from Western Sahara News. MKohut (talk) 23:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * If the French wikipedia site can be presumed to be a complete listing of hsi works, he has published 43 books. MKohut (talk) 15:49, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Requested Move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 21:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I would like to raise a subject which proved sensitive on the french article. Just like many english-language writers, Le Clézio signs his books under his initials J. M. G., and not under his first name Jean-Marie or Jean-Marie Gustave. He is known as J. M. G. Le Clézio, most of the critical studies on his works respect this, most of literary journalists too, and of course the éditions Gallimard. Furthermore, the french WP has a long tradition of what the Guardian calls "a misplaced attempt at familiarity", as you can see on articles about T. S. Eliot, W. H. Auden, V. S. Naipaul, J. M. Coetzee, H. P. Lovecraft, J. G. Ballard, J. K. Rowling, J. R. R. Tolkien and other. WP in english has more precise and (I believe) more serious naming conventions. For these reasons, I think the article should be renamed J. M. G. Le Clézio. Vol de nuit (talk) 17:33, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The official nobel prize page uses his full name, as does the Times and Washington post (UK and US major newspapaers). As most anglophone people had never heard of him until the Nobel, i would suggest that the full name is what he is best known by and should be used for the English wikipedia for clarity and ease of use. I sign my name with just my first initial and surname - that doesn't mean i find it disrespectful if people use my name, it is simply shorter when i have a to sign.Yobmod (talk) 18:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ignorance is not really a good reason to keep this title. Whereas the catalogs of the Congress Library and the British Library might prove me right. And his books are signed J. M. G. in English translation too, , , , etc. Vol de nuit (talk) 18:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * What has ignorance got to do with anything? Neither is "correct", so you cannot be "proved right", it is simply an editorial choice, and the decision should be made according to wikipedia policy of using the most common name. All you have shown is that he prefers to sign with a shortened version of his name, and his publishers agree as it takes up less space on the book spines. I still think most English speakers only know him from the nobel, and the resulting newspaper articles, hence that is the most common name.Yobmod (talk) 18:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I was speaking of ignorance as you were arguing that "most anglophone people had never heard of him until the Nobel" : this leads you to say that the most common form is the form used by the Swedish Academy, and I can't agree with that. The most common name is, I believe, the form used by the author, his publishers (all of them, as Le Seuil, Le Mercure de France and other companies use the same shortened version), the specialists of his works as Martin Bronwen. And I cited this article, which is not isolated. Vol de nuit (talk) 19:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Google news finds 6,000 articles using the full name, compared to 900 using JMG. and what does that tell us about the English language common name?Yobmod (talk) 19:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * But you might know very well that your search counts articles in many different languages, and mostly copies of the Nobel prize press release. Again, I don't think the Swedish Academy should be the only source for the title. Vol de nuit (talk) 19:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I used exactly the same search page you did. Why does it show anything about your point, but is useless for the opposite?Yobmod (talk) 19:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I just suggested that JMG was used in the media. I never started to compare Google hits, which I think is always the worst way to decide about anything on WP. Vol de nuit (talk) 20:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * According to this convention page : "If people published under one or more pen names and/or their own name, the best known of these names is chosen." Le Clézio never published under a different name than J. M. G. Le Clézio. This is exactly the same as for H. G. Wells : "H. G. Wells - as author Herbert George Wells abbreviated both his first and middle names: the abbreviated "artist's name" is used in wikipedia as page name." Vol de nuit (talk) 19:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Discussion

 * Support I think the page should be moved to "J. M. G. Le Clézio" because that is his pen-name,and is a more effective name to use when you would like to search the Internet for more information about this author . Stadt (talk) 19:28, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Works in translation
Since this is the English Wikipedia, we need more information about works in translation and - where possible - date of translation, translator name, publisher and ISBN. 71.191.40.106 (talk) 04:08, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I have just reformatted the tabular display of his Bibliography

Books translated into English  with information about I do not know how to find out which books are presently being translated. Stadt (talk) 14:04, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * works in translation and
 * year of translation,
 * translator name,
 * publisher
 * and in the reference links the ISBNumbers of these books

Requested move2

 * The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

J. M. G. Le Clézio → Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio — The move was closed hastily by the closing admin. It had only one participant (if counted just the toll), so it should have more time and opinion on the naming. — Caspian blue 22:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The result of the discussion was no consensus.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 04:49, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.



Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * Support The full name is internationally known after his winning Nobel Prize, and the abbreviated name is unfamiliar to many people. --Caspian blue 22:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Against Le Clézio's pen name is J. M. G. and WP has clear conventions on that subject : "If people published under one or more pen names and/or their own name, the best known of these names is chosen." Le Clézio never published under a different name than J. M. G. Le Clézio. Reversing the move here would create a stare decisis which would open an opportunity to move H. G. Wells to Herbert George, F. Scott Fitzgerald to Francis Scott, etc. Vol de nuit (talk) 13:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * When he received the Nobel prize, his name is announced "his full name", not his pen name.--14:39, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So what ? WP has very detailed naming conventions, why not follow them ? Have you ever seen a book by "Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio" ? If you want to read him, ask for J. M. G. ... Vol de nuit (talk) 17:31, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What is "so what"? The convention is only for people who are known with their "well-established" pen name. The comparison with other authors does not secure your argument since he is known for his full name in the world. I have his books translated in Korean, and yes, it introduce with his full name if you did not limit your example only to his books translated in English.--Caspian blue 18:29, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course only English versions (and, if there is any doubt, French original versions) should be taken in consideration for an article in English. Could you please reference that fact : "he is known for his full name in the world" ? Vol de nuit (talk) 22:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Support move I agree with Casbian blue (and myself in the discussion above!) Even with disagreements, this move to JMG should not have been done in the first place without more discusion.Yobmod (talk) 18:13, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Against I think the page should be left "J. M. G. Le Clézio"  because that is his pen-name,and is a more effective name to use when you would like to search the Internet for more information about this author . Stadt (talk) 19:28, 30 October 2008 (UTC) Vol de nuit copied my vote ,but didn't think of changing Support to Against. I put in my two cents worth of an opinion four days ago, rather than voted.I have not contributed on Wikipedia since the new request has been opened.
 * Support Use the full name ("Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio"). While the initials are used on most of the covers of his books, this is done as a space-saving measure only; he is almost always refered to in the French-language media by his full name. As an aside, the cluster of initials is just about unpronounceable in French, a language in which there is no practice of refering to persons by their initials in public discourse. --Xuxl (talk) 14:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Added the "support" mark to clarify the Xuxl's position--Caspian blue 17:02, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "he is almost always refered to in the French-language media by his full name" : you are really wrong here. And every specialized sources on Le Clézio (publisher, reading guides, studies, biographies, Magazine littéraire, etc) uses J. M. G. For example this famous book by fr:Gérard de Cortanze. And, by the way, there is plenty of space on book covers, so your space-saving theory is not really convincing. Vol de nuit (talk) 18:08, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Against - as has been argued above, all of Le Clezio's works use the form J.M.G. Le Clezio both in French (his native language) and English (the language of this article) . As Vol de nuit stated, there are clear WP conventions on this - V.S. Naipaul is not primarily listed under Vidiadhar Surajprasad Naipaul, for example. Xuxl and Caspian blue, please support your arguments by showing evidence that his full name is commonly used, especially with regard to his published works. Irregulargalaxies (talk) 15:52, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, then why did newspapers address his "full name" for the announcement of the Nobel prize? --Caspian blue 17:02, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Because the Swedish Academy did. But I don't think the Swedish Academy is mentioned by the naming conventions of WP. Vol de nuit (talk) 20:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This page is 98 kilobytes long.
This page is 98 kilobytes long.Now that this article has grown past 30 kilobytes of readable text, it could be broken up into smaller articles to improve readability and ease of editing.I have started this yesterday and today by giving ech published book by Le Clézio  an editable block in his bibliography. I think it is now appropriate to split this article into smaller, more specific articles.When an article gets long see Article size and  see summary.I suggest spinning off the works Le Clézio that have not been translated into English yet, to sub-articles. However ,I do not think that each of Le Clézio works deserves a page of its own.Maybe a page for all his novels in French, with just those novels translated and published in English on the main Le Clézio page? Stadt (talk) 19:49, 28 November 2008 (UTC) It includes these new lists.:
 * The article is honestly in mess because of the dominant tables compared with other authors' articles. I created List of works by J. M. G. Le Clézio, so we can go back to list only brief note about his works.--Caspian blue 16:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I have created a template "Works by J. M. G. Le Clézio" so that the aricle on Le Clézio can go back to only briefly noting his works.The template is in a hidden state on the main Le Clézio page Template:Works by J. M. G. Le Clézio

Stadt (talk) 19:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * List of Novels by J. M. G. Le Clézio
 * List of Essays by J. M. G. Le Clézio
 * List of Short stories by J. M. G. Le Clézio
 * List of Travel Diaries by J. M. G. Le Clézio
 * List of Collections translated by J. M. G. Le Clézio
 * List of works by J. M. G. Le Clézio
 * List of Books for Children by J. M. G. Le Clézio