Talk:Jaca Navarra

Points for discussion
Montana made 3 suggestions in various ways, which I'm collecting here.
 * 'autochthonous': "native" or "indigenous" might be a better word choice, but for now, wikilinking
 * the telephone directory of names for this horse: may want to note that this has something to do with geography or other relevance
 * derivation of 'jaca': thus literally translates "hack"? If so, may want to say this and link to hack (horse) may want to note that in spite of word origin, there no apparent connection via bloodlines to the Hackney horse or Hackney pony, however

My comment: (1) used the same word as the source, hoping to avoid unintentionally changing meaning. It's a good clear word, Greek is a good language. In your opinion, what is there that would make the others better?

(2) Why not? But I think that would have to be done by the person who knows those places, which isn't me (well, I've heard of Navarre and Pamplona of course, but don't recognise all the others). Like the idea of linking to the Hackney.

(3) I think that's a very risky assumption, as derivation and meaning can so often be light-years apart (e.g., does pony mean foal? no!; does it derive from a word meaning foal? yes!; are 'hack' and 'hackney' synonymous?). If I've read the dictionary definition right, jaca is a horse under 1.50 m; English has no word for that. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:17, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * (1)I did suggest "native", "indigenous" above, or even landrace. My reasoning is pretty much just readability. I'm a fan of Orwell's "Politics and the English Language," if a simpler word can be used to convey the same concept, it is not a bad thing. While I'm all for building vocabulary and word power, we have a lot of horse-crazy 10 year old girls who read these horse breed articles (who often feel the need to add, "MY PONY IS NAMED SUSIE AND SHE IS BYOOTIFULL!!!!!" sigh), and so I tend to like the lead section to read in plain English.  It's not a MOS issue, though, this is just my own view, hence why only a comment and not an edit.  As for sourcing, there is a bit of wiggle room between copying too much, citing properly and going off into OR land.  If the Spanish used "autochthonous", this doesn't mean it is the "proper" word, only that the translator wanted to use that word. Just like the site translations seem to say some of these breeds are "rustic," which I am guessing is what the rest of the English-speaking horse world would call "primitive".  Likewise many European languages use the term "race" for horse breeds, while in English we generally say "breed."  So my point is that we don't have to slavishly copy the source material when there is a way to say the same thing better.  But on this one, do as you wish, I linked the word to the wiktionary definition so if it stays, at least the 10-year olds can click the link and improve their vocabulary.  I don't think I hit all the articles where it's used, though, perhaps you may want to continue to link it in the rest.   Montanabw (talk) 19:45, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, I am the translator; yes, I wanted to use that word. I don't know why it needs to be discussed, though. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:22, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * (2) Just an idea, if no source, probably OR, but given that you provide etymology for "jaca," it seemed a nice tie-in.   In all cases, we probably need footnotes, as they sit, one could ask, "why do we care about all these names?"  Now if it's because if you read six books you have six different names, that's a good reason to list them.  But may help to add some transition verbiage.  Not really a huge deal at this point, but a thought for later.  Montanabw (talk) 19:45, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * We care about the names because they will show up in a search, allowing people to find the article, right? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:22, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * (3)   If that's the literal modern definition of "jaca" (i.e. little horse under 150 cm by FEI or 14.3 hands?) then that could be added as an intro sentence to the "jaca" paragraph.  Like "pony/foal" it might be good to point out that no, the jaca is no relation to the hackney (to avoid a cite tag, sourcing to something obvious in any article that says "the Jaca Navarra is native to Spain"-- or whatever).  I think the generic concept of a "hack" horse did also derive from Hackney, but you are right that absent a source drawing that connection, we are  probably going into OR territory.  Oh, FYI, as to "English has no word for that," we do:  "pony!" --IF you grant that one FEI definition of a pony IS up to 150 cm with shoes on... (grin) But seriously, the Aussies use "galloway" for horses 14.0-15.0h, and ponies there are under 14h.  So anyway, if "jaca" is a horse that's bigger than a pony but smaller than average, or whatever, might help to note that.   Montanabw (talk) 19:45, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Part of edit comment by montanabw, moved here for discussion:

I wasn't "against", I was just proposing

 * I'm sorry, that is a total misunderstanding, I did not intend to imply that that you were opposing anything, just that you had left hidden text against (in the sense of adjacent to, or, dammit, against) various words. Your comments were not obviously opposing anything, it did not occur to me that that might be misconstrued. That said, I find that I need to repeat what I have mentioned before: it is in this wiki considered, at the very least, extremely discourteous to edit another user's comments on any talk page but your own. There's probably a policy about it somewhere. I really do not want to find myself needing to mention it a third time. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:22, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Errr... calm down guys. Autochthonous is more common when describing human cultures rather than biological populations, I'd personally favour "indegenous" or "native". Akerbeltz (talk) 22:03, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * And I didn't say "against", so was refractoring my OWN hidden text which appeared to have been misquoted by JLAN. In the USA, we don't say "against" to mean "next to" or "adjacent to."  In fact, I'm not even sure how common this is in the UK.    Montanabw (talk) 22:21, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

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