Talk:Jack Newkirk

Assessment
G'day, great work on this so far. I have assessed it as a Start class article in the Military history project's assessment scale; however, I think it would be very close to achieving a higher rating. If the lead could be expanded a bit, and some of the other details about Newkirk's family (specifically his wife), and awards could be worked into the body of the article, and the "citation needed" tags replaced with refs, I believe it would warrant a B-class rating. When/if you would like a second assessment opinion, please list the article at WP:MHA. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:56, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi there, am I heading in the right direction with this? --Bye for now  (PTT) 20:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * G'day, yes I think its getting there. Thanks for your efforts. IMO, if you can cite or remove the awards of the Distinguished Service Order and Order of the Cloud and Banner, and expand the lead by a couple more sentences, I believe it would be B-class. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:33, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
 * In for assessment, thanks for the assistance --Bye for now (PTT) 15:33, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * G'day, again, I believe that it meets the B-class criteria now, but as I've now done a bit of work on it I will let someone who is more objective take a look and do the assessment. Great work, by the way. I think you could even consider nominating it for Good Article status, if you are keen. I have a couple of quick suggestions: the Google Book link for the Bergin ref seems to go to a different book (Texas Aggies). Also, some of the websites use a different presentation. For instance some use "surname, first name" while others use "first name surname" for the authors. I suggest making this consistent (last name, first name seems more common with how you present the books etc). Anyway, thanks for your efforts and good luck with taking this article further. If you have any questions about the GAN process, please let me know. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 19:39, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi Rupert, first of all many thanks for tidying up.  I've had a look at the GAN info and it seems to be worth a try. Even if it doesn't make it, the process should bring in some advice for improvement.  I actually have quite a bit more material on the subject,  should it be called for. Cheers, --Bye for now  (PTT) 10:46, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No worries at all, good luck. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:51, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Removed from main article until/unless a suitable ref is found
In the summer of 1938, after initial disqualification due to childhood mastoiditis, Newkirk was granted a medical waiver and joined the U.S. Navy with the intent of becoming a pilot.

In May 1941, Newkirk was approached by a representative of Claire L. Chennault, a retired U.S. Army Air Corps officer who had been working in China as an aviation advisor to Chinese General Chiang Kai-shek since the early days of the Sino-Japanese War.

Chennault offered Newkirk a dramatic increase in pay with no loss of rank should he agree to temporarily resign from the U.S. Navy and join the American Volunteer Group.


 * awards       =
 * Distinguished Service Order
 * This is mentioned HERE and that he was decorated by the Brtiish in THIS BOOK. Finally,  THIS BOOK confirms it so I think it can now go in the article! - Though this source was for a DFC rather than DSO   please note, --Bye for now  (PTT) 13:13, 23 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Order of the Cloud and Banner


 * It appears that although he would have been eligible for the Order of the Cloud and Banner he didn't actually receive it because he was one of those who "Died while with the A.V.G. and were not awarded their medals."


 * note: although the above is quite possibly true, I have not yet found a source to verify it, --Bye for now  (PTT) 17:28, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Further research possibilities

 * http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Scarsdale+Jack%22+Newkirk&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1
 * http://www.google.com/search?q=Loiwing,+Yunnan,+china&client=safari&rls=en&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&oq=&gs_l= — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bye for now (talk • contribs) 15:22, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Move to Jack Newkirk
G'day, I suggest this article should be moved to Jack Newkirk. There is nothing at that title, and it is the minimum title that covers this chap. "Scarsdale Jack" is obvious a nickname, and should be in the first line of the lead, but it is unnecessary in the title, as we don't need to disambiguate him from any other Jack Newkirk (at this stage at least). Regards, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 11:38, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Seems reasonable. To be honest, I never gave any thought to the title as I didn't start it and it already had a title when I rescued it from AfD. When the GAR is done, I will move it.  Cheers, --Bye for now  (PTT) 13:35, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Article moved to Jack Newkirk --Bye for now (PTT) 09:13, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Co-ordinates and map
Personally, I needed a map to get my head round this and the only way I could find to generate one was by putting in coordinates. Unfortunately, this makes it too cluttered to be a Good Article so I've put the info here as it may help someone in the future. Maybe make a map one day --Bye for now (PTT) 13:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Toungoo (19.0312°N, 96.4005°W)
 * Mingaladon Airport (16.9096°N, 96.135°W)
 * Kunming (25.1037°N, 102.9428°W)
 * Raheng, Thailand, (16.89599°N, 99.25349°W)
 * Magwe (20.1541°N, 94.9689°W)
 * Chiang Mai (18.7699°N, 98.963°W)
 * Lampang (18.2697°N, 99.5043°W)
 * Loi Wing (Leiyun) (23.8887°N, 97.6374°W)
 * Nam Sang, Burma (20.8926°N, 97.7371°W)
 * Lamphun (18.54942°N, 99.0125°W)

Sources for GAR

 * findagrave has no obvious affiliations or axes to grind. In this article it is used simply to verify a claim by Jack Eisner on warbirdforum.com (see below) that Newkirk was buried in Scarsdale, NY. I believe that it is a reliable additional source for where he is buried. EDIT: replace findagrave source with a New York Times one


 * the two warbirdforum.com sources are to articles written by Daniel Ford. and - see Dan Ford Books or Daniel Ford. Good enough for me.


 * Newkirk, Janet (28 April 1942) "The Life of Jack Newkirk – Known as "Scarsdale Jack"", . This is something I inherited when I rescued the article from AfD. I just assumed good faith from the originator but managed check that such an article, written by his sister shortly after his death, did exist. Copyright 28 April 1942; AA 399590 16360.  It would need someone with access to a good US public library to verify this.  Maybe some day somebody will. EDIT: this source has been removed from the article - there are other sources for this info anyway. --Bye for now  (PTT) 09:41, 23 October 2014 (UTC)


 * the Bergin ebook: is Bob Bergin the problem or the fact that it's an eBook?


 * cv6.org: something else I inherited and only used to establish the date for the Marshall Islands Raid. Never occurred that the date would be questioned. I have replaced it with a source from The Times.


 * politicalgraveyard.com: only used as independent confirmation that Newkirk's widow married Charles Dudley Withers (because the info came from Newkirk's cousin's son and so I felt it needed a second source).


 * flyingtigersavg site is used for "the Walt Disney organization in Hollywood designed our insignia consisting of a winged tiger flying through a large V for victory." and "Their offer was a one-year contract with CAMCO". Both of these statements are attributed to Claire L. Chennault in his book Way of a Fighter ($200ish Out of Print--Limited Availability on Amazon ISBN-13: 978-0685411063). Can we not take their word for these fairly uncontroversial claims?

--Bye for now (PTT) 20:46, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * etc: any particular ceteras in mind?
 * G'day, the issue, first and foremost, is whether a source meets the criteria of reliability. Essentially, whether the work itself, its creator and its publisher are "reliable". Reliability does take into account context, ie using findagrave for the location of a grave is a relatively minor matter in the context of the whole article (unless of course, it is wrong). The sources should be secondary, and if primary sources (such as his sister) are used, they should only be used with extreme caution and no interpretation can be used. Sources dedicated to the memory of an event or organisation (such as fan sites) are usually very questionable, unless the author of a particular entry is reliable themselves. E-books are fine, as long as the author and publishing house are reliable. Peacemaker67  (crack... thump) 07:14, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

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