Talk:JJ Redick/Archive 1

Untitled
from VfD:

"J.J. Redick (born June 24, 1984, in Cookeville, Tennessee as Jonathan Clay Redick) is a collegiate Men's basketball player in the NCAA. He attended Cave Spring High School in Roanoke, Virginia, where he was selected as the recepient Virginia's 2002 Mr. Basketball award and was a McDonald's All-American." He does not seem too notable. --Ld 22:20, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Comment I might have been wrong in my initial assessment. There seems to be a lot of links on Google including a marijuana incident--Ld 00:24, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This player is Co-Captain of a collegiate basketball team that has been a consistent Top 10 finisher in national rankings by the Associated Press (including this year), and has seen great success as one of the offensive stalworts on a team that went to the Final Four (semi-finals) of the most publicized NCAA athletic tournament of the calendar year (March Madness 2004). The player is also on pace to set a record for highest free throw percentage in college basketball history, spanning over 100 years of competition. He was the recipient of prestigious awards during his high school career, that only are given to a miniscule percentage of basketball players in the high school system of the United States. I strongly believe that the article should remain. -- Scott R. 23:25, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) definitely keep Xpendersx 14:00, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep new article. Great rewrite!! - Lucky 6.9 00:13, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep with applause. Samaritan 00:52, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep new article. Gwimpey 05:01, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)
 * Well now, keep, of course. &mdash;[[en:RaD Man|RaD Man (talk)]] 07:21, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep this new article. [[User:GRider|GRider\talk]] 16:55, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, as much as it pains me. For the record, I'm speaking as a Wikipedian, not as a student at another ACC school. :) --PacknCanes 18:15, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

end moved discussion

There appears to be dispute about JJ's birthplace. usabasketball.com sites Cookeville, TN as his birthplace and espn.com has Roanoke -- his undisputed "hometown" -- as his birthplace. I tend to think that unless a random wikipedian made up Cookeville and it was propagated across the internet, that is probably the right answer and ESPN is probably just confused.

I would go with USA Basketball. ESPN's sources are all second-hand at best.

ESPN interviewed Redick recently and confirmed that he was alive when his family moved from Cookeville to Roanoke, so Roanoke is definitely NOT his birthplace. UnnotableWorldFigure 16:43, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Poetry
Are all of those poems necessary? Maybe an example of one could be included, but I think the mere mention that Reddick had poems published in SI would be sufficient. BMetts 00:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I removed the poems until can be shown that JJ has released them as public domain; it's possible that even Sports Illustrated has rights to them. If it is shown they are PD, some excerpts are enough; just because Shakespeare's works are PD now doesn't mean his sonnets are on his article.

The poetry should not be up there, period. 10 years from now, no one will care, and for now it is only relevant when people want ammunition to make fun of Redick and Duke.

Marijuana
If someone would like to add an NPOV, sourced discussion of the pot incident, I think it would be a welcome addition to the article. However, I will continue to delete any biased nonsense on the subject. --djrobgordon 06:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Conversely, I don't believe it's acceptable to delete all mention of the incident. An anonymous user deleted an external link to a story in the Duke University paper about the subject. I'm going to put this link back in. If the objection is to the specific source, rather than to the story in general, I'd suggest the editor find a story from AP, ESPN, etc. and link that instead. Actually, if the only objection is the source, leave me a note here and I'd be happen to find another myself. I've been watching this article for less than 24 hours, and I've already had to revert the edits of four separate people. For now I'm trying to follow Assume good faith. --djrobgordon 01:16, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Fan's Reaction
My gut tells me to kill this section, but I've been reverting so much vandalism and bias on this page lately that it's possible I'm being reactionary. I don't doubt the truth of the content. I found a source on the female fans (a Boston Globe article) and I could probably find one concerning the Maryland fans. My problem is that none of this seems notable to me. The essence of this section is that Duke fans love him and opponents' fans hate him. How is that different from any other star player in a team sport? If this is notable, we should add a section to Michael Jordan saying that he was booed at away games (yes, that would violate WP:POINT; no, I'm not actually advocating it). Is hatred of Redick really so far above that of other star players that it's become encyclopedic? Anyone want to convince me to keep this section? --djrobgordon 05:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to disagree partially with this move. It certainly is difficult to quantify how hated he is. I agree with that. However, certain incidents like the incident at Maryland are relevant because it's so rare. How many players have incited a reaction like that? Perhaps a there could be a compromise if people are still uncomfortable with placing that kind of info here with the compromise being a Wikipedia site dedicated to Maryland Terrapin Basketball fans. You could write a book about their behavior. :) 144.126.161.43 03:20, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I was at the ACC tournament last year and it might be fair to say, without hyperbole, that this is the most hated player EVER in college basketball. If there was some way to quantify the average level of hate per fan, and the number of fans who know who he is, it would be an interesting note to include on the site. However I agree that it is stupid to pick out a couple incidents like "F U JJ chants" and one guy holding up a sign about his sister.


 * One thought I have is that there is a section in Art Chansky's book, "Blue Blood" that discusses how Duke went to Charlotte for the first two rounds of the NCAA tournament in 2005 and commented that the program as a whole was suddenly on the receiving end of an unprecedented level of hatred from fans and even the community. If someone were to incorporate mention of that and articles like that from the web it might be worth posting on the site. And there is NO question that while the Duke program is hated as a whole, Redick is THE epicenter of the hatred.


 * I think what I'm going to do is take out the section as of now, with the understanding that I'll actively look for any sources that confirm fan hatred of Redick is of notable proportions. In terms of this section, I'd like to adhere closely to the third policy point of WP:V: The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it. --djrobgordon 07:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, I think the info from the book you mentioned would make a good addition to the athletics section of Duke University. --djrobgordon 07:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Speak of the devil. ESPN.com just published a story this morning with the headline: "The Most Hated Player in America." I'll see what I can take from it. --djrobgordon 17:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I've posted some thoughts on this below, under a fresh header. Basically, opposing fan reaction is notable in Redick's extremely case.   Starry Eyes  12:08, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Scoring - 30pt discrepancy
At least one person is systematically stealing 30 pts from JJ's point total every time he does an edit. I assume this is because espn.com is guilty of the same infraction. JJ did NOT sit out the ACC title game vs NC State in 2003 -- rather he was the hero of the game with a 30 point performance.
 * ESPN's error is just bizarre. I've attached a link to his player card with a warning explaining the discrepancy.  Hopefully that'll deter future such action.  Starry Eyes  23:29, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

(removed "alumni/alumnus note") - Looks like we're probably in the clear on JJ's point total. At this point I would be *amazed* if somebody came in and took 30 points away from him considering how much press his total is getting. UnnotableWorldFigure 08:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Recently edited in a discrepancy to Redick's breaking of Dickie Hemric's record, stating rule variation in era of play, but perhaps a disgruntled Duke fan has taken it out. The fact that Dickie didn't play with a 3-point line, no matter how many he took or didn't take, makes his era of basketball a lot different from Redick's. J.J.'s career stats show 424 three-pointers (checked with ESPN to validate that). If you hypothesize that he would've shot those as two-point jump shots, his total falls somewhere in the 2,100-2,200 range. I didn't bother to take the time to calculate fouls off 3balls, but surely this would have at least a minor effect on that total, as well.

I removed it. The three-point line is here to stay -- the record books going forward are not based on what the rules of basketball were in the 1950s. We could get into all sorts of debates over rules of basketball, level of competition, number of games played, etc. Would you rather have the same debate on every page about any player that sets a scoring record, or just move it offline to another page that discusses how the game has evolved? UnnotableWorldFigure 09:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Appeal to include opposing fan reaction
Duke fans love him--that's nothing new, and so blatantly obvious that it's not worth mention. ("Fans love their team's superstar player" - some headline, huh?) However, I do think the opposing fans' reaction to Redick is notable and worthy of inclusion. Never, in a lifetime of watching sports, have I seen a player inspire such virulent hatred from opposing fans who wasn't either a violent criminal, a dirty thug who injured one of that team's players in deliberate contact, or a former player for that team who parted under bitter circumstances. Beyond the mere fact that he's a household-name superstar on one of the country's premier programs who is fawned over by the national sports media (particularly the eminently irritating Dick Vitale), there are three obvious reasons for this: (1) When playing, he has a cocky aspect of manner. (2) He seems not to notice any invective hurled at him, so opposing fans try harder and harder to come up with some egregiously offensive way to perturb him. (3) This is a rather touchy subject, so I'll put it as tactfully as possible: he looks like a "normal guy", maybe the kid who sits in the back of your Sociology class or something. People think he has no business being on a basketball court because he doesn't look the part. He looks just like they do, which further fuels their resentment. If he looked more like the conventional American basketball superstar, shall we politely say, people wouldn't hate him nearly as much.

If it's media you want, just check out these articles: ESPN - Stop hating on J.J. Redick! (mentions the infamous "sister sign"), MSN - 13 reasons Redick deserves respect (discusses in detail the hatred JJ faces), and you'll find many more from less visible outlets via Google.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. I do think it's worthy of a paragraph or two towards the end of the article. What do other people think? Starry Eyes 12:08, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I wrote the note above re: Blue Blood. I think it is notable -- he is clearly the most hated player in college basketball, although interestingly enough, this might be LESS true than it was a year ago. UnnotableWorldFigure 08:50, 22 February 2006 (UTC) This message is to Blue Blood or whatever!!! go suck a nut n stop sayin shit people are only hating on j.j. because they r sooooo jealous and its starting to piss me off j.j. has everything and doesnt need to be listening to u dumb jerks who dont have shit n all u haterz do iz sit on yo lazy ass's n talk smack about the hottest guy in the whole intire world so get a life!!!!!!!!!! cuz u allllll kno J.J. is the (SHIT)!!!! and this goes to the message above me and to all the effin haters of j.j. Redick!

He gets oddly booed in Charlotte during an NBA playoff game long after he graduated, despite playing a very small role. I had no idea what is going on with that. I would have though wikipedia would have info on that. The level of hate for this guy is just weird, and encyclopedic. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/os-bianchi-magic-jj-redick-20100425,0,656574.column

Cleanup?
Well, the career came to a sad end for those of us who were not among the "haters". I've gone ahead and added up all the figures and done the bookkeeping for what Redick did and didn't accomplish in college in terms of individual statistics (his team statistics are not particularly interesting as Duke 2003-06 did not really distinguish themselves as much more or less accomplished than the previous 6 Duke teams). The last thing to wait for (in the next few days) is the result of the Wooden and Naismith awards, but that won't interfere much with the rest of the article. There is a lot of redundancy in the article -- do any of the OCD types out there wanna clean it up? I'd attempt to clean the article up but I'm sure it would still look bad when I got done with it. UnnotableWorldFigure 08:59, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

What happened to all the information in the High School section??? There were a lot of items about Redick's McDonald's all american game, and his high school career. what gives? kevuva 16:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Something isn't right
where is he from tennesee or virginia. if it is both we should make sure to show when he moved or why. CBPRS 12:43, 29 March 2006(UTC)

'a truely wonderful person'??? damn, i think somebody should add a citation about that--Amdamen 02:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The DUI area
I said "The Jim Rome Show" because that is where I heard of the charge, and there was no internet source at the time I heard it. The time was 12:10 EST. Soxrock 16:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed protest
I heard that you removed my article on some rumors that JJ Redick might be gay. Why did you do this? Falconleaf 02:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not the one who removed it, but I imagine it was done because the rumors were not backed up by verifiable, non-trivial sources. --djrobgordon 03:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed it for that very reason. You used a blog entry, http://underscorebleach.net/jotsheet/2005/03/dick-vitale-and-jj-redick, to back up your claims. The entry itself contains no discussion on Redick's sexual orientation, and even if it did, it wouldn't be a suitable source. I'm assuming your evidence is to be found somewhere in the blog entry's comments, which certainly aren't suitable evidence. Punctured Bicycle 19:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I googled "JJ Redick and gay" in the same search bar, and came across this article that may bring back the gay rumors of JJ Redick back.

Removed Section
I removed a paragraph from the "Legal Issues" section: In November of 2006, it was revealed that Redick performed oral sex on an unidentified 14-year old male in the back of a white van in his home town of Cookeville, TN while. Charges by the boys family were dropped. It is suspected the Redick's lawyer negotiated a private settlement. This is a blatant violation of WP:BLP. If this is true, you need to SOURCE IT! PTO 02:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

NBA Career
Just thought I'd leave an explanation, since I just cut about two thirds of this section. Everything I took out was either amateur analysis without citations (original research) or playground insults. I realize the section's too short now, but better to have too little information than biased opinion. --djrobgordon 05:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I added a section about the news regarding JJ's desire for a trade. I've listed two separate ESPN sources. --kevuva 13:25, 05 February 2008 (UTC)

I added an update in regards to the 2008-2009 NBA season and Redick's lack of playing time. I've listed Florida Today as the source. I'm wondering if the paragraph just before my most recent update should be removed or not. It discusses things that happened in 2003 and 2005, which really don't have anything to do with his nba career. Would someone like to move these items to another location?. --kevuva 12:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Abortion contract
Why no mention of this? He had his then-girlfriend sign a contract stating she would get an abortion if he impregnated her. Thismightbezach (talk) 00:27, 21 May 2014 (UTC)


 * This came up before - and the only remotely-reliable source for it merely reported it as an allegation, rather than asserting that it was true. In any case, per WP:BLP policy, articles about living persons "must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy" - and gossip about unenforceable 'contracts' that may possibly have existed between private individuals doesn't belong in articles. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:04, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Add Philadelphia 76er info
Redick has been officially announced by the club and signed. Thus needing the info to be changed in the Infobox and article. Since page is restricted please whoever has access change the info to show this as soon a possible. Redick will wear No. 17 (As announced via Sixers social medias). Thanks. DeAllenWeten (talk) 00:15, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

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Racist remarks
I added the contents back, modified a few sources  and changed the section heading to "racist remarks".

My rationale:

It's not a minor incident. Saying "c--ks" to Chinese people is comparable to saying "Ni--er" to black people. See Donald Sterling - an incident like this is not minor. IMO the Sterling incident even passes WP:EVENT. Note that WP:EVENT is applicable to a standalone article, which means it deserves a section in Donald Sterling. Though I'm not sure whether the Redick incident will pass WP:EVENT in the future to qualify for a standalone article per WP:CRYSTAL, it should deserve a section here in J. J. Redick.

--Did you know... that you can talk to Dingruogu? 18:12, 21 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Everything about this is so non-neutral, you're using a hilariously poor machine translation of Chinese in your text, come on: "word of gross insult aroused great antipathy" is just not English. You don't know Redick's mens rea so you can't say he said a "racist remark" -- that's a prima facie and obvious BLP vio right there, must be take down immediately. The articles you cite yourself phrase it "appeared to say" or "what may be". He said a syllable that sounded like something else, you can't say in a BLP he made a racist remark, unlike Sterling who was a racist. Lastly your sources say nothing about the outrage in China. Just a listicle of random non-notables on twitter? (2nd item). The first was just that it happened and the third was his apology. No source for your claim about the great antipathy or anything. Clear violation of numerous policies, Undue, BLP, NotNews, NNPOV, etc etc. And you're combative attitude doesn't help. Lastly, the BRD steps ought to be taken in order. JesseRafe (talk) 18:29, 21 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree your combative attitude doesn't help, but I made a few edits to make it better - I was about to do so when you assumed I was socket puppet of another user and reverted me. Could you list your opinions (preferably with # signs) or be bold to rewrite it with your excellent English?--Did you know... that you can talk to Dingruogu? 18:46, 21 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I never assumed you were a sockpuppet, please discuss the edits and not the editors and remember to be civil. If anything your wanton leaps of logic and accusation are tied to the same reason you are SPAing about this minor incident, you simply like accusing people of things. I do not have to list my opinions, I have to (and have) pointed to numerous policies supporting the removal of the text. And I already did rewrite it once, that's the version you reverted to. Yet, you continue to make this about me for some reason instead of addressing the facts: Nowhere in any of those sources was there any outrage mentioned, nor can the article say in Wikipedia's voice that Redick said anything racist. Simply not allowed here, hence why I removed it -- and what I said I was doing in the edit summary. You spent your edit summaries to basically express the thought "I don't have to come to the talk page, just let me revert it without explanation" which is why I called you combative because you clearly were being so. JesseRafe (talk) 19:14, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Diff. Search for "sock" in this diff.--Did you know... that you can talk to Dingruogu? 19:25, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Please discuss the edits and not the editors. As clearly stated "I never assumed you were a sockpuppet" and that remains so. Accusing me of it does not help your case. You said I assumed such when I reverted you, which you cannot know, just as you cannot know whether Redick intended any racist meaning in his unfortunate fumble, yet your 'proof" is me saying you may be one over an hour after you allege I had already made that assumption as clearly seen by the timestamps. Lastly, once again this is another example of you taking the time to demonstrate your combative attitude and attack another editor rather than constructively respond to the specific problems with the text in the article. JesseRafe (talk) 19:31, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Which are, for the third or fourth time: The article can't say "He used the racist slur "Chink"" because he didn't. Full stop. Any mention would need to say "alleged" or "sounded like the slur" or something to that effect. Also "±His word of insult sparked outrage." is both terrible writing and untrue or at least misleading, as there is no outrage in either of those refs, and the insistence of saying he said something racist would be a BLP vio because it implies an intent. What happened neutrally is he said something that sounded homophonous. JesseRafe (talk) 19:33, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * He used the racist slur "Chink" - SB Nation said so, but I don't mind if it is changed to "alleged" or "sounded like the slur".
 * His word of insult sparked outrage - which part of the sentence do you disagree with? SB Nation said the word "outrage".
 * --Did you know... that you can talk to Dingruogu? 19:41, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Just personally passing through with a third party opinion - my understanding of this dispute is that the conflict seems to stem almost entirely around how the text was written, not what the text was about. I personally agree with Dingruogu's initial rationale, and would support a slightly copy-edited version (edited for clarity and inclusion of words like "alleged" or etc) be added to the article. -- HunterM267  ❯  talk  21:17, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

How about, as a single two-sentence paragraph in the 2017-18 season section, "Redick was supposed to appear in an NBA-sponsored video wishing fans a happy Chinese New Year on February 18, 2018, however he misspoke in his take, causing some to interpret his pronunciation as a slur, and he was edited out of the released video. Redick since apologized for the misunderstanding." A neutral retelling of what happened. No blogs or listicles of random people's tweets should be used as references. The Post and Deadspin articles are RS enough. If the Sixers season is not the place for it (floating on its own in the NBA career makes no sense), then the section or subsection should be titled something bromide like "Controversy" which is a common section heading across the encyclopedia. Calling Redick a racist in the voice of the encyclopedia, especially in the name of the section is a clear BLP violation. JesseRafe (talk) 21:46, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Surely we just need to reflect what the reliable sources say about the incident, without elaboration and embelishment? No conclusions should be drawn in Wikipedia's voice, they should be in the sources? Neiltonks (talk) 22:48, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

How about the revision I've just made: added "allegedly", removed "racist" and moved to an individual "Controversy" section. Everything is supported by RS.--Did you know... that you can talk to Dingruogu? 09:13, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I integrated it into the 76ers section, as dedicated controversy sections are generally not a good idea per WP:CRITS, esp. when this seems more like a news blip.—Bagumba (talk) 09:16, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Podcasting section
I'm at 2RR and noticing a few problems that are being repeatedly reinserted into the article, especially in the Podcasting section. I'm starting this talk page discussion to encourage discussion of the issues. Here are a few of the issues.


 * Yahoo! Sports should use uppercase for the Y and the first S.
 * "JJ is the first active professional athlete to host a podcast." - I don't see where the first two sources support this, and the third (the Sports Business Journal blog) actually explains that it's not true. It was A. J. Hawk.
 * "July of 2017 he then joined Uninterrupted after doing 40 episodes." - grammar issues; who were the 40 episodes with?
 * "Redick continued the podcast on The Ringer. The Ringer in 2017." - redundancy, sentence fragment
 * The last paragraph is just a mess. Unclear chronology, overlinking, caps issues.

Thanks. Larry Hockett (Talk) 05:57, 24 June 2022 (UTC)