Talk:J. Reuben Clark Law School/Archive 1

Start
I've been slowly building this page up over the past six months or so, but it definitely needs a lot of work. Essentially every section has much more information that can be added to it. Any help would be much appreciated. Oscarsonthepond 01:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added a list of distinguished alumni (that I know of, anyway), state and federal judges, distinguished professors, a few pictures, and additional biographical information about the deans. I'm trying to expand the list of state judges and other distinguished alumni. There may be errors, most of what I found came from the internet...

Site overhaul
Thanks to previous editors, the site has a lot of information to use, but it needs to be seriously altered to meet WikiStandards. I've added the appropriate tag to the page and will be working on it myself, but any help is appreciated. --Eustress (talk) 02:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The site needs a History section. --Eustress (talk) 13:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The following site may help in constructing a history section: http://www.martindale.com/xp/legal/Professional_Resources/Law_Schools/schl0101.xml --Eustress (talk) 16:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all of the changes - it definitely is more presentable now. At the same time, though, please be careful when making changes. For example, BYU is not ranked #10 for salaries - it's ranked #10 alphabetically. Also those LSAT/GPA "medians" aren't true medians...they are averages of the 25th/75th percentiles - the only number that law schools actually report are the 25th/75th percentiles. Minor things...I'll go through and change 'em. My question, though is - why take out so much useful information? There were a number of other rankings that many people would consider helpful/relevant that have been removed. Also, there was lots of good info in the main history paragraph that has now been removed - any particular reason why? Perhaps it needs to be moved to a "history" section, but other than that I see no reason to delete info - if anything this page needs more info. Oscarsonthepond (talk)
 * I reverted all your edits because I couldn't tell the minor corrections from just a rehash of what was there previously. There was a lot of copy-and-paste stuff in the article (plagiarism) and quite a few lists, which are discouraged on Wikipedia. I agree we need more info (I have some pictures I'll post later too), but we don't want text for the sake of text—clear, concise, and compelling. (See GA Appalachian School of Law for a good goal to shoot for.) If you find some problematic facts, try tagging them for review first. --Eustress (talk) 04:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with oscar. All those rankings are quite useful to someone who is interested in information about the law school.  People talk about that kind of stuff all the time and want to know about it.  I can understand not wanting it in list form, but why would you completely delete valuable information?  You can be a formatting stickler if you want to, but it's ridiculous to just delete a bunch of info that people (who are actually interested in law school) care a lot about and then to just revert all the changes back because oscar didn't say whether they were minor or not.  In looking at the history it seems like you aren't Mr. perfect when it comes to keeping track of your changes, and even if you were it's just really rude to undo all of the changes that guy made when he was putting back the valuable information that you took down.  I'm not trying to pick a fight; I'm just saying that you should be a little more respectful.  Also, I put the other picture back up as that one (of the sun setting on squaw peak) is a lot more attractive than all the dead trees out front.  Also, I just looked back and it looks like a lot of the reversions you did messed up the facts again.  Those are not "median" values for LSAT and GPA - they are averages of the 25th and 75th percentiles - that is not the same as a median.  Likewise, the Princeton Review did not rank the school #8 - the tax prof blog did, using data from the Princeton Review.  I don't have time to go through and change these, but someone definitely should.  Like oscar said, it's great that you've done so much to help this page out - but you need to be a lot more careful w/ your facts and especially w/ just deleting and changing stuff without double-checking things. 199.107.43.222 (talk)
 * Removing all the changes and going back to the old version wholesale is not the answer here (whoever it is that did that). Please just add the specific things you feel are missing. We need to create a separate article for those lists of alumni and add the info on rankings that seems to be missing. Along with that, it seems the alumni and faculty sections need to be expanded base on the old version of the article (but not as a list!) Wrad (talk) 03:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It wasn't me that removed those, but I can definitely see 218.185.86.226's point (the user that tried to revert everything back). To me it seems somewhat annoying to click on a link to a separate page w/ BYU Law school people, but I can see where it makes things a lot more organized, etc.  However, I just looked at the page that it now links to and not only has it stripped a very large portion of the relevant information, but you also now have to wade through all of the undergrad alumni to try and pick out the law school alumni.  To me this doesn't make any sense at all.  Of course it doesn't have to be in a list format, but all the info that used to be on this page was really *really* good info and was researched by many different people to make up a great list of the various accomplmishments of people who have attended and/or taught at BYU Law.  Now many of those people are gone, and even the ones that are still on the BYU people list have had most of their relevant info stripped.  At some point, someone should go back and restore all of that data and put it into whatever the proper format is. Oscarsonthepond (talk) 06:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the BYU project just started overhauling that page and we were planning to create Law School-only alumni page. We can easily dig into the history and put that info on another page with a nice summary on this page. Wrad (talk) 18:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Main picture
My main picture modification was reverted, so I would like some input from others. I changed it to the West exterior pic (now in the gallery) because it is a nice, straight-on pic of the school. The current pic in use has been modified in Photoshop so that the mountains really stand out, really detracting from the essence of the article. I would like to use the West exterior pic. What say ye? --Eustress (talk) 04:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, I really like the version of the photo that I had up there. The reason the mountains were brighter than the school is because the sun was setting and had already gone down on the law school, which is also why the mountains were so red.  However, I can see where some would feel that the old version was too bright, so I put up a new version that is more natural-looking, you could say.  Does anybody else have any input? Oscarsonthepond (talk) 06:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * They all look very good, but I like what Oscar put up best. Wrad (talk) 18:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Old Ranking info
Here's all the old ranking info. Things already in the article are struck out: Wrad (talk) 18:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * # 1 - Most Competitive Students (free membership required) (Princeton Review)
 * # 2 - Cost-Benefit (ILRG)
 * # 7 - 75th Percentile GPA 2007 (ILRG)
 * # 8 - Princeton Review's Top 50 Law Schools 2008 (unofficial) (TaxProf Blog)
 * # 9 - 25th Percentile GPA 2007 (ILRG)
 * # 11 - Library 2005 (most current) (National Jurist)
 * # 15 - Supreme Court Clerk Placement(Leiter's)
 * # 17 - Overall Selectivity GPA/LSAT 2007
 * # 23 - Employment Rate 2007 (ILRG)
 * # 27 - 75th Percentile LSAT 2007 (ILRG)
 * # 29 - 25th Percentile LSAT 2007 (ILRG)
 * # 44 - America's Best Graduate Schools 2007: Top Law Schools (U.S. News & World Report)

I added most of this back in. Some of it was outdated since 2008 rankings have come in, so I put those instead. The Library thing is a dead link. Wrad (talk) 21:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks good. For future reference, when you're inserting WP:Cite web refs, try to fill in as much info as possible; some just say BYU Law School when they're each different web sites. Thanks. --Eustress (talk) 15:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Great work. There are some serious errors in the rankings section. BYU is not ranked #8 in Prineston Review. I couldn't see what that was refering to. BYU does not rank 10th for salary. That link takes you to a page that lists schools alphabetically, and BYU is tenth on the list. If you sort by salary, though, BYU is not 10th. Brmadsenad (talk) 04:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Alumni and faculty
I also feel that the school has enough notable alumni and faculty to merit a separate Law School People article along with the BYU alumni listing. Wrad (talk) 18:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * List of Brigham Young University alumni only shows 12 JRCLS alumni; List of Brigham Young University faculty only shows 5 current/former notable professors. I don't think separate pages are merited, and each list adequately indicates those who graduated from or work(ed) at the Clark Law School. --Eustress (talk) 15:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What about what is listed in the history of this article? That's what I'm talking about. Wrad (talk) 20:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Not sure what History you're referring to. If you're referring to the edit history of this article, I made sure to add any notable faculty and alumni to the main lists (as noted above) before removing them from this article. If you're referring to the History section of this article, then please elaborate. Thanks. --Eustress (talk) 00:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Those lists are still being developed. I thought there were more than 12 and 5 on this page, but I could be mistaken.  Either way, there are now nearly 5,000 alumni and there are many who have done impressive things, but haven't yet been added to the list.  Pretty much everyone on this list of honored alumni should be added to the list: http://www.byulaw.org/aboutus/honoredalumaward.php  There are also tons of judges that can be found on-line, including a number of Federal judges and Federal/State Appellate judges.  Personally, I think there are plenty of people to merit a separate list, once we go through and find them all.  Also, I think regardless of the number of people, it is nice to have a separate page for the law school for those people that are specifically interested in the law school, and also because you can put lots of info on there that people in the legal community would care about, but that people looking at a general BYU alum page wouldn't care so much about.  I just don't see any real benefit to merging them all with the main BYU alum page, but I do see a number of drawbacks to it.  That's my two cents. Oscarsonthepond (talk) 16:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Revisited
I'm not sure how all this directory/resume alumni stuff crept back onto the page (see WP:NOTDIRECTORY) with mention to several non-notable alumni and unnecessary detail about the notable ones, so I've moved it to the box below. Most of this info is accessible at BYU alumni, but more detail could be shared in this section, although it should be conveyed in prose like other university-article FAs. I will start this effort and invite others to help. --Eustress (talk) 00:53, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

{{hidden|contentstyle=border:1px solid blue; |headerstyle=color:white; background:#AAAAFF; |header= Removed alumni list |content=

Federal Judges

 * Dee Benson, class of 1976
 * Federal Judge, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, 2004-present
 * Chief Federal Judge for the United States District Court for the District of Utah, 1991-present
 * Chief of Staff to Senator Orrin Hatch, 1986-1988
 * Jay S. Bybee, class of 1980
 * Federal Appeals Judge, United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, 2003-present
 * United States Assistant Attorney General, Office of Legal Counsel, United States Justice Department, 2001-2003.
 * Professor, Paul M. Hebert Law Center, Louisiana State University
 * Michael W. Mosman, class of 1984
 * Federal Judge, District of Oregon, 2003-present
 * United States Attorney, District of Oregon, 2001-2003
 * Law Clerk, Supreme Court of the United States, Justice Lewis F. Powell, 1985-1986
 * David Nuffer, class of 1978
 * Federal Judge, District of Utah, United States Court, 1995-present
 * Professor, J. Reuben Clark Law School, Brigham Young University, 2001-present
 * Partner, Snow, Nuffer, Engstrom, Drake, Wade & Smart
 * Clark A. Price, class of 1981
 * Senior Appeals Judge, Navy-Marine Corps Court of Criminal Appeals, Washington, DC
 * Assistant Judge Advocate General, US Navy
 * Norman Randy Smith, class of 1977
 * Federal Appeals Judge, United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, 2007-present
 * District Judge, Sixth Judicial District of Idaho, 1995-2007
 * Adjunct Professor, Boise State University and Idaho State University, 1979-present
 * Assistant General Counsel, J.R. Simplot Company, 1977-1981
 * Paul M. Warner, class of 1973
 * Federal Judge, District of Utah, United States Court, 2005-present
 * United States Attorney, District of Utah, 1998-2005
 * Colonel, Judge Advocate General, Utah Army National Guard, 1979-present
 * Chief, Criminal Division, United States Attorney's Office, District of Utah, 1989-
 * Chief, Litigation Division, Officer of the Attorney General, Utah, 1982-1989
 * Judge Advocate General, United States Navy, 1973-1979

Supreme Court Clerks



 * Monte Stewart, class of 1976, Chief Justice Warren E. Burger 1977-1978
 * Eric G. Anderson, class of 1977, Justice Lewis Franklin Powell, Jr. 1978-1979
 * Kevin J. Worthen, class of 1982, Justice Byron White 1983-1984
 * Michael W. Mosman, class of 1984, Justice Lewis Franklin Powell, Jr. 1985-1986
 * Von G. Keetch, class of 1987, Chief Justice Warren E. Burger & Antonin Scalia 1989-1990
 * Denise Posse-Blanco Lindberg, class of 1988, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor 1990-1991
 * Karl M. Tilleman, class of 1990, Chief Justice Warren E. Burger & Clarence Thomas 1992-1993
 * Stephen M. Sargent, class of 1993, Chief Justice William Rehnquist 1994-1995
 * Jay T. Jorgensen, class of 1997, Chief Justice William Rehnquist 1999-2000
 * Hannah Clayson Smith, class of 2001, Justice Samuel Alito 2/2006-7/2006
 * Michael S. Lee, class of 1997, Justice Samuel Alito 2006-
 * David H. Moore, class of 1996, Justice Samuel Alito 2007-

Other Notable Alumni
}}
 * Eric G. Andersen, class of 1977
 * Professor, College of Law, University of Iowa, 1984-present
 * Associate Attorney, Vinson & Elkins, DC & London, 1979-1984
 * Clerk, Associate Justice Lewis F. Powell, Jr., United States Supreme Court, 1978-1979
 * Clerk, Judge J. Clifford Wallace, United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, 1977-1978
 * David Bradford, class of
 * Partner, Greenberg Traurig, 1997-(unknown)
 * Senior Vice President and General Counsel, Novell, Inc.
 * General Counsel, Dynix Corporation
 * Chris Cannon, class of 1980
 * Congressman, 3rd District of Utah, United States House of Representatives, 1997-present
 * President, Cannon Industries, a venture capital firm, and Geneva Steel, 1987-unknown
 * Solicitor, United States Department of the Interior, 1983-1986
 * Joseph A. Cannon, class of 1977 (1949-present)
 * Managing Editor, Deseret Morning News, 2006-present
 * Chairman, Utah Republican Party, 2002-2006
 * Assistant Administrator, Environmental Protection Agency, 1983-1985
 * Christopher B. Chaney, class of 1992
 * Deputy Director, US Department of the Interior, Bureau of Indian Affairs, 2005-present
 * Partner, Parr, Waddoups, & Brown
 * Kathleen Clark
 * Director, United States Bureau of Land Management, 2001-2006
 * Executive Director, Utah Department of Natural Resources, 1998-2001
 * Carolyn Colton, class of 1981
 * Vice President & Assistant General Counsel, Marriott International, Inc.
 * Ralph L. Dewnup, class of 1977
 * President, Dewsnup, King & Olsen, Attorneys at Law, Salt Lake City, 1997-present
 * Lecturer & Adjunct Professor, J. Reuben Clark Law School, Brigham Young University, 1995-1998
 * Michael R. Fordham, class of 1996
 * Vice President and Assistant General Counsel, JP Morgan Chase, New York, NY
 * Jay T. Jorgensen, class of 1997
 * Partner, Sidley Austin, Washington, DC, 2000-present
 * Clerk, Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, United States Supreme Court, 1999-2000
 * Clerk, Judge Samuel A. Alito, Jr., US Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, 1998-1999
 * Von G. Keetch, class of 1987
 * Partner, Board of Directors, Kirton & McConkie
 * Chairman, Utah Appellate Court Nominating Commission, 2005-present
 * Delegate, National Coalition on the Free Exercise of Religion
 * Clerk, Chief Justice Warren Burger and Associate Justice Antonin Scalia, United States Supreme Court, 1989-1990
 * Clerk, Judge George C. Pratt, United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, New York City, 1988-1989
 * William H. Orton, class of 1979
 * Board of Directors, Pitney Bowes Bank, 2003-present
 * Partner, Buckland Orton LLC, Salt Lake City, 2000-present
 * Congressman, 3rd District of Utah, United States House of Representatives, 1991-1997
 * Richard D. Parry, class of 1980
 * Associate General Counsel, Vice President of the Legal Department, Senior Vice President & General Counsel, Washington Group International, 2001-present
 * United States Attorney, District of Utah, 1993-1993
 * Associate Counsel to the United States Senate Select or special committee (United States) on the "Iran-Contra" Affair, 1987
 * Rory Reid, class of 1988 (Unknown-Present)
 * Chairman of the Clark County Commission, 2002-present
 * Chairman of the Nevada State Democratic Party, Unknown-Unknown
 * Stephen M. Sargent, class of 1993
 * Partner, Parr Waddoups, Salt Lake City, 1995-present
 * Clerk, Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, United States Supreme Court, 1994-1995
 * Clerk, Judge Deanell Reece Tacha, U.S. Court of Appeals for Tenth Circuit, 1993-1994
 * Linden Goodrich Slaugh, class of 1983
 * Vice President & Director, International Tax Compliance, American Express, New York, NY
 * John M. Smith, class of 2001
 * Associate Counsel to the President of the United States, White House, Washington, DC
 * Associate, Covington & Burling, Washington, D.C.
 * Clerk, Judge Alito, 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals
 * Monte N. Stewart, M.St., Oxford, class of 1976 (Unknown-Present)
 * President, Marriage Law Foundation, 2004-present
 * Special Assistant Attorney General, Counsel to the Governor, State of Utah, 2001-2003
 * Professor, J. Reuben Clark Law School, 1998-1999
 * United States Attorney, District of Nevada, 1992-1993
 * Partner, Wright & Stewart, Las Vegas, Nevada, 1981-1992
 * Clerk, Chief Justice Warren E. Burger, United States Supreme Court, 1977-1978
 * Monte J. Stiles, class of 1982
 * Director, Organized Crime & Drug Enforcement Task Force, United States Attorney's Office, District of Idaho, 1987-present
 * Special Counsel, Director of the Executive Office for United States Attorneys, US Department of Justice, Washington, DC, 1995
 * Prosecutor, Ada County Prosecutor's Office, 1982-1987
 * M. Gay Taylor, class of 1980
 * General Counsel, Utah State Legislature, 1985-present
 * Associate General Counsel, Utah State Legislature, 1983-1985
 * Brett Tolman, class of 1998
 * United States Attorney, District of Utah, 2006-present
 * Counsel, Senate Judiciary Committee, 2005-2006
 * Assistant United States Attorney, District of Utah, 2000-2003
 * Clerk, Federal Judge Dee Benson, 1998-2000
 * David Westergard, class of 1988
 * Chief Counsel, Patent Litigation & Licensing, Micron Technology, Inc.
 * Steve Young, class of 1994
 * Professional NFL Quarterback, San Francisco 49ers and Tampa Bay Buccaneers
 * NFL Most Valuable Player, 1992 & 1994; Most Valuable Player, Super Bowl XXIX
 * ESPN Football Analyst
 * As has been mentioned in the edit comments, the alumni list for Brigham Young University (generally) does not include most of the alumni in the list that I have created that specifically details graduates of the J. Reuben Clark Law School. Moreover, it is not appropriate to link to a list of alumni for the entire university - people will want to see alumni of the law school. The Harvard Law page includes a separate page for Harvard Law alumni, and I would be open to creating a separate page for BYU Law alumni, but deleting this information and simply linking to the general BYU alumni page is inadequate.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.222.107 (talk) 06:17, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, we can compromise on this. We can't include the list on this article because it's an article, not a list (consult WP:L and WP:Article), so I created a list dedicated to JRCLS alumni. --Eustress (talk) 06:26, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * ANON above continues to revert rather than discuss and compromise and was blocked (see diff), so Toddst1 restored to compromised version. --Eustress (talk) 06:50, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Job Placement
The information shown is for the 2008 graduating class, which was right before the Financial Meltdown. What has happened in the last four years?John Paul Parks (talk) 02:20, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

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