Talk:Jack Aubrey

List of ships
Added list of ships commanded - references etc to come soon Duncan 21:40, 16 June 2007 (UTC) Are the page numbers in listed in Post Captain and M&C correct? Nate 15 Dec 2009--137.28.55.57 (talk) 07:25, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Jonathan or Jack?
Isn't Aubrey's name actually Jonathan? I seem to remember that Jack is just his nickname, and that he signed his letters "Jonathan" or "Jon."? Akerkhof 04:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, he signed his letters "Jno Aubrey", which I believe is an archaic abbreviation for Jonathon. Here is an example:image MdTrFn 18:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * In the 19th century, Jno is an abbreviation for John. It seems odd to need an abbreviation for so short a name, but that was the fashion. I base my remark on a man born 1860, birth certificate shows John as do other legal documents, but his signature was invariably and clearly Jno. There is no instance in the books where his name is spelled out as Jonathan, so he is John or Jack. Unfortunately, many of the readers of audio books think his signature to a letter, Jno in text, should be read out as Jonathan, which is confusing. --Prairieplant (talk) 03:51, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Knighthood?
You might want to check, but I don't think Aubrey was knighted. Unless it takes place in the book "21", which I have yet to read. Shadowmane20 19:21, 10 November 2007 (EST)

Jack is described as having a "Bath ribbon" (Order of the Bath) when he's in full dress/portrait as of Desolation Island. Presumably O'Brian meant for him to have been knighted for his role in the Mauritius Campaign (like the historical Josias Rowley) but he didn't want everyone calling Jack "Sir Jack". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.34.14 (talk) 02:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure but I think its possible to be decorated with the Bath ribbon without earning the title of "Sir". Had Jack have been knighted, decorum would have required him to use the title. I seem to recall in the Ionian Mission there was a statement that he was to be Knighted but Andrew Wray caused him to be passed over.kjrjr —Preceding comment was added at 21:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

In order to have a sash of the Order of the Bath, you have to actually be a Knight Companion or higher, which is an automatic knighthood. I guess this is one of those frequent ommissions/inconsistencies that O'Brian tended to pepper in his work (for example in The Commodore, Clarissa Oakes mentions having been aboard the Nutmeg, when in Clarissa Oakes she only shows up aboard Surprise), but since Jack was up for a Baronetcy for his sinking of the Dutch 74 in Desolation Island (which was squished by Wray) I guess he might have been a K.B. at one point. It's possible, that like Cochrane, Jack was stripped of his knighthood for his role in the stock market fraud, and that Jack, who was never one for titles anyway, simply didn't care to be reinstated when he was exonerated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.97.252.227 (talk) 09:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Specifically, where is Jack described as wearing a Bath ribbon? I can't find it anywhere. What I can find are numerous mentions that had it not been for Andrew Wray's malignancy he would have been knighted but was not. He is never refered to as "sir" any where in the series. My opinion is that the title along with the post nomial "KB" should be removed from the entry unless it can be demonstrated that it belongs there.[User:kjrjr|kjrjr]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.250.207.174 (talk) 18:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * In my copy of 21, Chapter 2, Jack instructs Killick (on being told that his best coat has suffered from the voyage to and from Chile in the previous novel) to "Just look out my ribbon of the Bath, will you? It sets off an old coat very well." (p. 6482 of the WW Norton "Complete Aubrey-Maturin" set) Ubernostrum (talk) 14:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Also in the beginning of Desolation Island: "...of Captain Aubrey himself by Beechey in full-dress uniform of a senior post-captain, with the red ribbon of the Bath across his broad chest..." is where this first appears. This Beechey portrait is clearly meant to have been done right after his return from the Mauritius campaign, and the bath ribbon a reference to Rowley being knighted for said campaign. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.13.46.137 (talk) 09:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe in 1815 King George granted Knighthood in the Order of the Bath to about 500 senior officers who served with distinction in the war against Napoleon. Surely Jack would've qualified for this, maybe POB inteneded to imply it in 21 by having Jack having the ribbon. 170.141.109.39 (talk) 20:44, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Assigning Aubrey a title on the basis of a detail an unfinished, unpublished manuscript (21) is a case of assuming facts not strictly in evidence. At no point in any of the books published during O'Brian's lifetime is Aubrey referred to as "Sir John." Moreover doing so could potentially create confusion with the non-fictional Sir John Aubrey, a contemporary of the fictional Jack Aubrey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.212.64.170 (talk) 14:55, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * If Jack Aubrey was a real person it would be insulting and demeaning to assign to him a title he never had. Several of the books specifically refer to the fact that he 'ought to have been knighted' but never was.  Several of the books have exact wording from his orders which name him as esquire.  One of the books refers to his abhorrence of titles on the grounds that they set a fellow apart, make too much to be expected of him.  Like all of his fans I'm sure, I'd love to have seen Aubrey knighted, but the plan fact is that he wasn't.  In Nutmeg when discussing the correct way to address Aubrey Mrs McQuarie repeatedly refers to him as Captain Aubrey in dialogue.  It's seems farcial to imagine that she would not, in such a situation, have named him as Sir John, if that in fact was his title.
 * The ribbon mentioned in desolation Island is explicitly denied in following books and to lay certainty on the re-emergence of the thing in an unfinished draft is, as I have said, quite demeaning. I intend to remove the words KB from the article. Please don't revert them - you would do John Aubrey no credit if you did.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.155.246.150 (talk) 05:57, 31 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Whether it would do John Aubrey no credit is entirely unrelated to this article. The only question is whether Jack Aubrey was knighted in the books. In this case, the fact he had a Bath ribbon meant that at some point he must have been knighted. It is demeaning to nobody, and if it was would again be entirely irrelevant: it is not in Wikipedia's nature to decide whether something is demeaning or "would do somebody no credit", merely to describe things as they are. Audigex (talk) 17:37, 29 October 2014 (UTC)


 * In The Surgeon's mate Aubrey reads himself into the Ariel. The book notes his actual words in reading his orders and they begin "To John Aubrey, Esquire..."
 * Given the formal nature of Admiralty orders it would seem clear enough that at that point his name was John, and he was not a knight.


 * Furthermore at the beginning of Desolation Island Aubrey's Mother in Law found sighing about degradation, by which she means his (in her mind) demotion from Commodore, to Captain. It seems unlikely that had  Aubrey been granted a knighthood and stripped of it, that she would not have been noted as complaining about that as well.


 * The mostly likely answer is that it was a strand that O'Brian started weaving and never brought properly into the story. Remember also 21 was never proofed.  I expect that if anyone had queried O'Brian on it in his lifetime he would have found something equally as witty to say as his response to the erudite Dutchman in the matter of Eau-de-Cologne.

219.89.14.249 (talk) 07:39, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

To the many unsigned commenters above, look at Ref 8 in the article, which includes a quote from the start of Desolation Island, which is describing a painting done of the Captain, hanging in his home. There is reference to a sash from the order of the Bath. Whether the painter took license in the portrait is not said. I read it as summarizing the financial success Aubrey had in the prior book. --Prairieplant (talk) 04:00, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

I recall reading elsewhere that Cochrane did not like the pomp and perhaps pomposity of the Order of the Bath, so when he was stripped of it for his financial scandal, he was pleased. Bernard Cornwell has Cochrane as a character in one of the Sharpe series novels, and the character talks about how foolish the rituals were. If my memory is serving me well, might O'Brian be referring to this aspect of Cochrane's character, but in the way of Aubrey, he never talks about it? Aubrey never likes "showing away", Maturin observes more than once. --Prairieplant (talk) 06:03, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that the evidence of all the books except Desolation Island and 21 is that Aubrey was never knighted. Perhaps the portrait was painted with the expectation of his being honoured but the gong never materialised. I do not believe that he was given a knighthood and then stripped of it as Cochrane was. How it crept back into 21, I have no explanation except POB's age and a lack of editing of the manuscript. In The Mauritius Command, Aubrey does comment after being told that he might receive a knighthood or baronetcy if he succeeds. "' The Jack Aubrey of King James’s time paid a thumping fine not to be a baronet, you know. Not that I mean the least fling against men who have won a great fleet action – it is right and proper that they should be peers – but when you look at the mass of titles, tradesmen, dirty politicians, moneylenders . . . why, I had as soon be plain Jack Aubrey – Captain Jack Aubrey, for I am as proud as Nebuchadnezzar of my service rank, and if ever I hoist my flag, I shall paint here lives Admiral Aubrey on the front of Ashgrove Cottage in huge letters. Do not think I am one of your wild democratical Jacobins, Stephen – do not run away with that notion – but different people look at these things in different lights.’" Cochrane on the other hand was already titled, albeit a courtesy title, and when he was reinstated did also take back his Order of the Bath.Dabbler (talk) 12:33, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * When the Order of the Bath was reorganized into three divisions, Knights Grand Cross (GCB), Knights Commander (KCB) and Companions (CB) in 1816 or so a good many officers were awarded the new lower division of Companion of the Order of the Bath (CB). This was signified by a red ribbon but they were not entitled to be called "Sir". Perhaps this is the origin of the 21 ribbon while also retaining the simple style of Admiral John Aubrey. Dabbler (talk) 14:59, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Hate to bring this up again, but someone changed the Order of the Bath that Jack was awarded. Now, I put the references in there from the text specifically to show that according to the text he had been awarded it. I don't know why O'Brian never followed it up, or never removed it "21", but that's pretty much speculation at this point. I think the comment below said it the best:
 * Whether it would do John Aubrey no credit is entirely unrelated to this article. The only question is whether Jack Aubrey was knighted in the books. In this case, the fact he had a Bath ribbon meant that at some point he must have been knighted. It is demeaning to nobody, and if it was would again be entirely irrelevant: it is not in Wikipedia's nature to decide whether something is demeaning or "would do somebody no credit", merely to describe things as they are. Audigex (talk) 17:37, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

JMvanDijk (talk)
 * You are making a mistake of treating this incident in an "in universe" style, i.e. as though Jack Aubrey was a real person and Patrick O'Brian was writing a factual history. This has been commented on as a deficiency in this article. I tried to address this in my contribution on the subject. Jack Aubrey was a fictional character and Patrick O'Brian in one sentence refers to the possibility of him having been awarded the Order of the Bath and then never refers to that alleged knighthood again in any other book. The Order ribbon mentioned in 21 could easily have been of a Companion of the Order which is not a knighthood. Dabbler (talk) 21:09, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It would be stretching it a bit - the CB insignia was/is the badge of the Order suspended from a piece of ribbon and worn on the left breast of the coat, just as medals are worn today. Hardly likely to set off an old uniform in the same way as the KB/GCB riband across the torso. Opera hat (talk) 00:19, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, lets look at this like this. Hpothesis:  wiki is supposed to describe things as they are, not as we would wish them to be (see Five pillars esp. Avoid stating opinions as facts).  Given this, there are 2 facts in black and white, i.e. quotes from the text we are working with:
 * 1. Desolation Island, Ch.1, (I can get the page number if you want) "...of Captain Aubrey himself by Beechey in the full-dress uniform of a senior post-captain, with the red ribbon of the Bath across his broad chest,looking cheerfully at a bursting mortar-shell in which were to be seen the Aubrey arms with the honourable augementation of two Moors' heads, proper...".
 * 2. 21, The Final Unfinished Voyage of Jack Aubrey, Ch.2, pg 52. "Just look out my ribbon of the Bath, will you? It sets off an old coat very well."


 * This would indicate that Jack had been awarded the Bath sometime after the Mauritius campaign, i.e. definitely before 1815.


 * Fact 3: both here and on the Official Website of the British Monarchy (http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Honours/OrderoftheBath.aspx) that "The existing Knights Companion (of which there were 60)became Knight Grand Cross" (ref "The Times" (of London)10 Jan 1815.  Futhermore, all members of the Bath before 1815 work the red ribbon and the Star (see portraits of Rodney, Nelson, Keith, etc. etc.)and the title "Sir".


 * Form this I must conclude that Jack was a Knight Companion of the Bath before 1815 and after 1815 a Knight Grand Cross of the Bath.


 * Now I cannot and should not in Wikipedia speculate as to why he was never addressed as "Sir Jack" and why O'Brian never followed up on that form of address or if he meant to remove the reference from "21". It also does not remove the first reference in "Desolation Island". Sadly, he is dead, and we can't ask. I would put it to you that such questions belong more in a journal literary criticism.  Wikipedia is not that.


 * I could certainly agree that the article could use a less "in universe" style, as could many articles (see James Kirk). However, that is besides the argument above.


 * I therefore, suggest amending the paragraph in the article as:


 * In one scene in Desolation Island, Aubrey is shown in a portrait to be wearing the red ribbon of the Order of the Bath apparently for his victory in the Mauritius Campaign.[8] This is not mentioned again in the other completed books, nor is the form of address "Sir Jack" used, even in formal correspondence. It is not mentioned that he was stripped of the honor when he was dismissed from the Royal Navy as the basis of his character, Lord Cochrane, was.  The Bath ribbon is mentioned in the final uncompleted book "21" (ref). After 1815 the order was reorganized and enlarged, so that Jack would have originally been a Companion of the Order entitling him to wear the red ribbon and star, and to be called "Sir". After 1815 he would have been a Knight Grand Cross of the Bath.[ref]

JMvanDijk (talk)


 * This is way overboard for a minor aspect of a fictional character. Aubrey is quoted, as noted somewhere above, as never wanting a title other than Captain or Commodore, and being descended from an ancestor who paid money not to be a baronet. There are at least two times when Maturin reflects on Aubrey's distaste for "showing away", once when Maturin by chance heard his friend playing his violin in the middle of the night at home, with a skill far above what Aubrey shows when he plays with Maturin. Such a man does not seek titles, does he? All this speculation on what O'Brian might have meant with a sash in a portrait, it is too much! O'Brian moved battles to different years, had his fictional Lord Keith in the Mediterranean when Napoleon escaped, when I believe the real Lord Keith was in charge of the Channel Fleet, kept Saumarez in a place he had left, in true history, so Saumarez could be included in one of the novels. It was easy for me to take the fiction as written, and the character of Aubrey as portrayed. I think comments on all the rules of who gets the title sir, like it or not, are beyond what the author wrote. --Prairieplant (talk) 17:04, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Again, great literary criticism, and I agree that it should not deserve more than I gave it in the proposed change, but not the point of the argument. JMvanDijk (talk)

He would never have been called Sir Jack Aubrey. His Christian name was John and that would have been his title, if he had ever been awarded a knighthood. Also I wonder what your proposal actually adds to what is written in the current version of the article except a description of the changes in the Order which are never addressed in the books. Dabbler (talk) 18:42, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Really not the point if it is Sir Jack or Sir John (although AdmiralFisher was called Sir Jacky informally), nor is it the point if we expound upon the changes in the order of the Bath. So this could be the paragraph:
 * In one scene in Desolation Island, Aubrey is shown in a portrait to be wearing the red ribbon of the Order of the Bath apparently awarded for his victory in the Mauritius Campaign.[8] This is not mentioned again in the other completed books, nor is the form of address "Sir John" used, even in formal correspondence. It is not mentioned that he was stripped of the honor when he was dismissed from the Royal Navy as the basis of his character, Lord Cochrane, was.  The Bath ribbon is mentioned in the final uncompleted book "21" (ref).
 * JMvanDijk (talk)

Proposed change. Without any more objections will post this on Monday.... JMvanDijk (talk)


 * Not sure what change are you proposing. Is it the words above? If so I do not think they are an improvement on the the existing wording in the article or is it the table below which I am indifferent to, although I do not believe it is complete, for example where is the diamond chelengk (as awarded to Nelson too) awarded to Aubrey by the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire? Also in Reverse of the Medal and Nutmeg of Consolation Aubrey is described wearing his Lloyd's 100 guinea presentation sword with his chelengk (but no Bath ribbon).Dabbler (talk) 18:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I think he wants to put the table next following. I do object to it. A sentence or two saying the military honors he received, and in which book it is first noted, would suffice for the Awards section. There is no need to repeat the image of the Battle of the Nile, as it is that main article. The chelengk is worth mentioning, as he got the award from the sultan when no similar award was given by his own government to him, and if it is like an award earned by Nelson, that also makes it noteworthy. Explaining the history of the Order of the Bath is beyond the scope of the novels, and strikes me as original research, very original, as it is not in the novels, and last, you have not said whuch printed book says that the character Jack Aubrey has this collection of medals and the author confuses those who know about the Order of the Bath sash, as during the Napoleonic Wars, all who had the sash were called Sir, and never turned down being called Sir. As it is, the Awards section has one link to Battle of the Nile, and a paragraph, rather overlong, about how the experts (that is, Wikipedia editors) on Order of the Bath are confused by O'Brian's writings.


 * Something like the following, but with appropriate wikilinks, and correct me if I have the wrong books listed -- Aubrey earned the silver Nile medal and wore it on his dress uniform always (mentioned in nearly every novel when the dress uniform is donned). He earned it as a lieutenant in an action before the series began, in the 1798 Battle of the Nile. His portrait was painted to hang at home, showing him wearing the red sash of the Order of the Bath, described at the start of Desolation Island, after he returned from great success in The Mauritius Command. He received an elaborate diamond chelengk, earned in The Ionian Mission (is this correct?), and mentioned in Treason's Harbour as having been saved by Killick. The Order of the Bath sash is again mentioned in the unfinished novel 21, when Aubrey is about to step aboard the ship flying his broad pennant as Rear Admiral of the Blue. The Order of the Bath in that era normally was accompanied by knighthood and the title Sir. O'Brian never calls Aubrey Sir John, nor has any other character refer to him as Sir John, in any of the novels.  --Prairieplant (talk) 21:02, 2 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I forgot to include the presentation sword, as I do not know in which novel he received it. There were two instances, I believe, of grateful merchants showering Aubrey with thanks in the form of silver plate, and possibly cash as well. I would need to look up which novels mentioned that. Does the gratitude of the merchants count with awards? --Prairieplant (talk) 21:14, 2 April 2015 (UTC)


 * We never hear when Aubrey is awarded the presentation sword. He appears for the first time wearing it in the beginning of the The Reverse of the Medal in Barbados. It must have been awarded when he was a captain as it is the 100 guinea sword, lieutenants and lower ranked officers were given swords of lesser value.

"'Captain Aubrey was resplendent in blue and gold; a Lloyd’s presentation sword hung at his side and the Nile medal from the fourth buttonhole of his coat, while the chelengk, a Turkish decoration in the form of a diamond aigrette, sparkled in his best gold-laced hat, worn nobly athwartships like Nelson’s; he had washed and shaved (a daily custom with him, even in very heavy weather), and his hair, having been rigorously brushed, clubbed, and fastened with a broad black band behind, was now exactly powdered.' The Reverse of the Medal, chap. 2" "'...the Surprises were pleased to see their Captain in his full naval glory once more, his white silk stockings, his hundred guinea presentation sword and the Turkish chelengk in his hat intimidated them a little' The Nutmeg of Consolation, chap. 7"Dabbler (talk) 11:30, 3 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I put in a new section called Awards and Rewards, merged two section both having to do with reliance on historical naval actions, and worked on the references, trying to make them a more consistent format, the ones in the Reference list. I deleted the Sources section, as that simply provided the year of publication for the page numbers cited in Master and Commander. I hope all of it is an improvement in consistency, and possibly moves to the goal of more distinction between the books and the world. I know one or two references have Norton as the publisher but the editor who put it there did not indicate the year of the Norton publication, so I put the year of initial publication. Hoping the initial editor will come back and put the year for that book. --Prairieplant (talk) 01:53, 4 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Just looked after the Holiday weekend. I think what you wrote is fine.  I just added back in the references, and a short sentence, "It was also mentioned in '21'". JMvanDijk (talk) 14:58, 6 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the kind words. The mention of Order of the Bath in 21 is in the second paragraph, and one mention of that seems enough for the section. --Prairieplant (talk) 05:23, 7 April 2015 (UTC)


 * My mistake. No worries.  Will add refs there. JMvanDijk (talk) 14:35, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Charlton Heston as Jack
The citation needed for O'Brian's picturing of Charlton Heston as Jack can be found here:http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DEFDD143AF933A05752C1A9659C8B63 Not sure how to do the cite properly myself. PrePressChris (talk) 18:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Flagship
I know "21" refers to HMS Suffolk as Aubrey's flagship, but Aubrey's orders at the end of Blue at the Mizzen state that Aubrey is to raise his flag in HMS Implacable, not HMS Suffolk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.233.238 (talk) 19:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * In the time period, it was common for an Admiral to shift their flag as convenient, and the time delay often meant that orders sent to South America could be very different from the actual state of affairs halfway round the world. It's certainly not beyond possible that the Implacable had gone elsewhere by the time Aubrey arrived, replaced by Suffolk, or that the Suffolk arrived and was the more powerful unit on the station. Implacable could even have been in for repairs or similar... there are potentially dozens of reasons an Admiral would raise his flag in a ship other than the one originally ordered Audigex (talk) 17:33, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

HMS Surprise isn't actually sold out of the Service until Book 11, The Reverse of the Medal. Maturin buys her, and Aubrey takes command of her once again as a letter of marque in the book of the same name.82.43.233.238 (talk) 19:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Masterandcommanderposter.jpg
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 * Image removed, as it isn't necessary to understand the subject of the page, and is irrelevant to the novels themselves. --Badger151 (talk) 04:30, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Repeated paragraph
The preceeding paragraph is repeated in both the lead and the Career and characteristics depicted in the novels sections, I'm not sure which is more appropriate, but one should be deleted: I suggest the lead? Audigex (talk) 17:41, 29 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The lead should indicate what the article will say, so I think there is nothing wrong with having it in both places. It is well-written and concise. Many lead sections use a sentence or two directly from the article. The lead is a summary of the article, pointing out what makes the article noteworthy. --Prairieplant (talk) 04:02, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Ship links
The "Ships commanded..." section here has a list of ships, whose names are linked to articles of Royal Navy ships of the period. First of all, is there a source which marries up these names to the ships linked; and second, as we are talking about a fictional character, is it reasonable to state that he commanded any of them? It also lists HMS Surprise, which links to HMS Surprise (1796); as we have a title for HMS Surprise (O'Brian novels) (which, in any event, is not the same ship as HMS Surprise (1796); different rating, different history) I've taken the liberty of changing the links to Surprise here, and in the book articles, to this title. I trust everyone is OK with that. Swanny18 (talk) 02:39, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

PS: I've also proposed that we make that title into a discrete article (it currently redirects to a section at Surprise 1796). There is a discussion here if anyone wishes to comment. Swanny18 (talk) 02:41, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Queeney?
Who is "Queeney"? Aubrey's mother is Queeney? If so, please say that. And she died when Aubrey was a boy, but she came back later and married someone other than his father???? The article currently has:"Aubrey's mother died when he was a boy. His father General Aubrey lives a longer life, and is a character in some of the novels, often working against the career interest of his son with clumsy politics. In Master and Commander, Aubrey describes the efforts of 'Queeney' to teach him some Latin and the mathematics associated with a sailing ship and its navigation so that he could pass his examination for lieutenant. Her family had occupied Damplow, a house adjoining General Aubrey's estate ('they were almost in our park').[5]""Queeney returns into Aubrey's life when she marries Lord Keith. Lord Keith gave him his promotion to master and commander and his first command. Queeney is the historic Hester Maria Elphinstone, Viscountess Keith, and in her mother the reader will recognize the historic Hester Thrale.[5]"

Some rewording, at least, is needed. --Doncram (talk) 00:49, 20 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Queeney is not his mother and the text does not say that. I added the phrase "slightly older neighbor" before the first use of her name, and wiki linked her name at its second use. She is a character based on a real woman who excelled at mathematics, and later in her life married a high ranking naval officer, but you can read all that at the wiki link, especially as you did not catch that she married Lord Keith in the text you quoted. I hope that suffices for you, and you understand that poor Jack was raised by his nutty father and learned enough mathematics from his kind, female neighbor who was good in mathematics. That she lived in Damplow might have given you a clue that she was not his mother. --Prairieplant (talk) 00:16, 21 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks Prairieplant, your revision helps. --Doncram (talk) 04:14, 22 January 2021 (UTC)