Talk:Jacksonville, Florida/Archive 1

Jax Natives
Question: Who the heck is Tyler James Andres (born 1991)? Seems to me like someone who's vandalizing and putting himself in the Famous Jax Natives section. I Googled and can't find anything on this person (who is age 14). I tried to erase him from the list but he (or whoever) put him back up. Can we get some clarity on this? Thank you. User:kevinsnow 08:49, Jul 15 2005
 * I searched the document for that name--copied and pasted--and it didn't show up. Problem solved, I guess. HereToHelp 19:24, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

What is the deal with the vandalism of the pages and references to Stephen Dare? Some of the stuff has been downright libelous and ridiculous. Dare's academic work is primarily known outside the circles of Jacksonville, although he is quite well known in the city itself. This shouldnt be grounds for vandalism.

Population
Under the demographics section, the following statement is found: "As of the census of 2006, there were 735,617 people". However, that is information in accordance with the 2000 census. Have I interpreted this information wrong, or is it an incorrect statement? Also, I noticed this statement: "As of 2006, the city proper has an estimated population of 831,338". The July 1, 2005 estimate from the census was 782,623. The population seems to increase within the city proper at about 10,000 per year. I do not think this information is correct. Ajwebb 22:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed the 2006 estimate and replaced it with the actual 2005 estimate from the Census Ajwebb 22:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The following statement at the beginning of the article is inaccurate: "Jacksonville is the most populous city in the state of Florida and the thirteenth most populous city in the United States."


 * Miami Beach has 5.4 million people, and Tampa Bay has around 2.5. Jacksonville only has a little over 1 million.  --Khatores 07:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No. In 2004 Miami Beach had a population of 89,104. The Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-West Palm Beach MSA has a population of 5.4 million, but the largest city in the MSA, Miami, has a population of 379,724. Similarly, the Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater MSA has a population of 2,589,637, but the largest city in the MSA, Tampa, has a population of 333,040. The City of Jacksonville has a population of 782,623, while the Jacksonville MSA has a population of 1.3 million. --  Donald Albury ( Talk )  10:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, I stand corrected. I looked into this further and apparently that's the case.  Consolidation has served us well.  :-)  --Khatores 05:33, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I see that someone has reinserted the figure for 2006. Does anyone have a citation for this figure knowing that the latest estimates was last year? --Moreau36 01:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I live in Jacksonville, Florida and as you can tell there is clearly alot of people in this state.


 * Archived because discussion had ended and a Todo was created Hampton (talk) 23:59, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Economy > Gizmondo
Gizmondo has folded and gone out of business. Apparently it was a front company for the Swedish mob.


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gizmondo#Company
 * http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-fg-ferrari15may15,0,790067,full.story


 * Archived because article is from 2006 Hampton (talk) 23:59, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Neighborhoods - Separate article
I propose that a new article be created, entitled "Neighborhoods of Jacksonville, Florida". Jacksonville is simply so geographically huge that this section, which is already quite large, despite being in its infancy, is simply going to overwhelm the casual reader looking for info on Jax. A brief synopis (the initial paragraph probably would be fine) should remain here. Any thoughts? Unschool 01:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what level of detail you're envisioning, the section could probably be trimmed from its current state. "contains two churches and a school", etc, is not particularly encyclopedic. -- nae'blis (talk) 06:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. But the neighborhoods in Jacksonville remind me of the sections of Trantor in Asimov's Prelude to Foundation. While all cities of any size have different neighborhoods with different flavors, due to the sheer scope of Jacksonville's geography, many of its neighborhoods operate as if they are not even a part of Jacksonville.  I have lived in many locales, but I have never seen such variety in one town anywhere.  It is intrinsic to the history and culture of Jacksonville, yet including the information in the Jacksonville history article would similarly bog down that article.  Hence, my suggestion for a separate article.  But I think listing schools and churches is unnecessary, unless those are worthy of an article on their own (e.g., Jacksonville's First Baptist Church, which is I think one of the two largest churches in the US, or Stanton College Prep, reputedly the best public school in the US).  What say you? Unschool 16:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not from Jacksonville, actually (my girlfriend is, and I just visited for the first time last weekend). I was struck by how large the city/metro is, but it's very similar to my own, Kansas City, Missouri (350 or so sq. mi in the City, more like 1000 sq. mi. in the Kansas City Metropolitan Area). And I don't see a reason to identify more than the most prominent neighborhoods (Westport, River Market, Northland, Waldo, etc), rather than trying to identify all of them. Our FOCUS assessments did that work for us, after all... -- nae'blis (talk) 16:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. The Neighborhoods section is extremely bloated at this point. Needs to be cleaned up and a seperate article created. kevinsnow 07:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Request for neighborhood expansion
I think someone should write a little subsection about Cedar Hills in the Westside, as it was one of the more upscale parts of the city in the 1950s and 1960s, but declined somewhat in recent decades. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 02:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Todo created Hampton (talk) 23:59, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Thunderstorm picture
A picture in the climate section has the caption "A summer afternoon thunderstorm over the Jacksonville skyline", yet the photo apparently shows a completely blue sky. I'm not a meteorologist, but I don't see any thunderstorms in that picture. The caption seems somewhat mistaken. --207.203.80.15 23:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, that's what a fair deal of the thunderstorms look like from a distance, a big blue mass. They darken as they intensify and that image is rather typical for your average summer storm. If you view the large version you can see the rain in the downtown area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.111.139.130 (talk • contribs)

Segregation and racial issues
There is much more the the history of Jacksonville that Racial Segregation. As an example the French Hugueonots under the leadership of Charles Ribualt established Fort Caroline which was later destroyed by the Spanish in St Augustine. Jacksonville has been a major player throughout the history of the state of Florida. Having one short paragraph about 2 high school names and therby implying that it is a hotbed of racism is not only untrue but irresponsible. I grew up in New Jersey and find that the racism is much more prevelant in NJ than in Jacksonville. No it is not perfact but Jacksonville and its citizens have made great strides in race relations. As time goes on there will be even greater strides made. There are many cities/counties throught the former Confederacy that have buildings, schools, etc named for Lee and Forrest. ( Not to mention the numerous town and county names for Lee, Forrest and other Confederate Generals.) It is not unique to Jacksonville, FL. In fact there is a Robert E Lee Park near Baltimore and a Confederate monument in Baltimore as well.

I do not understand why people think that everything about Confedrate generals is "racist." i understand why that might make some people upset, but this is NOT NPOV. Paul3144 16:01, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Naming a high school after the founder of a racist terror organization is noteworthy, almost as worthy as a high school named for Adolf Hitler or Osama bin Laden. Just because Forrest was a a general officer in a rebellion does not give him a free pass to start an illegal terrorist organization and have the world ignore it, nor does Hitler's heroism in World War I give him a free pass to have the world ignore his genocide.
 * However, I would not object to the removal of the references to "Robert E. Lee" High School and "Confederate Park" if you strongly feel that it would improve the neutrality of the article.
 * Jacksonville continues to have very strained race relations. The first serious black candidate for mayor, Nat Glover, had his campaign headquarters vandalized [1] with the words "NO NIGGER MAYOR" on May 2, 2003. Matt Carlucci, a white Republican defeated in the open primary, had his business vandalized the same evening with "NIGGER LOVER" probably because he endorsed Glover.
 * If you wish to go back further in time, we can talk about the "Ax Handle Saturday" of August 27, 1960. Local racist white males (including some Ku Klux Klan members) gathered in Hemming Park with baseball bats and ax handles. These white men unleashed a reign of violence and terror on civil rights demonstrators who were conducting a sit-ins. The police did nothing. [2]
 * African-Americans in Jacksonville were denied healthcare (see Brewster Hospital), voting rights, and were treated as second class citizens at music halls, lavatories, golf courses, and water fountains.
 * To ignore this history, and not report it, would be a true violation of the NPOV policy. --Hcheney 17:51, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Do other Southern cities have similar sections about segregation? I don't think it should be made such a prominent feature of the Jacksonville entry unless the same is true of Atlanta, Birmingham, Montogomery, etc. Jgalea84 23:34, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * Atlanta has at least a paragraph on the matter, noted segregationist Eugene T. "Bull" Connor of Birmingham doesn't even have a stub article, a good deal of the Birmingham & Montgomery segregation history is in the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing and American Civil Rights Movement articles. The mere fact there is inadequate information in other articles does not justify removing a relevant part of Jacksonville's history.
 * Maybe a civil rights movement WikiProject would be in order? --Hcheney 01:39, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I did not mean to suggest that any of the info about Jacksonville currently in the entry re: segregation be removed; as far as I can tell, it is completely factual. I do however think that the way the information is portrayed is suggestive of the fact that Jacksonville is still a city which embraces racism and segregation, which is untrue and unfair to the vast majority of Jacksonville's residents who abhor such ideology.  I get the feeling that rather than simply stating facts, you are subtly attempting to editorialize your feelings on race relations in the city.  Granted, race relations are a very important subject for EVERY American city, and Jacksonville especially, but those facts can be described in such a way that recognizes the strives that north Florida and especially Jacksonville have achieved.  I think your suggestion that some sort of civil rights project is in order is a good one and would be glad to contribute to it, and at any rate I plan on researching and fleshing out the colonial and territorial history of Jacksonville, which is shamefully lacking at this juncture, as my schedule allows.Jgalea84 06:34, Feb 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree. There needs to be some positives to balance the negatives I listed. I will try to find some objective material regarding improvements of race relations in Jacksonville. --Hcheney 20:35, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

In the case of Nathan Bedford Forrest the term is accurate and NPOV, he was the first Grand Wizard of the Klan and there is a local high school named after him. I do think the entire section on segregation is a little much, especially considering the lack of other historical information. I tried to rectify that but Jax has a lot of history that is still missing form this entry. -SheikYerBooty 16:54, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * I wasn't aware that Forrest High School's name was a source of controversy. I mean, I know who he was, but both of my sisters graduated from that school (classes of '87 and '88, respectively) and I think the controversy may be a bit overplayed. Isn't there a big black student population, as well? TheCustomOfLife 02:17, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm not disputing the facts, just the fact that the segration subsection is overkill and casts Jacksonville in a negitive light. The information should be in the history section in cronological order with other historical information. I'll do that and remove the NPOV, and we can later put more information in the article. Paul3144 22:50, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Should there not be a picture of Jacksonville, since its "natural beauty" is mentioned? Most cities of her size have an image in the article.


 * There was one but it was removed due to copyright infringement. Mike H 04:01, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)


 * Good news, we now have one that works for us. HereToHelp 19:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


 * For some odd reason, someone keeps inserting a disproportionate amount of text dedicated to Jacksonville and racism. For some reason, Wikipedia keeps promoting a disproportionate amount of space on its webpage for Jacksonville be dedicated to racism. No city is perfect - and in an effort to promote objective, informative reporting, I am requesting that the unusually large amount of text dedicated to Jacksonville and racism be deleted in its entirety or at least to an extent that reflects the truth - which is that there is more to read about jacksonville in one page than racism. Jacksonville deserves better Wikipedia. Please fix this.


 * There is only one paragraph dedicated to the subject at this point. I don't keep adding it, you keep taking it out and I restore it. I think one paragraph about specific local events is okay. Articles for other important Southern cities, like Miami and Atlanta, have a similar amount of space on the subject, if not more. --Cúchullain t/ c 03:40, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * one page for jacksonville, and an entire paragraph of the ONE page is dedicated to racism and jacksonville. something just isn't right with this picture.


 * Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I really can't say anything I haven't already said, except that there isn't just one page for Jacksonville, but several (History of Jacksonville, Florida, Great Fire of 1901, Mayport, etc.), and that if you printed out this article, it would actually run several pages, while the section you're referring to would remain at one paragraph.--Cúchullain t/ c 05:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Hurricane
I don't know why someone moved the statement that the area has not been hit by a hurricane since 1964. "Impacted by" and "brushed by" doesn't cut it. The truth is that Jax has not been hit by a hurricane since 1964. Mike H 22:30, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, there was Hurricane Floyd in '99. That destroyed the pier, although that's technically in Jacksonville beach. I guess what you mean is that there's been no landfall aywhere near Jacksonville since '64, but we (I'm a Jacksonville native) have still felt our share. HereToHelp 13:36, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
 * jax beach is jacksonville--andy 00:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Some points about Jacksonville
You are right.. if we are talking about hurricanes in Florida, it needs to be more than a 'brush' by.. If anything, a new article should be created that lists during what storms and what dates different cities experienced tropical storm or hurricane force winds. Casually naming off close calls of hurricanes in Florida would be comparable to naming off every 1.5 earthquake in California.. or how about every hard freeze in New England. If you want to list anything rare.. how about the last blizzard.

As for race relations.. sure in the past there were racial problems in Jacksonville and the South in general.. but go look at the article 'The Southern United States'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Southern_States

''Race relations continue to mark a heavily contested issue in the South; however, the most recent significant race riots in the USA were outside the South—the 1992 Los Angeles riots and the 2001 Cincinnati riots. Race relations in the US have improved since schools were desegregated in the 1960's (however, many districts in the region have successfully sued to end forced busing since 1990; while this has caused some de facto "re-segregation", on average most neighborhoods in the region are still more integrated than those of the Midwest and Northeast).''

In fact, there has not been a race riot in the South since the 1960's, whereas there have been several in the North and the West of the USA (see race riot). Many people find this surprising given the desire of some Southerners to retain the Confederate flag as part of their cultural heritage."

I think the myth of the modern racist South is humorous. I live in a southern city with a population of 48% whites and 48% blacks with very little racial tension. 24.26.28.254 06:06, 29 July 2005 (UTC);


 * About the "no race riots since the 1960s," I have to say that's simply untrue. Pensacola, Florida had a race riot in 1975. Mike H (Talking is hot) 21:11, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

General Forrest did not found a terrorist group. When he founded the KKK it was much more a fraternal group. The Klan of Forrest was not the Klan we think of today. Beside there are much more current racial issues to deal with. Jacksonville still has several restricted private clubs. Both Timaquana Country Club and San Jose Country Club have no black members. The Florida Yacht Club was involved in a lawsuit with the State when they insisted on keeping black out.

Most people probably don't remember that Episcopal High School was founded as a white only school after the Brown v Board decision.


 * I've seen both sides of Jacksonville working in social services, and Jacksonville is quite an interesting microcosm of racial issues. The Times-Union recently printed an article with a survey in which 73% of blacks, vs. 43% of whites, said that Jacksonville has a racial problem.  It's the second most desegregated city in the US, but also has a 23% black population.  However, massive numbers of black and whites still live in poverty in essentially segregated ghettos.  This is a defining issue in Jacksonville, and it's something that should be explored in the article.  Otherwise, it must be about some other city - one named Jacksonville, but without the 800-lb gorilla. Khatores 06:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Clean Up
Just noticed that someone vandalized quite a few things.

looks like these two edits made most of the changes:


 * 1) (cur) (last)  19:55, 18 September 2005 82.117.194.66
 * 2) (cur) (last) 19:44, 18 September 2005 82.117.194.66

I'd fix them, but I have to leave and don't have time to look up how to revert to a previous version.

I'll try to remember to do it later


 * This has now been done by (another) anonomous user. If a sysop wants to look into it, maybe they could ban user "82.117.194.66". HereToHelp talk 22:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Who deleted the picture?
It was a very old picture of downtown Jacksonville in the early 1900s. Being so old I do not think the copyright holder would be alive nor would the copyright likely still have legal hold. I am angry because I was never notified of this deletion. The picture was a good picture and if you want to go around fanatically deleting pictures then go f--k yourselves --Revolución (talk) 21:38, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Go back in the edit history and retrive it if noone else has. HereToHelp 19:32, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I went and did that and the URL is unrecognized. I guess it's gone for good...sorry.


 * It's okay. It wasn't a very clear picture anyway. But I appreciate that you checked. --Revolución (talk) 01:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * My site has a collection of old J-ville photos though the copywrite holders, if any, are mostly unknown. http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp00054.jpg  --The Viper 01:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)