Talk:Jackson Free Press

Source work
JFP using its own wiki as source within its Wikipedia article is not within policy of Wikipedia. --  ALLSTAR    ECHO  05:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And good job finding a 3rd party source for Mississippi Free Press/Hazel Brannon Smith. --  ALLSTAR    ECHO  05:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Circulation figures should be in the Editor & Publisher International Year Book (Part 2). -- Orange Mike  |  Talk  16:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

What is a reliable source?
Our concern here is with self-published sources in general. To quote from the relevant guidelines, ''...self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources....

Material from self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as:
 * it is relevant to their notability;
 * it is not contentious;
 * it is not unduly self-serving;
 * it does not involve claims about third parties;
 * it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
 * there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it;
 * the article is not based primarily on such sources.

Thus, such matters as circulation figures, which could be considered subject to self-interest, are not something that can be sourced to the JFP's own blog. The source of the name, on the other hand, seems to be an acceptable item. -- Orange Mike  |  Talk  16:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm just dumbfounded that the info isn't on their own web site, in any form other than off in their own wiki. How does JFP present ad-rates without readership and circulation numbers? Having purchased advertising before, I know this is an essential part of ad-rate packaging so that the publication/station can justify its rates. Brian, if you all have this as part of an ad-rate package, maybed PDF it and upload it to JFP's site, then reference it? Honestly I don't think it's an important component of the article other than in relation to JFP's own-going "battle" with The Clarion-Ledger. From what I understand, readership/circulation numbers aren't included in most newspaper/magazine articles on Wikipedia - but that's not saying it can't/shouldn't be included. Just that maybe without a source, it isn't that big of a deal in the bigger scope of the article. I can attest to JFP's importance here in Jackson, Mississippi. That's not in question. --  ALLSTAR    ECHO  16:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Unless somebody can come up with a different verifiable third-party source, we have to use the most current figures available. If the figures at Ulrich's are several years out of date, then Ulrich's needs to be notified. This is a prime example of what we mean by reliable sources, vs. the JFP's unattested claims (printrun is not circulation; there's always spoilage, samples, etc.) -- Orange Mike  |  Talk  17:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Folks, there seems to be some confusion here about the media world and advertising. The JFP has ample ways to prove our circulation to advertisers, most of which are local. Ulrich's is not a primary source of circulation figures for our paper, and it is one of many requests for information that newsweeklies get every year. Also, there has long been advertising information on the JFP site, which has included Media Audit figures (and includes the Jackson Market Study done by The Clarion-Ledger). These not *unattested* claims, at least nowhere but here. There has long been a Jackson Free Press FAQ that has included information right on the site that allstarecho has repeatedly challenged or deleted. To be honest, I was not aware that this information was appropriate to source, but it makes complete sense that the newspaper's site itself would be an acceptable primary source, as it is for circulation for other publications on Wikipedia.
 * http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/advertising.php
 * http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/comments.php?id=5061_0_21_0_C
 * Anyone who wants faxes of actual documents about any circulation/print figures, please call 601.362.6121 ext. 3. You can't get much more primary than that.


 * Thanks for all of your diligent efforts at accuracy. I'm learning a lot from you all. Cheers. User talk: jfpwebguy


 * I assume you've got some sort of non-disclosure agreement with Media Audit which precludes you from posting the actual documents anywhere? -- Orange Mike  |  Talk  17:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC) (has written for his local AAN paper himself)
 * I'm not privy to the contracts, etc. (above my pay grade), but the point is that that information is shown via computer presentations to advertisers and such. We can share our results, which we do (including in our FAQ, etc.). But the companies that do audits don't want the publications audited publishing all the information on the Internet for obvious reasons. The funny thing is that the kinds of companies that just publish lists of circ figures aren't auditing. They're asking for it. See the issue here? And again, it's not like we're claiming 1.7 million. If we leave off our print run number, most people would think it's much bigger based on the JFP's footprint, so it's not like that number is live or die for us. We just want it to be accurate, and not be the wrong number. Fair enough? User talk: jfpwebguy

After reviewing all of the information, I am going to have to partly agree with OrangeMike. While I don't believe a 2,000 difference in the readership is an "unduly self-serving" amount, some people think it does. At this point, it will be best to revert back to the 15,000 figure, and source the Ulrich hardcopy, noting the date that the figure is from. This should stay in place until a neutral, verifiable, third party reliable source can be found. - Rjd0060 (talk) 18:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you do the honors, rjd? -- Orange Mike  |  Talk  18:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * just a comment: Ulrich's is normally a year or two out of date, but it looks like the difference is not significant. And audited figures reprinted in a publication are in my opinion very reliable--the rates for advertising depend on it, and given the availability of the figures to subscribers, it would be an obvious and fatal imposition for any publisher to misrepresent it. DGG (talk) 18:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The 15,000 figure is inaccurate and would be misrepresenting JFP circulation even though we have stated otherwise repeatedly. If that is the decision, please remove the figure from the wiki page. That would be more ethical than insisting on inaccurate data appearing from a publication that the JFP does not submit to. Jfpwebguy (talk) 18:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The question still unanswered is, if it's so easy to fax copies out, why can't a PDF copy be made and posted on JFP. Further I'd note that the Jackson Free Press FAQ web page mentioned above and stated to have "long been" there on their site, and used as source in this article itself, shows a creation date of November 19, 2007 at 9:49am by admin1. So I'd hardly call that page as having "long been" there. --  ALLSTAR    ECHO  04:53, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not sure why both could not be on there: "circulation is estimated to be between 15,000 and 17,000 weekly copies" and source both numbers.  Gtstricky Talk or C 18:19, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

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