Talk:Jack O'Neill/Archive 1

Yeah, I know they're idiots. I just wanted to beat my "friends" to it before they began the "erasing the Communist lies".

I need to get new "friends". --SMWhat 04:43, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ribbons and Medals
Ok were it says: "...the general wears (or is known to have) the following ribbons and badges on his Class-A uniform:..." In the Air Force unlike the Army the uniform types are Service Dress or Service Uniform not Class-A. Please note. Nv-20012 (talk) 06:31, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Picture
who's picture is that? The name is Rick. I do not believe that picture is of Richard Dean Anderson,Kurt Russell, or Major Gen. Jack O'Neill. I have reverted it back to an older version. If any one has any comments please say so. If it was in appropriate just revert it back. -- Aquahelper 02:08:20 May 9, 2006 (UTC)

As the article currently stands there are three essentially identical images of Richard Dean Anderson but none at all of Kurt Russel as Jack. Does anyone have a Kurt Russel version handy? We should replace one of the Anderson ones with a Russel. Bryan 06:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Fish
I know this is trivial, but I'm pretty sure the fact there were fish in his pond in "Moebius" was to show that things weren't COMPLETELY as they were. --InShaneee 02:42, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * If nothing else, we should indicate in which episode he says there are no fish and in which episode fish are actually seen, to allow the reader to decide such things. I haven't seen Moebius myself yet (we're running behind in Canada), so I can't really add anything myself yet. Bryan 18:05, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * In the episode "Threads," (which was right before Moebius,) Sam and Jack are fishing and Sam asks, "There are no fish in this pond, are there?" To which Jack responds, "Nope." The fish in Moebius were shown to say that while most things remained in normal continuity, the fish weren't one of them, because the same exact scene happens again, but with fish.

Hm, hopefully someone can make these edits for me. :) Or I will in the next few days. In 9.03 "Origins", Jack is shown as a two star general. Negative Bee 05:41, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Name
In the Stargate movie, his name is Col. Jonathan 'Jack' O'Neil. Notice the one l. It was changed to two l's in the TV series, but perhaps this should be reflected in this article? Steven 03:40, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Thats an injoke. In the TV series Jack comments "There is another O'Neil who only has one L. He doesn't have a sense of humor". This is a joke about how serious O'Neil was in the movie as compared to the TV series. Its argued that Skaraa saved O'Neill and allowed him to live life again and not be so dead serious. Alyeska 07:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Also note, his name in "Stargate The Movie" is is Jonathan O'Neil however in "Stargate SG-1" he is John O'Neill (Season Four's "Entity" can varify that). It may be worth noting that in the article

Birthplace
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Bra'tac once called him "O'Neill of Minnesota". Where did Illinois come from? LD 21:57, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I beileve he said he was from Chicago in the pilot episode and Chicago is in Illinois.
 * You can live in Chicago and be from Minnesota. LD 23:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I admit my mistake, as per "The Fifth Man", where he explicitly said that he was born in Chicago but raised in Minnesota. LD 1:24, 24 October 205 (UTC)
 * Episode S01E07, Saras father calls jack an irish man ?--MatthewFenton 23:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

move. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) Seen this already? 11:20, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

the arcital states that the spelling was ignored. it wasn't i was changed because there is a Jack O'Neil in the airforce and they wanted to avoid confusion. this is not based on dialog

Requested move
Jack O'Neill (Stargate) → Jack O'Neill – This is the most notable Jack O’Neill, the majority of the pages linked through Jack O'Neill are for this page anyway. Also, the other Jack O’Neills on the Jack O'Neill (disambiguation) don't have pages of their own. – Philip Stevens 17:15, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with Philip Stevens 17:15, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. The Filmaker 06:37, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. JoshuaZ 20:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

New Picture
Can we please have a better opening image representing Jack O'Neill? Have you seen the image of Samantha Carter used for her entry here at Wikipedia?? Now that's the kind of thing that should be used to represent Jack as well as Daniel Jackson, Teal'c, General Hammond, Dr. Fraiser, Jonas Quinn, & General Landry. There must be plenty of publicity pictures that can be used rather than screencaps?

Again I ask please lets change the screencaps for good-sized publicity pictures? Let's show these great characters off with some great pictures!--Alan-WK 02:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've created a split-image to cover the "same character, different actor" aspect of Jack O'Neill. Having only one in the bio box is a bit fancrufty to me, as it pits the movie fans against the TV fans.  (I like both.)  I would have used the existing split-image, but there are aspect ratio problems with RDA's half.  As a result of my changes, I removed one of the two RDA screenshots, as per Wikipedia policy, only one screenshot per article is allowed.  Russell's picture is promotional, and the RDA pictures are essentially the same picture, just cropped differently.  I believe that's in line with the policy, but I agree that a promotional headshot would work better.  --Bark 13:55, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd rather just have RDA's image on it's own so that it's the first thing seen on the page and then further on down the page have Kurt Russell's image with something like "Colonel Jack O'Neill as played in the movie by Kurt Russell" written beneath it. The movie shouldn't be forgotten and I don't forget it but RDA is the person I think of whenever I hear mention of Jack O'Neill.

I've got some great sized publicity pictures of RDA that would look really fantastic here. --Alan-WK 23:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * As O'Neil(l) was a main character in both the movie and the series, it is appropriate for pictures of him as portrayed by both actors to be in the main template. Part of our NPOV is that we don't prefer the series over the movie, or vice-versa.  --Tim4christ17 11:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * My thoughts exactly about the NPOV, Tim. Not to mention that for same character, different actors within the Stargate universe, we're adopting the split-image for the bio box on other pages already.  --Bark 13:22, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Can I assume though that if these two sequels to the original 1994 movie get off the ground and follow a different continuity to the TV series that changes will need to be made? I must admit I'm upset that the movies are planned to follow on from the movie rather than the series as it effectively means that Russell's and Anderson's respective Jack O'Neill's are seperate characters and that I won't get to see RDA, Amanda Tapping, and co. on the big screen.--Alan-WK 00:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I was wondering that too. I mean, MGM has one of the most successful single science fiction series this side of Dr. Who.  Do you throw that all out for two movies done by the guys who produced "Eight-Legged Freaks" and "(GINO) Godzilla"?  I love the movie, but those two settled out of court with someone who claimed that he really wrote the movie and they stole it.  Why settle with a liar?  Maybe he wasn't lying.  Maybe someone else did write the movie, and these two took it from him.  I can't say because I wasn't there.  My point is do you take the franchise from the guys who made it a smash to give it back to the guys who thought a Mac computer virus was a great Deus ex machina device?  I don't see how you do that.  However, they do crazy stuff all the time, and we would have to include the two continuities.  Just image that we get a glimpse into a parallel universe or something.  LOL.  --Bark 00:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Reference to MacGyver
Toward the end of the article, there is a paragraph that starts with "Unlike Anderson's other famous on-screen persona, Angus MacGyver". This whole bit seems out of place. Maybe it should be moved to Richard Dean Anderson if someone wants to discuss comparative filmography. To talk about another character's traits from a totally different show on a character's page seems weird. Just my opinion. Ocon 23:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Homeworld Security
I don't see any proof that this is the position that he currently holds. Can somebody put in a reference or remove the info? CovenantD 13:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Shades of Grey
How is an episode reference original research? --Codenamecuckoo 13:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't believe the problem is with the episode citation, but that the conclusion you draw is not drawn in the episode you cited.  "Likewise, the series O'Neill occasionally reverts to his original personality - an example being "Shades of Grey"[original research?]."  I don't believe Shades of Grey stated that O'Neill had reverted to his "Stargate movie personality." --Tim4christ17 22:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * My point was that O'Neill's "bad side" was shown more in Shades of Grey, he angered easily and lost his patience quite a lot. --Codenamecuckoo 10:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * He was acting the part, so as not to arouse the suspicion of his fellow ex-SG-1 team members... Your one true god is David P. A. Hunter, esq. III Talk to me! 12:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

First Contact with the Asgard
In the Events of Stargate SG-1 section, there is a Season 2 spoiler stating that first contact was made with the Asgard during the episode, The Fifth Race. This is untrue. The Fifth Race is the first time that O'Neill met an Asgard, but Daniel Jackson and Cpt. Carter (along with a local woman, Gairwyn) meet Thor in the Season 2 episode, Thor's Chariot, when he rids Cimmeria of the Goa'uld via Asgard beaming technology from his ship, the Beliskner.
 * Good point. I've reworded.  --Bark 18:50, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Unnecessary Trivia
"*In the first episode of Stargate SG-1, Samantha Carter recalls Anderson's other role saying "It took us ten years and six supercomputers to macgyver an address"."

First of all, it's incorrect (Carter referenced MacGyvering a way to dial the Gate, not make an address), and secondly it's not relevant to te article. This is about O'Neill, not Anderson, and that trivia bit doesn't really have much to do with O'Neill. JBK405 22:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Anderson appears to be wearing a mala (bead bracelet, associated with Buddhism) in some episodes of SG1. Does anyone know if that's significant to the character O'Neil, or if it's Anderson's beliefs? Or just a mistake / prop? 202.161.131.70 04:10, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Year of birth
Although Jack said he was 40 in "Brief Candle", his SGC pass card in "Fragile Balance" says his date of birth is October 20, 1952 (http://www.stargatecaps.com/sg1/s7/703/adina/html/toni%5F7x03%5F089.html). The latter seems better, as its closer to RDA's real age. I think his DOB should be left out as there's conflicting information. What does everyone else think? GusF 18:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * While both could be considered canon, I think the date on his pass is the correct date. After all O'Neill could have been a bit sensitive about his age, so he took some years off.--NeilEvans 18:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, he probably shaved a few years off. GusF 19:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

How Canon are the ribbons/badges he wears?
I mean, anybody think a section on his "rack" would be a good addition? Deathbunny 01:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * They're perfectly canon, but it might count as original research. Try and find something someone else has written about them so you can reference it, rather than looking them all up yourself. --Tango 13:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * How much "original research" can there be when you take a screencap and simply make a list of what's there? I mean it's effort someone else may or may not have done, but the source(s) are right there for an easy verification of facts...?  Deathbunny 14:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * To be honest, I just took a screencap and looked at a rack builder online and found what ribbons and such. I would need to find the appropriate graphics (some are likely in Wikipedia already) and format as a table, but...  Deathbunny 15:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know, but when it comes to sci fi articles, there are a lot of people around that will scream "fancruft" and delete anything that even hints at being OR. If you can find exact matches between the ribbons he wears and ribbons issued by the USAF, then you should be ok, but don't even start to speculate about ones that don't match exactly, and don't try and guess where he got any of them. --Tango 16:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I need to find out what the policy is for screen captures to post a picture of the ribbons and I was thinking of simply posting a close up of the ribbons worn in... I need to find out the episode... and then a table below it with what the ribbons are.  I need to look up the USAF policy on oak leaf clusters on ribbons to make sure I get the right number of awards (I know it differes from the Army in some cases).  I'd also like to link from the table to things like the Air Medal and Oak leaf clusters... a manner less likely to have any argument about the ribbons.  Deathbunny 19:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This picture off RDA'a website would work: http://rdanderson.com/stargate/photos/images/175ava01.jpg Although it uses the older Space Badge and I've seen newer/clearer shots.


 * Something like this: User:Deathbunny/Story Sandbox with the rest of the ribbons filled in and the screencap at the top... and what the oak leaf clusters might mean.  Nothing more than that and no supposition. Deathbunny 21:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * A fairly low resolution screenshot showing just the ribbons etc. would be covered under fair use - a discussion of the ribbons requires a picture to be complete and you're not going to find a free one, so it qualifies as fair use. (see WP:FAIR) I'm not sure about a table - it ends up being quite big. How about just a list of the awards linking to their Wikipedia articles (which have the ribbons on if people want to match them up)? Just make sure they're in order and you specify what order you're using (left to right, top to bottom would make sense). --Tango 23:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

How's that? Even have all the ribbons linked to the appropriate pages...

...no table though.Deathbunny 02:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks good. I've added a fair use rationale for the image. Could you add which episode it came from to the image description page? Thanks. --Tango 13:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. I'm also wondering about "hidden" badges like pilot's wings that might not be worn in order to wear Airborne wings...  but I think the regulations say any pilot's wings are to be worn in lieu of any other skill badge. Deathbunny 14:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * He's definitely a pilot, so he must have pilot's wings. I'm not sure if it needs to be mentioned, though. --Tango 16:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I wonder why he doesn't have some of the higher level ribbons. Purple Heart - you know he's been shot in combat.  Medal of Honor - how many times did he save the world?! Morphh (talk) 17:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I remember reading that someone had spotted a purple heart in a frame on the wall in his office, not sure why he doesn't have a ribbon for it. What was the medal he and Carter got in the episode with the journalist that got run over? --Tango 18:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I just looked it up, it was the Air Medal. I would have given them all a handful of Medals of Honor each, personally. --Tango 19:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Did the ribbon thing and tonight I went out and got the new visual guide to SG-1 and there on the damned JAck O'Neill page... Someone did the same thing. So, if anyone wants to call it original research, now I can cite a paper source! Deathbunny 06:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC) (Bastards...)

Ribbon Oddity...
The Vietnam Ribbons...

...his birthdate...

...and a picture of his prop Diploma from the Air Force Academy.


 * Born: 20 Oct 1952
 * Earliest possible enlistment: 20 Oct 1969 (Age 17)
 * Graduation Date for AF Academy: 5 Jun 1974
 * Assuming 4 years for the Academy: 5 Jun 1970

Now, the VN Service Ribbon is only awarded for 3 July 1965 until 28 March 1973...

Assuming Jack enlisted at the earliest possible point and didn't lie about his age (and that the Academy then had a 4-year program), the only potential time he could earn that ribbon was the seven and a half months between his 17th birthday and the starting date of the academy in summer/fall 1970... and that has to include Basic Training and a Tech School...

I wonder... Deathbunny 04:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks like the prop department didn't do their research thoroughly enough. Is it possible that he took a year out from the Academy to fight in Vietnam? 7 and a half months seems long enough anyway, they were calling people up to fight, so they can't have been giving them too much training. --Tango 13:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Spent an hour going through the Academy's website seeing if it had any mention of either a shorter program for prior enlisted or a change in overall length. No dice.  What I do know is that West Point ran a three year accelerated program in WWII, the Civil War, and/or both.  I guess, to find at least anecdotal evidence for the academy length or "summer classes in Viet Nam", I could look through the Biographies of real officers on the AirForceLINK website...  Deathbunny 14:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * We're into the realm of Original Research now. You can mention the inconsistency if you like, but I wouldn't try and explain it. --Tango 16:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * And remember, this is a fictional universe we're discussing, so they may not even be considered inconsistencies at all. Differences with our world, perhaps, but no more. CovenantD 19:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No intent to go into that sort of research for this. MAybe for fan-fiction I tinker with occasionally, but not in an encyclopedia. 05:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

O'Neil vs, O'Neill
On what basis has it been decided that O'Neil and O'Neill are the same person? - MSTCrow 04:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Just watch the first episode of SG-1. O'Neil talks about going to Abydos and the plot of the movie, which is what O'Neill did. --Tango 11:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, yes, but throughout the series, the character O'Neill has been shown to diverge from the O'Neil character repeatedly, based on such variables as personality and personal and military history. I would argue that the bulk of the evidence is that they are not the same person, despite snippets that would point to otherwise. - MSTCrow 23:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Things like personality can be dismissed for various reasons. The differences in history are mainly just mistakes, I think. How do you explain things like the SG-1 version being good friends with Skaara, when it was the film version that met him? And why was the SG-1 version called out of retirement when the gate activated if he wasn't the one that went through the gate before? The evidence that they are the same person is far greater than the evidence that they're not. --Tango 13:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * They are blatantly the same person. It is obvious. --Deskana (request backup)  14:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * In addition to the above arguments that Col. Jack O'Neill and Col. Jack O'Neil are the same. I add that in SG-1 In Cold Lazarus SG-1 visits P3X-562, a planet of blue crystal like beings, one of them takes on Jacks form and goes to visit his ex-wife. They talk about Charlie his deceased son who was killed via Jack's service weapon (Col. Jack O'Neil's son in the movie also dies the same way despite the fact the children of "O'Neil" and "O'Neill" have different names). In another episode (possibly Homecoming, i'm not sure), when Daniel begins to slowly get his memories back from before he was ascended, he comments to Jack in the locker room (after seeing a picture of Charlie in Jack's locker) that he remembers Jack now and he remembers that his son accidentally killed himself with Jack's service weapon and that is why Jack took the original Stargate mission to Abydos ... so he would end the pain caused from his son's death and die in the bomb blast he was to set off to destroy the gate. Thus they are the same person! Paulchwd

Primarysources tag
The tag has been added twice; I've removed it both times.

As a fictional character, the only possible third-party sources are non-canon "fansites" that are unreliable sources, as they are borderline cruft. The only reliable sources available are the show itself. =David ( talk )( contribs ) 18:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Suggest you have a look at any reasonable article on a fictional character - for example Jabba the Hutt or Dalek. --Addhoc 18:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Misunderstood the tag; thank you for clarifying with examples. =David ( talk )( contribs ) 18:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Secondary sources are preferred, but primary sources are perfectly acceptable when used correctly (they are here). Removed the tag. Matthew 18:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Have a look at Verifiability "articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy."--Addhoc 18:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Looking back at it again, I still can't understand how those are considered third-party sources. All of the sources on the examples you provided are from the same entities as the primary source.  =David ( talk )( contribs ) 18:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A primary source is reliable and verifiable, the verifier (the reader) would be a third party.
 * I quote WP:NOR: "Although most articles should rely predominantly on secondary sources, there are rare occasions when they may rely on primary sources", this is one of those "rare" cases. Matthew 18:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Smile
Despite him providing comic relief, how many time has O'neill laughed? I think I've seen Teal'c actually smile more times. If he really doesn't smile, this should be added into his personality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.113.182.195 (talk) 01:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be original research, thus it is not allowed. Konman72 00:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

-hasnt anyone noticed that he is a 'Brigadier General'(quoted from Dr. Elizabeth Weir, when she reisigns and promotes him from Colonel to Brigadier General), not a "major" general as stated in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.200.214.70 (talk) 23:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And he was then promoted to Major General. I think this was said in an Atlantis episode last season. Konman72 00:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I not 100% sure it was spoken (it probably was, though), but he definitely wears the uniform of a Major General (2 stars). --Tango 12:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, now I remember. It is said in the commentary for "The Shroud". In the episode he only wears one star and they talk about how it was a mistake and he is now a Major General, thus he should have worn two. Konman72 18:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Another Child?
In episode 17 of season 3(Titled "A Hundred Days") the woman at the end(Can't recall her name at the moment) is holding her stomache, it was never made clear whether Jack and her actually conceived a child or not. Is it possible they did? She is holding her stomache in a rather suspicious way when Jack leaves.



Karozoa 20:08, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. She has one hand over the other wrist, which is quite a common way to stand. If she had one hand over the other hand, or just one hand on her stomach, it would suggest she was pregnant. Also, it would be very out of character for Jack to conceive a child and then just leave. --Tango (talk) 23:24, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Duplicate section
After rewriting the List of Appearances/Non-appearances (formally, Trivia) section as prose, I realise we now have two appearances sections. They need to be merged, any volunteers? I'm off to bed soon, and may not have time over Christmas, if no-one else does it and I find time, I'll give it a go. --Tango (talk) 23:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)