Talk:Jack Crawford (cricketer)

The Surrey side for that 1909 match against the Australians
"I do not know who was responsible for the selection of the second eleven sort of team furnished up for such an important match" Crawford was indulging in some hyperbole there. It looks to me as if Surrey had about eight members of their strongest XI. Apart from Rushby (and Crawford himself), the only major absentee I can see is Jack Hobbs. Also it's rather ironic that Crawford's withdrawal led to Tom Hayward, the senior pro, captaining the side (even though MC Bird, who I believe was an amateur, was in the XI) - worth noting in the article? The side fielded had at least eight professionals and possibly ten (I don't know the status of Goatly and Kirk). That all tends to suggest that Crawford allowed himself to get a bit carried away. Of course he was still only 22, and may have had the rashness of youth. I suspect that if CW Alcock had still been Secretary (he retired in 1907), things would never have been allowed to get so out of hand. No doubt the new Secretary was still rather feeling his way. JH (talk page) 09:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The McKinstry book on Hobbs suggests that it was more deep-seated than that; that's why I added the comments about Alverstone, who really seems to have messed the team up. I wonder (speculating here!) if Crawford had seen enough and this was the last straw. Apart from Rushby, I think the major absentee was Marshall, who also got himself into trouble that season (something to do with being slightly noisy in a street which Alverstone though was terrible). I'm fairly sure Hobbs was not part of the trouble, but I might just check! I think it is worth adding about Hayward captaining the team, and I'll see if I can find out if any of the others were amateurs. Oddly, though, everyone at the time mentioned that the team was weakened suggesting that they thought Crawford had at least some point. But I think you might be right about him getting carried away, he seems a little headstrong. --Sarastro1 (talk) 18:13, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I've certainly read elsewhere that Alverstone had an ambition that Surrey would one day field an all amateur side. But I think even then most would have recognised that that idea could only be fantasy. The example of Somerset showed how hard it was to be competitive if you relied almost entirely on amateurs. (Somerset were so strapped for cash that they had little choice.) Obviously as President Alverstone had a lot of influence, but he could only get his way if he could persuade the majority of the committee, and I can't see their being in favour of a measure that would clearly drastically weaken the side. Alverstone was in his sixties, and I imagine that his ideas on descipline and on amateurs had been formed half a century before and were rather out of date. However Rushby is supposed to have a poor disciplinary record. Apparently if he didn't feel like playing he had been known to send a telegram reading simply: "Rushby ill. Rushby." JH (talk page) 20:51, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I've looked up what David Lemmon's The History of Surrey County Cricket Club has to say about the affair. It sheds some additional light on why Marshal was suspended. It seems that it was a bit more than being "slightly noisy in a street". Apparently at Chesterfield during the previous match Marshal and some teammates had headed and kicked a ball about in the street on their way to their hotel. A perhaps rather over-officious constable asked Marshal for his name. However he wouldn't give it, so was taken to the police station, where the others who followed him had their names and addresses taken. They also gave the name of Walter Lees, who had not gone with them at all. The matter was taken to the Chief Constable, but he dismissed it and the case did not reach court. As Alverstoke was Lord Chief Justice at the time, one can understand his being less than impressed. Most of the above Lemmon took from a passage in Hobbs' ghosted autobiography, published in 1935. Hobbs himself was not in Chesterfield, as he was playing for England at the time. So the real offence seems to have not been being rowdy in the street, but Marshal refusing to give his name to the PC. JH (talk page) 09:57, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Just checked on CricketArchive Jack Hobbs' appearances just prior to the match against the Australians. He appeared in the match against Lancashire that immediately followed the Derbyshire game, but was "absent hurt" in both innings. There were then two Gentlemen v Players matches, one at Lord's and one at The Oval. Interestingly, unlike the Tests, almost no county matches were scheduled to clash with these, and Surrey didn't have a match. You'd expect Hobbs to play in at least one of these G v P matches if fit, but he didn't take part in either, which strongly suggests that he was still injured. Thus he probably wasn't fit for the match against the Australians. One of the books that I looked in mentioned a torn fingernail keeping him out for 10 matches, but I had thought that this was earlier in the season. Modern sympathies naturally tend to lie with Crawford, but the more I look into this the more his stand appears petulant and uncalled for. It doesn't look as though Alverstone's preference for playing amateurs had any material impact on the composition of the side, which even without Hobbs, Marshal, Crawford and Rushby was still a pretty strong one. And I see that Surrey had rather the better of a rain-ruined draw. Interestingly, this was Surrey's second match against the Australians. In the earlier match, in May, Surrey had fielded 9 first choice players, plus two in Curwen and Spring whom I've never even heard of. Crawford had captained in that match too, and Surrey had won. Apart from the unavoidable absence of Hobbs in the second match, if Crawford had played in it the side would have been little if at all weaker than in the first match. So why was he willing to lead in one match but not in the other? JH (talk page) 19:17, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Re Hobbs; he practically ripped off his fingernail in the Lancashire match and missed five weeks from the beginning of July: this is in Wisden for 1909. I wonder what else was going on. History between Crawford and Alverstone or Leveson-Gower? A check of the Times reveals that Bird and Kirk were the amateurs in the team, but nothing is mentioned in terms of a weak Surrey side except Crawford and Hobbs being missing. Crawford's Times obituary speculates that there was more going on than revealed at the time, but the Wisden summary for Surrey in 1909 (I only have access to this through the anthology for 1900-1940) mentions "Surrey had trouble with some of their professionals". I wonder if this was somehow the root of it, rather than the actual team for the game, and Crawford just lost it when he realised Rushby was missing? Again, Wisden says "but [Crawford] refused to [captain], his reason being that the committee had left out essential players, among others Rushby..." I think you may be right that Crawford, maybe accustomed to everything going his way, just threw his toys out of the pram. But, there is no smoke without a fire? The McKinstry book on Hobbs mentions the poisonous atmosphere in the team in 1909, and also says (you may know better here) that Alverstone's policy was at least partially responsible for the decline of Surrey in the early 1900s due to the lack of stability in the team. But even if this was the case, it would have nothing to do with Crawford, who was at school and ironically would have benefitted from it had he not been quite as good as he was. Hmmm. I'm just not sure what was really going on. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:09, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * One other view: Birley's "Social History" (although I doubt he is any more informed than us on the details of the case) claims that Crawford was unhappy that two players "charged with insubordination" were left out. Presumably Rushby and Marshal. No mention of a weak team; if this was the real reason, maybe the weak team protest was just a smokescreen that these two players should not have been dropped. McKinstry says that Marshal was a close friend of Hobbs, which makes him unlikely to be too much of a rebel. Also from McKinstry: Marshal refused to give his name and he and the others (for moral support) went to the station, but when the Derbyshire chief constable heard about it, he ordered no further action to be taken. McKinstry also gives the reason Marshal did not give his name: he did not feel a crime had been committed. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:16, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * What McKinstry says about what happened at Chesterfield agrees with what Lemmon quotes from Hobbs' autobiogrtaphy. I'd guess that that was McKinstry's source too, I hadn't know that Marshal and Hobbs were particular friends. I suppose that the two of them were probably the youngest professionals in the side, and so it wouldn't be that surprising that they became friends. It's interesting to speculate on what might have happened had Hobbs not been away playing for England when the match at Chesterfield was played. Would Marshal have got Hobbs into trouble, or would Hobbs have kept Marshal out of it? I'd imagine that Hayward wasn't walking with the group who got into trouble. He was highly respected as the senior pro, and I don't think would have permitted anything that he saw as misbehaviour. It's interesting, given that Alverstone was still President in 1914, that when the then club captain CTA Wilkinson was away on business Hayward captained the side on a number of occasions in August in preference to any of the young amateurs (who by then I think included Percy Fender). And Surrey won the Championship. JH (talk page) 20:46, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * McKinstry rather suggests that Hobbs would have joined in: it was the sort of practical joking for which he was notorious! I wonder what may have happened then? I doubt the committee would have been quite as friendly towards Hobbs as they were later. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:56, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I think even then Hobbs was well-liked, which might have helped. Ronald Mason quotes the note that Leweson-Gower (chairman of the Test selectors as well as official Surrey captain) wrote to Hobbs on his selection earlier that season for the first Test, saying how pleased he was and how much Hobbs deserved it. It was very warm and friendly. As for Surrey's struggles during the first decade of the 20th century, I suspect that a decline was inevitable as a lot of their great players (Abel, Richardson, Lockwood) aged. They did have one or two duds as captain, but of course the officially appointed captain had to be an amateur then, so I don't know how much of that can be laid at Alverstone's door if there was a lack of anyone suitable. And there was a revival under Lord Dalmeny, captain from 1905-7. Alcock's retirement as Secretary in 1907 probably didn't help the club. Lweson-Gower was the nominal captain from 1908-10, but it looks as though he wasn't available much in 1909. (He had at least one other job, as chairman of the England Test selectors, of course.) JH (talk page) 21:02, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Doing the Double
Returning to England for the 1906 season, Crawford completed the double of 1,000 runs and 100 wickets in first-class cricket, the youngest player at the time to accomplish this feat. I'd be very surprised if it had been beaten since, but I don't know how to check. JH (talk page) 17:54, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd guess Brian Close, but I'm not too sure where to check either. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:13, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Close, born 24 February 1931, was 18 years and 6-and-a-bit months old at the end of the 1949 season. Crawford, born 1 December 1886, was 19 years and 9 months old at the end of the 1906 season. Dates easily confirmed in Wisden, Cricinfo etc. Brianboulton (talk) 10:27, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Review comments
(Copied from talk page here) I've now looked at your latest additions. Reading what Hart has to say, I can't help seeing parallels to the KP affair. He seems to have been a similar sort of character. I suppose Leweson Gower is the equivalent of Cook, and Lord Alverstoke of Paul Downton, though I don't see a parallel for Andy Flower! A couple of thoughts follow. There may be more once I've had a chance to reread the whole article:

There was some controversy over his eligibility to play; New South Wales initially protested, but Victoria had previously decided to ignore a rule which required a three-month qualification period, and the New South Wales Cricket Association (NSWCA) Executive Committee accepted this, to the displeasure of the full NSWCA. That's slightly confusingly worded. Does it mean: There was some controversy over his eligibility to play; New South Wales initially protested, but Victoria had previously decided to ignore a rule which required a three-month qualification period, and the New South Wales Cricket Association (NSWCA) Executive Committee had accepted this, to the displeasure of the full NSWCA, thus setting a precedent.? (Suggested added words in bold. I'm assuming that the displeasure of the full NSWCA was regarding the Victoria occasion that had set the precedent, rather than about the Crawford case.)

It is unclear what his role was at this time; he seems to have had no official cricketing role and it is possible he worked as a teacher simply to maintain his amateur status. Not clear what is meant by "role" here.

JH (talk page) 09:26, 8 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, either Alverstoke was not as powerful as he has generally been portrayed or else he was less reactionary regarding the place of professionals. I've just looked up on CricketArchive the matches in which Tom Hayward captained Surrey and there were a surprising number: 2 in 1905, 2 in 1909 (including that match against the Australians), 2 in 1913, and as many as 9 in 1914. I don't think that either Rhodes or Sutcliffe was ever named as captain of Yorkshire when the regular captain was unavailable, were they, even though they were comparable in experience and the respect in which they were held to Hayward? JH (talk page) 10:41, 8 October 2014 (UTC)


 * One more thing. In his book Cricketers of My Times A. A. Thomson mentions that he was present at the Oval on the day in 1919 when Crawford and Hobbs had their famous opening partnership against the clock. I'm undecided whether it's worth quoting in the article some of what he says about it. He mentions "a steamy drizzle and horrid light" (which could well have handicapped the bowlers (wet ball) and fielders more than the batsman, I guess). He writes: "...there was no swiping, no thrashing about. The hitting was as deadly and as precise as machine-gun fire; the placing might have been the work of two snooker players of world class. There seemed to be nothing that the fielders could do." That's from p122. JH (talk page) 17:32, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I've finished going through the article now. I've made a few changes, almost all very minor, and also mentioned one point on the Talk page. One other thought. You refer to Hart writing of him: Hart comments: "Crawford's financial dealings with the SACA reveal him both as mercenary and as an awkward 'cuss'. The latter aspect of his personality needs to be taken into account lest he be considered merely an establishment victim in his parting with Surrey. I wonder if some of that ought to be brought forward into the section dealing with the dispute with Surrey to give a better balance. I know that Benny Green became a noted cricket historian, but some of what you've quoted of his strikes me as being very partisan on the side of Crawford. JH (talk page) 18:25, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

A few points
Sarastro has invited comments, but I can find little to fault in this article.
 * I might link "first-class" in the lead and at first mention in the main text.
 * Already done on lead; now done in main body. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

That's all from me. This fine article is well up to standard. –  Tim riley  talk    11:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Tour to South Africa
 * "for the majority of the rest of the series" – a bit of a mouthful. Perhaps "for most the of the rest of the series", "or most of the remaining matches"?
 * Some kind person already did this. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Surrey cricketer
 * "…as the best schoolboy cricketer since A. G. Steel…" – we've had this information already, in the second para of "Early life and career"
 * Removed. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Dispute with Surrey
 * Cricket historian Benny Green – a false title that would be more elegant if redeemed with a definite article in front of it.
 * Reworded that a bit. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Further controversy
 * "Hart comments: "Crawford's financial dealings…" – you need to add closing quotes – not sure where the quote ends.
 * Again, a kind person did this already. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Return to England
 * Jack Hobbs' – For an Englishman I'd prefer the usual BrEng punctuation, Jack Hobbs's.
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Style and technique
 * Although he invariably played in glasses – a quote, I realise, but it's evidently wrong, judging by the pictures of him earlier in the article.
 * If you look really carefully, and zoom in a bit, he is actually wearing them. They are very fine wire frames. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * his most effective delivery was his off break – link wanted?
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Much obliged! Sarastro1 (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Crisco comments

 * Odd how none of the images seem to have him in glasses
 * As above, he is wearing glasses in the lead image. Not too sure about the action shot. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Unusually, - odd to repeat this twice in three sentences
 * Removed one. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * John Charles Crawford, and uncle, Frank Crawford - Per WP:REDLINK, we should not redlink people's names
 * Removed. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Benny Green - Why is a saxaphonist being cited here?
 * He also wrote about cricket. I've reworded to make it clearer we're not just referring to a random musician! Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Although hampered by injuries during the 1905 season for Repton, his last at the school, Crawford scored 766 runs, with a batting average of 85 and took 55 wickets, during the five matches in which he was fit to bowl, at an average under 13. - so many clauses
 * A kind person fixed this. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * for the majority of the rest of the series. - is there a way to avoid so many "of the"'s?
 * Cut this back a bit. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Towards the end of the season, he scored 103 runs in 90 minutes against Kent, his only century that year, hitting several deliveries into the crowd; The Times described the ball in this innings as "soaring away like a bird". - Dare I say he would have been a baseball player had he been born in the US? (*don't hurt me*)
 * Sorry, I passed out for a moment after I read that. I'm fine now. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * for a tour of Australia. - since we just said which country, can we have a different term?
 * Tweaked. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * In 1909, Alverstone left out several professionals. With the regular Surrey captain, H. D. G. Leveson Gower, unavailable for much of the season, Crawford frequently assumed the leadership; he disapproved of Alverstone's policy towards professionals. - can we avoid too much professionalism?
 * Tweaked a bit. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * in an incident of some kind. - being...? If not explained in sources, a note maybe?
 * Nothing known: explained a bit. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Scarborough Festival - worth a link?
 * Yup. Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Gentlemen of the South - worth a link?
 * Not really. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Such a performance would probably have earned him Test selection for Australia if he had been Australian, and Wisden noted that his record was impressive in Australian cricket. - Repetition of "Australian"
 * Tweaked. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * the Ashes - don't think you've linked this yet
 * Now mentioned earlier and linked. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * In 1913, Crawford was included in an Australian team which toured North America. - any details on this tour?
 * Only what is given here. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * an Otago Colts team which produced several future Otago players. - any worth name-dropping?
 * Not that would mean much. Even I've never heard of them. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Married twice, he separated from his first wife, Anita, and married his second, Hilda, - so he must have divorced Anita some time. I mean, bigamy was illegal in England, wasn't it? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It was, but the source I've used is basically a half-arsed job which was never finished properly. The person who wrote it died before completing his research and his writing partner didn't bother to do much except tidy it up. They could not find much about his marriage, and this is all they found. He may have divorced her but the details are not available. To be honest, bigamy was illegal, but that doesn't mean it didn't go on. If his wife was in Australia, no-one in England would even know, I'd imagine. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments
Here are a few observations – I am about two-thirds through. I've also done a little copyediting which you can check out from the edit history. Possibly some of my points will have been picked up by earlier reviewers:
 * In lead: are the words "With the ball" necessary? He is unlikely to have bowled with anything else.
 * Also in lead: "Unusually, Crawford wore spectacles while playing." I would say: "Unusually for a first-class cricketer, Crawford wore spectacles while playing." (Is he wearing them in the photo? I can't be sure)
 * "...to pursue a different career" is unnecessarily vague. "To pursue a career in industry" would be acceptable.
 * The words "He died in 1963" are covered in the first line of the lead.
 * All these done. Regarding the pictures, he is definitely wearing them in the lead picture (zoom in and you can see some thin wire frames), but not too sure about the action picture. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:14, 11 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Early life, etc: "As the composition of the side continually changed, players being brought in for just a handful of games, it performed poorly, leading to unrest from supporters accustomed to success". A somewhat lumbering sentence; the words "players being brought in for just a handful of games" seemingly unnecessary as this is covered by "continually changed". And the phrase "handful of games" has   been used in a recent sentence. My suggested simplification: "The composition of the side continually changed, and  the team performed poorly, causing unrest among supporters accustomed to success".
 * One complaint from my earlier peer review stands – unnecessary detailing of school career. I suggest delete: "The school magazine suggested that he batted more responsibly, taking fewer chances.[12] Once again, he excelled in two crucial fixtures.[3] Crawford also assumed the captaincy; his team was undefeated in the season."
 * Adopted your suggestions here. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:14, 11 October 2014 (UTC)


 * "Wisden ... questioned whether, if he played Test cricket, he would do so for England or South Africa." You deal with this curiosity in a footnote, but I think the explanation should be in the text. The association with South Africa seems very slight.
 * Moved to the main text. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:14, 11 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Tour to South Africa: I would give the age at which Crawford became England's youngest Test cricketer. This information must be available somewhere.
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:14, 11 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Surrey cricketer: shouldn't Steel and Jackson be wikilinked?
 * These have been removed from here now. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:14, 11 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Tour to Australia: "the series was more competitive than suggested by the results." This viewpoint should be attributed as well as cited. (And once again Crawford seems to have forgotten his specs)
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:14, 11 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Dispute with Surrey:
 * You casually mention Crawford's brother Vivian, who captained Leicestershire. JNC was actually the youngest of three brothers all of whom played first class cricket; the other was Reginald Crawford, who also played for Leicestershire. I think that the existence of these cricketing siblings should be at least briefly noted early in the article, when you mention the father and uncle. There are WP articles for Vivian and Reginald.
 * They are actually mentioned there and wikilinked. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:14, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The phrase "less effective" is used twice in swift succession, and since it is also used near the end of the previous section, I'd rephrase at least one of these.
 * Done, I think. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:14, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "when the performance of Tom Rushby was instrumental" – this wording is unnecessarily stiff and uninformative. Why not something like "after a strong bowling performance by Tom Rushby". Or even give the figures.
 * Done. (Trying to avoid too many figures if possible) Sarastro1 (talk) 10:14, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "Another professional, Alan Marshal, was suspended during 1909 and his contract was terminated the following year." What is the relevance of Marshal's dismissal to Crawford's article? The admittedly slim WP article on Marshal suggests a different reason for his sacking.
 * Cut this. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:14, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "Hart observes..." We need to know who Hart is.
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:14, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Brianboulton (talk) 22:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Further comments
 * Cricket in South Australia
 * "district cricket": would a pipe-link to South Australian Grade Cricket League be appropriate? Do we know which club he played for?
 * Yup. Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "Such a performance would probably have earned him Test selection if he had been Australian" – opinion needs attribution as well as citation.
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "In the 1910–11 season, Crawford scored a half-century in every game he played but was less successful with the ball." First, I'd make this "1910–11 Australian season". Then, does the sentence refer to every game he played, or to every first-class game?
 * Done, and tweaked to say first-class.
 * What was the qualification rule that would have enabled him to play Test cricket for Australia, had he been chosen instead of Kellaway?
 * To the best of my knowledge, there was no hard-and-fast rule, it was just considered "not done". At least one press report suggests that he would have played for England in 1921 but was not considered eligible as he had played for Australian teams. That is blatantly rubbish but shows the way that Test rules were flexible. There is also the case of Ranji in 1896 which shows that there were no rules, just gut feelings.
 * "may have wanted to leave South Australia" → "considered leaving South Australia"?
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "he played for an Australian XI against the MCC touring team" – best clarify, for those who don't know their cricket history, that this was not a Test match, e.g. "a non-representative Australian XI"
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * On the North American tour, Cricinfo here gives full details of the first class matches, if you want to expand a bit.
 * I wasn't really going to bother as it was a bit of a nothing tour. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Further controversy
 * Is it worth mentioning that the match in which he scored 354 was against the "XV of South Canterbury"?
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "During the 1914–15 season he appeared in four first-class games for Otago, in which he scored 337 runs and took 30 wickets, before he married Anita Schmidt in Melbourne in April 1915." A non-sequitur. You shouldn't combine a summary of his cricket feats and the fact of his marriage in the same sentence. The events are quite unconnected.
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "That November, with the First World War into its second year..." If this is November 1916, which appears to be the case, the war was in its third year.
 * Oops. My arithmetic is shot to pieces!
 * "before being posted to England prior to a posting to the Western Front." Ugly "posted...posting"
 * Tweaked. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "He was a Rifleman in the New Zealand Rifle Brigade, but by the time he arrived it was too late to join the fighting" – again, no connection between the two clauses. Being a New Zealand rifleman had nothing to do with arriving too late to fight. Also "rifleman" should not be capitalised.
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "While Crawford was in the army, his wife returned to live in Adelaide; it is not certain whether she remained there permanently, thus ending the marriage." This reads very oddly to me. Where did she return from? The only mention of her previously is the wedding in Melbourne, so what's the Adelaide connection?  Once that's sorted out, I'd recommend you simplify the latter part: "it is not certain whether the marriage ended at this point".
 * It's not too clear what was going on. This is all the source says, and it suggests that the author looked for details but there weren't any. I've tweaked a bit. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Return to England
 * Having said he "became a coach and games master at Repton, his old school" (which seems clear enough), you contradict with: "It is unclear what his position at Repton was at this time". What's the lack of clarity?
 * My mistake; the second source rather trumps the first source, which is basically speculation from the press. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "He later scored 92 against Yorkshire and playing against Kent, scored 48 not out as Jack Hobbs and he scored 96 in 32 minutes in the final innings as Surrey chased a total which seemed impossible to achieve in the little time remaining." Needs better punctuation and perhaps splitting – the repetition of "as" is also a problem. Think about rephrasing.
 * Any better?
 * The words "Married twice" are redundant
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Style and technique
 * I would delete the words "in his study of Crawford" (Hart should have been identified long before now), and thereby avoid the close repetition of Crawford's name.
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

That's me done now. Brianboulton (talk) 22:55, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your help so far. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Cliftonian thoughts
Infobox and lead
 * Don't think we need to wikilink Surrey and England repeatedly
 * This is a function of the infobox, I think, and there isn't much we can do. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Under "Domestic team information" wouldn't it be more accurate to split his time with Surrey into 1904–09 and 1919-21? Also why don't we mention Otago?
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * In a related point I think it is slightly unfair to say in the opening sentence that he "mainly played for Surrey" and then not mention South Australia until three paragraphs in—unless I have misunderstood he was at Surrey for six seasons and at South Australia for four. It is true that he played about five times as many first-class matches for Surrey as he did for South Australia, so I won't push this too much, but in my humble opinion opening by saying he "mainly played for Surrey and South Australia" would be fairer.
 * Fair enough. Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * We say in the opening paragraph that he was "highly regarded from an early age" and then open the second paragraph by saying he "established a reputation as an outstanding cricketer while still a schoolboy". I would recommend adapting the second of these and putting it in place of the first. We can then take the sentence about playing with glasses and put that at the start of the second paragraph.
 * Hmm. Took out the "highly regarded" part as it's a bit weak. Left the rest unchanged as I think it works OK as it is. Feel free to argue! Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I think the third paragraph would be better split into two, perhaps around where he is conscripted.
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Early life and career
 * Why don't we say who Vivian and Reginald played for? Perhaps in a footnote if it's too intrusive. (Vivian played for Surrey and Leics, Reginald played for Leics)
 * For me, that would be a little too much detail for this article, but not sure what thinks. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't have a strong feeling either way. JH (talk page) 18:58, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Unless I am mistaken it is extremely unusual for one to play county cricket at 17. Was this the case then as well?
 * Less so then than now. Perhaps uncommon but not surprising. I've no source which says so, but his impact seems to have been more unusual than his selection, and I could source plenty of schoolboy cricketers in this period if required. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I think "It is not certain why Wisden mentioned South Africa; his only known connection came through his uncle, who had left South Africa five years before this" would be better in a footnote. Perhaps also make clear according to whom the only known connection was this uncle. ("according to Hart, the only known connection came through his uncle ..." or similar)
 * I moved it to the text per a request above, and I think I prefer it there. However, added the Hart part. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Tour to South Africa
 * Perhaps make clear he was making his Test debut for England (some might be reading quickly and miss the explanatory footnote regarding MCC/England).
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Perhaps mention that Close's record still stands.
 * I don't think it is really relevant for Crawford's article (and doesn't apply in women's cricket!) Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Surrey cricketer
 * Does his record for youngest player to complete the double still stand? If not, how long did it stand? (since this is not directly relevant this may be better relegated to a footnote.)
 * No, Close beat it in 1949. Added this now, having found a source. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Being an amateur, he played for the Gentlemen, right?
 * Yup, added. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Tour to Australia
 * "and another was not selected despite strong claims" if he was a first-choice player and had been playing well, why did they not pick this chap?
 * Because he was an arse, basically. It was C. B. Fry, and it's a long story. Too long to include here, I think. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I would recommend splitting the second paragraph here, it's a little long; perhaps at "In the third match ..."
 * Split. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Dispute with Surrey
 * I've copy-edited a bit here
 * Much obliged. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Cricket in South Australia
 * When did he arrive in Oz?
 * Added. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * If they granted him an exception to play for South Australia without fulfilling the residency period, why wasn't he eligible for the Australian Test team? What was the precedent for him to ignore the residency period? What were the requirements at the time for him to play for Australia?
 * Err... I have no idea. I have no idea, and I have no idea! It all seems quite vague and woolly, see my above answer to BB. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Further controversy
 * "In first-class games on this tour he took 21 wickets" The last person we've mentioned is Sims, make clear this is Crawford we're talking about
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Don't need to wl Trumper again
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Who was Anita Schmidt? Any details?
 * None whatsoever unfortunately. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * "Wellington's cricket team" why not just Wellington?
 * Wellington (the place) is mentioned just before and this is to avoid confusion. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Return to England
 * I split a paragraph here
 * No prob. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Perhaps make clearer when we say "In all first-class cricket" that we mean over his entire career
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Style and technique
 * copy-edited a bit here
 * No prob. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Hope all this helps. Great article, very well done. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  15:27, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Much obliged, as ever. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd recommend moving the picture of him bowling down to the last section on his technique. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  15:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, done. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The photos
A couple of photos have been added, but I don't think that the one of The Oval taken in 2008 (was it?) is relevant enough to be worth including. If a photo of the ground from during Crawford's playing career could be found it would be much better. I'm also a little uncertain whether it's worth having a photo of the Adelaide Oval from almost a decade before Crawford played on the ground. JH (talk page) 16:15, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not too bothered either way; maybe an older photo would be better of the Oval, if one exists. I'll have a look. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:41, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I added both of these pictures. I know the one of The Oval is very new but I don't think it really matters that much—the Gas holders were there much the same in Crawford's time and the players wore the same all-white kit then as they do now, so I think in the absence of a more contemporary picture it is better than nothing (the reader will probably understand implicitly the advertising hoardings, seats etc would have been less prominent in Crawford's day). The Adelaide Oval picture I think adds nicely to the article tone. Admittedly I am not an expert but I don't imagine it would have changed much in the eight years between the photograph and Crawford's arrival. In my opinion it adds more than it takes away. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  21:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

More comments

 * Overall, the comments already posted have clearly had a positive effect. The article reads smoothly to me for the most part, and is mostly there already. I did see a few points to be improved here and there, though.
 * Early life and career: Considering that Crawford is being labeled as "the best ever schoolboy cricketer", I feel like there might be a thing or two more to say about this aspect of his career. Is there anything in particular that made him have a great impact or "create chaos", other than his pure skill.
 * Not really, I think he was just that good. The sources don't elaborate. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:57, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Tour to Australia: I don't understand the first part of "In the event, the final game in the series was Crawford's last Test", because it looks like this was his last Test, period.
 * Reworded this a little; it's a phrase I keep using! Sarastro1 (talk) 09:57, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Dispute with Surrey: "and also that he became a less accurate bowler through trying too hard to spin the ball." The "also" could be removed as a redundant word.
 * Done. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:57, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Sarastro told me that he thought the article was choppy, and I think this section may be a strong reason for why he feels that way. We start off with a straight summary of his 1908 cricket performances, then go to a mix of cricket and off-field intrigue. After this, the dispute with Surrey takes center stage for the rest of the section. Any time a mixture of content is included in a section like this, there's going to be some bouncing around, but it's quite noticeable here. Perhaps the section could be split right before Alverstone's letter, to better categorize the content. That's the simplest fix I can think of. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:45, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Tried this. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:57, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments! Sarastro1 (talk) 09:57, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

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Military service
Jack Crawford's military file may be viewed online at Archives NZ. It merely notes that he 'failed to qualify' (for what is not specified), and was returned to the ranks. Huttoldboys (talk)