Talk:Jaco Pastorius/Archive 1

Fact check, please:
In the "Early Life section," paragraph 1 calls Jaco the first of his parents' 3 children. 2 'graphs down we hear about his older brother Gregory.66.157.32.82 19:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

What the fuck?
This article is abysmal. Sources barely quoted, complete arse wank article. Nothing but fanboy writing. "Jaco excelled at all sports he tried... He waa injured by a jealous quarterback." How is any of that relevant? its relevant cuz jaco wanted to be a drummer like his father but cuz he ingured his wrist he couldnt play right nd switched to bass
 * It's a lot better now.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 10:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed to the "what the fuck" factor, any edits that seem to pursue the fact that Jaco only being the best in opinion rather than fact and needing to be either removed, revised, or edited any any way seem to get the "Jaco fan base" on the page and remove any and all of such matters. Jaco may have been nominated in the top 10 but he is not alone and needs to give credit where credit is due, he along with Cliff Burton have both influenced bass playing so greatly you may call them immortal through their music. It is disgusting to see user Dinobass removing such factors. 19:11, 3 Dec 2009
 * Look, Cliff Burton was an extremely talented bass player, but this article is not about him. The article you're looking for is here... Cliff Burton Catfish Jim and the soapdish
 * (talk) 00:40, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Other than both of these chaps being bass players unless I am very much mistaken there is little in common between the two - no cross influence - no long enduring friendship - in short there is really no reason whatsoever to mention Cliff Burton in this article.  Furthermore, Jaco was inducted into the down beat jazz hall of fame - Cliff Burton was inducted into the 'rock and roll' hall of fame as part of metallica - so the second attempt to include Cliff into this article was additionally incorrect as they are not both listed in the same 'hall of fame' Dinobass (talk) 07:29, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

This article is still filled with fanboy exaggeration. Naturally, every musical artist page that has "Wikipedia warns that this page is too positive and sounds like advertising - it needs to be rewritten" is actually just mildly positive - while every page, like this one, that says things equivalent to "he can walk on water and invented the Internet" - has no warning on the page at all.

Just for example, Stanley Clarke solo fusion jazz bass albums were earlier than Jaco's... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.196.198.238 (talk) 02:20, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

POV on Jaco's high regard
Guy's a legend in my book but this is exremely POV.

Almost every serious electric bass player considers Jaco a legend, to say the least-- is that so POV?

That's no POV--that's fact. He's a legend. You don't completely change the harmonic, rhythmic, and melodic language of an instrument (and don't forget the new standard for technical prowess on the bass), all while being an incredible composer and arranger, sensitive accompanist, constantly grooving bassist, and not become a legend. I'd sat you're right on in calling him a legend.

"He is considered by many to be the greatest electric bassist to have lived." That's borderline POV. At the very least, it is downright weasel language. Personally, I'm not willing to put him in my Top 5, but if that got put in the article, it would be deleted immediately. I'd be willing to let this stay if you could show me some well-researched/credible lists or polls that put him at the top, but for now, I'm going to remove it. Fishyfred 03:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

There's no question he belongs in the top 5 and I personally can’t think of anyone who’s better. Can someone name a contender? Whether or nor he was actually the first person to remove the frets from an electric bass is hardly the point: he was the first person to play the electric bass in a style that completely utilised the possibilities that a fretless instrument allows. And surely his greatness is evinced by whom he played with in his short career: Pat Metheny , Weather Report , Joni Mitchell , Mike Stern  - they all wanted this crazy cat in their bands because he was completely unique and prodigiously gifted.

Personal POV puts John Entwistle at Numero Uno and Jaco a solid Dos....of course.... I've only been playing bass for thirty years, what the hell do I know.......  Personal POV about the subject shouldn't enter into a discussion on what to put into an encyclopedia. I don't particularly care for the Rolling Stones, but I'd be an idiot to  doubt their status as rock legends. Anyone who doesn't know about a particular subject turns to an encyclopedia to find out accurate information about that subject. It is generally accepted in the music world that Jaco was a legendary bassist who truly revolutionized the role of his instrument. Anybody turning to Wikipedia to read up on Jaco should have that information available to them. Jaco66 04:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hear hear!! Could not have said it better. And, whoever is not signing your name, please do. All it takes is four tildes (like this one: ~ ) and it will sign your name. Not to do so is really rude.--leahtwosaints (talk) 12:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Marcus Miller
I deleted the part in which it was said that some consider MM to be a mere imitator of JP. There might be some people who think this, but i think it should be noted who these people are before reference is made to it. The fact that MM is primarily known for his slapping and that JP never used this technique harms the validity of this opinion. It has to stem from someone with a lot of proven knowledge about bassplaying to make this opinion a valuable one i'd say. Sure JP influenced MM, but influence doesn't make one an imitator. --Vunzmstr 15:59, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

A discography...
...would be helpful

I didn't add the "Live in Italy" and "Live at NYC", since I consider those to be bootlegs...
 * I just added a discography, as complete as I could.

I have a doubt anyway, should I (we) consider his work with Joni Mitchell as a collaboration, or as a member of the band like he was in Weather Report?  Hmmmm...interesting question! Even though he didn't really "write" the songs with Joni, he had free reign to play what he felt, and his playing was a huge part of the distinct flavor that Hejira, Don Juan, and Mingus have. One might say he collaborated with her on those three records. But he was also part of that band at that time, since he did appear live on stage with her. However he played on only one song, "Mood Swings," on Mike Stern's album, so we would call that an appearance rather than a collaboration. Thoughts? Jaco66 03:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Fretless bass guitar
Jaco Pastorius was not the first fretless bass player? Most of music magazines that I read from 1984 to 1994, reported that Pastorius invented the fretless bass guitar. I am asking because Wikipedia says that David Gilmour played fretless bass in several Pink Floyd's tracks in early 1970s.

Any Americans out there?? or this is just a brit crap and trap?Brian Wilson 15:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

What I've heard is that he wanted to play double bass, but his bass split all the time because of Philadelphia weather, so one day he came home drunk and took out his frets with a screwdriver. I don't know how real this is though. It's still a great story. Gnome


 * Heh, nice story. Jaco told Guitar Player in 1984 that his fretless bass had the frets removed by its previous owner ... and also that he had to use wood filler and boat varnish to fix up the fretboard as a result.  Renaissongsman 18:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I heard many years ago that Bill Wyman was the first, and in the following interview he claims he made a fretless c. 1959: . His Wikipedia page also carries this claim. I have seen really old Stones footage where he was on fretless, though he was not playing in the post-Jaco flashy fretless style, of course!


 * I'm looking at a Jaco Pastorius article in "The Bass Player Book" 1999 (edited by Karl Coryat) and in an interview with Charlie Brent of the C.C. Riders, he says "I remember when [Jaco] started playing fretless. We were somewhere in the Midwest, and Jaco said 'Man, I wanna try one of those fretless basses.'" He goes on to say that Jaco went out to a hardware store, picked up some pliers and wood compound, and proceeded to tear the frets out of the only bass he had on the road. That was 5 years after he started playing bass, thus he wasn't playing fretless from the beginning. Also, that quote by Jaco shows that he wasn't the first one to play the fretless bass.198.145.75.176 10:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The Ampeg AUB-1 (scroll bass) was a factory fretless available as early as 1967. Rick Danko is playing one on the Band's "Rock of Ages" recording. 66.157.32.82 19:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Invented the fretless bass? That's nonsense! I played fretless electric bass before Jaco did! And I sure as hell didn't invent it. I removed the frets on a Teisco bass in 1970. By all reports Jaco removed his frets in the "early 70s".  Fender sold fretless P basses before that. Because Jazz basses were not as popular Jaco had to remove the frets. But fretless electric basses were on the market a long time before Jaco made his bass fretless. DavidRavenMoon (talk) 00:54, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

His Death.
This article on Jaco Pastorious's death is false. Jaco was said to be pushed of a balcony of a club by the owner and was killed.

Jaco66 03:32, 24 February 2007 (UTC) I don't agree with this, and indeed have never heard this story before. It is quite well-documented that Luc Havan beat Jaco outside the club. He served jail time for it, which ought to lay to rest the balcony account.

--- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vashkan (talk • contribs) 05:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

After re-reading the events of Jaco's death, of which I have some familiarity, I find a rather remarkable synchronicity virtually twenty one years after his murder. I couldn't help but feel an impulse to share it with those who cared so much about this man and his music.

The last piece on the Heavy Weather album is Jaco's piece "Havona". The man who murdered Jaco was named Luc "Havan". While this particular coincidence is intriguing, what is even more amazing is what "Havona" means. This is my assumption, but Jaco was an extraordinarily brilliant man who was known to read Nietzsche and other philosophers. Clearly he was also reading The Book of Urantia, in which "Havona" is the central and main universe where "Heaven" is located and where the God of the known universe's home dwells. To me this is fascinating, and implies that Jaco's death, while tragic, has significance and deep meaning if we look deeper at the underlying order to the cosmos. I think Jaco would have agreed, in his more sober moments, that the all existence has a mysterious order that is larger than our limited perspective. His spirit is extant and can never be extinguished. Vashkan (talk) 05:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * holy' bjesus --IRONY-POLICE (talk) 21:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Cite request re "genius" claim
In response to the request for a citation supporting the claim that Pastorius was regarded as a genius, here is one such cite: Chris Jisi The Legacy Of The 'World's Greatest Bass Player' Deepens With A New Edition Of The Essential Biography Bass Player 1 March 2006 p 41.Robma 22:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)  Herbie Hancock regards Jaco as a "genius" on Portrait of Jaco (Holiday Park Records, 2002). This is the quote from the interview, which is on CD# 2, track# 17: "Jaco was a genius. Jaco was really a genius...I don't know anybody who would question that." Jaco66 03:15, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Ninja
Was Luc Havan a ninja? I don't know much about Pastorius's life or death, but something tells me that he wasn't a ninja....71.175.17.13 10:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Diagnosis not correct
Jaco was diagnosed as BiPolar II. Most common type. Manic Depressive IS Bipolar II and so needs to be corrected as redundant.

71.239.180.89 02:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)UMGrad86

What Video???
"By this point, Jaco had been in the throes of mental illness, drug and alcohol abuse and had been homeless for a stretch. He appears shaky, his playing is uneven and he admits he can't play some of his old licks. The video is not structured and tends to jump around from one subject to the next."

What video? The preceding text has nothing to do with any video... Overlook1977 (talk) 01:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: I believe the preceding text is a reference to the DCI Instructional Video (1985 video?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.220.3.174 (talk) 18:37, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Family?
Shouldn't there be a mention of his children somewhere in the article? I feel that it is very noteworthy that, I think, two of his kids went on to become musicians. One's a drummer, I think, but I forgot his name. His other son, Felix, has become a bassist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.117.145.135 (talk) 00:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Have a look at Ingrid Pastorius' website: http://www.jacop.net/homepage.html Sadly I note that Ingrid died in 2011: http://jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=2452 John a s (talk) 23:08, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

"Bass of Doom" found
http://www.bassplayer.com/article/jacos-1962-fender/mar-08/34267 --Monkeymaker (talk) 22:37, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I put a note about this in the "Basses" section, and referenced the link to the article. Chuckiesdad/Talk/Contribs 05:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Playing Style?
"He used finger-style playing exclusively, and was not fond of the slap bass style of many funk and R&B bassists of the time. His playing has been described by those who know him to be fast and showy, but always in time with the "groove.""

And what exactly constitutes "finger-style" playing? Remember he used his thumb quite a bit on Portrait of Tracy, look up a Youtube video. And are the quotes for him saying he did not like funk & R&B bassist's style? Where is that source? Where is the source for "those" who know him to be fast and showy? This section was written in about ten minutes with no background work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.136.195.217 (talk) 06:00, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Please, sign your posts. If you wish to see more information on the page, perhaps you might help by researching and adding referenced text to the article. Fingerstyle playing refers to players who do not use a plectrum or pick, but instead choose to use their fingers, (all five per hand) on the strings.--leahtwosaints (talk) 03:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Expanding on this a little fingerstyle is also contrasted with the "slap" or "slap and pop" style of bass playing whose invention is usually attributed to Larry Graham. Slap bass is played with the fingers but the difference is that the strings a struck(when slapped) or pulled away from the fingerboard (when popped) in a fashion that allows the string to hit the fingerboard. This results in a distinctive percussive sound. Graham has said he used slap style because the group he was in at the time didn't have a drummer and he was looking to create percussion type of sound. Whether you use your thumb or not isn't the criteria, in fact you can achieve a slap-like sound by using your index or middle finger held rigidly and slammed against the string. It's the string hitting the fingerboard and achieving the percussive sound that defines the style. It's incorrect to say that Pastorius didn't like funk because he didn't play slap bass. He is considered by many, myself included, to be a masterful funk bassist. Not all funk basslines are slapped. Rocco Prestia, previously mentioned, is another widely regarded funk bassist who does not slap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gomez27 (talk • contribs) 17:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you
I would like to thank the editors who have recently come to add their talents to this article. Jaco has, without a doubt, influenced many of the best bass guitarists, if not all of them, IMO, and certainly influenced a great deal of the music we have taken for granted. I only recently discovered the article languishing here. If anyone is interested in forming some kind of task force to improve this article, please, speak up! --leahtwosaints (talk) 05:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Discography
I've condensed this section a bit, as it didn't really seem to know what it wanted to be... it wasn't a 'complete' discography, missing but included some bootlegs and fairly obscure stuff that's really for completists only. Some of the albums I've left in I'm still unsure of... the Herbie Hancock albums, for example, have only one track each that feature Jaco.

I've moved the original discography section to a new article Jaco Pastorius discography, where it can be added to to make a complete list. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 09:49, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, WOW, that was YOU Catfish? I love what's been done with Jaco's discography! I hope you're reading this.. it's really well done. :) --Leahtwosaints (talk) 02:03, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I hope it's alright I completely redid the discography section.(Gen77c (talk) 04:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)).

Opinions...
"Jaco was inducted into the Down Beat Jazz Hall of Fame in 1988, one of only four bassists to be so honored. He is regarded as one of the most influential bass players of all time." The first part is a fact, he was inducted. It needs a citation ... The second part is an opinion and should not be included into the article, my recent changes have been removed under "irrelevance" even though they contributed and I had been warned under "vandalism" twice for editing this sentence. So instead I would like to simply bring up this issue for someone else to fix, Wikipedia should be a factual source of information rather than opinions. This entire article is full of simply opinions. 76.104.37.77 (talk) 02:11, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Firstly, yes, it is a fact - and unless someone is disputing this fact there really isn't any need to bog down the article with additional citations. But if you really think it needs a citation, add a tag and see what happens.  Secondly, it is a good idea to read the editing history of an article before deleting parts.  If you do so you will realise that the wording of that particular sentence has been picked over a fair amount until concensus has been reached.  Even though I, personally, feel that Jaco's influence is enormously overrated I can't really dispute the statement that a fair number of people do indeed regard him as such.  I restored this sentence, even though I don't personally agree with it, because there seemed to be no justification for removing it - as far as I can tell it was only removed as a consequence of your  previous edits being reverted.  Now, I unfortunately referred to your original edit as silly, which may have caused offence, but consider this - does adding the names of every other bass player considered to be influential add to the article - along that path lies madness - the article would end up containing a list of all other bass players who anyone also considered influential.  Perhaps silly was an unfortunate description.  Similarly, listing all the other bass players who have been inducted into some hall of fame or other is irrelevant in this particular article - there have been many bass players inducted into the rock and roll hall of fame as part of a band in the same way as Cliff Burton - this is not unusual or relevant to the Down Beat Jazz Hall of Fame.
 * This has nothing at all to do with the relative importance of the two bass players in question - it is simply a general principle. Your edits regarding Cliff Burton were reverted simply because this article is not the correct place for them.  The Cliff Burton article would be a good place to start, or perhaps the bass guitar article, or you might want to try starting a list of influential bass players article.  Dinobass (talk) 05:27, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that there's a misunderstanding here and you're taking it personally. Whether you 'like' Jaco's work or think it's of aesthetic worth is irrelevant. The question is whether he was one of the 'most influential' bassists, and if so, whether a mention of Cliff Burton belongs in this article.


 * Of course Jaco was influential. He made an enormous impact, one that's perhaps difficult to imagine now but really can't be overstated. He really was a big deal and made everyone sit up and reassess the role of bass in popular music. In many cases, this was not a good thing! He's indirectly responsible for some truly horrible music through the efforts of Jaco clones the world over.


 * There's a vast industry supplying aspiring bass players with instructional resources, signature instruments, books and DVDs, that supposedly will help them emulate Jaco's style and technique... and they consistently outsell all other (bass) artist-oriented material. It's difficult to get away from him if you read magazines or discussion forums that are devoted to bass guitar. He's hot property.


 * Does he deserve the adulation that is poured upon him? Maybe, maybe not. I could personally go a long time without ever hearing his music, and I don't subscribe to the view that he is 'essential listening' for bassists. But my personal likes or dislikes are irrelevant. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and personal opinions, as you say, have no place on it. But the question of Jaco's influence is not a personal opinion.


 * Does Cliff Burton have a place in this article? The article is about Jaco Pastorius and, unless I'm mistaken, Cliff did not play any role whatsoever in Jaco's life. Any inclusion in this article would be an irrelevant distraction within the topic. It's not an article about influential bass players. Does the statement that Cliff was an influential bass player have any place on wikipedia? Yes... in the appropriate place.


 * As to the point about citations... yes, all statements must be backed up with citation in the main body of the article (not in the lead). If a citation is missing, place a fact tag after that statement. Don't go overboard though!


 * The vandalism warnings are simple templates and are standard procedure when an editor's posting appears to be unconstructive or disruptive. Don't worry about them too much, but if I were you I'd create an account to avoid getting a blanket ban from your IP address.Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 12:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Bass of Doom....
I've deleted the reference to the bass of doom in the caption to Jaco playing the bass with his shirt off. The fretless bass of doom is the instrument pictured further down from the same show. It's the bass that got smashed and repaired with maple veneers.

This is what it looks like today:

http://www.mubass.com/mulog/attach/1/1285483960.jpg

The fretted bass that was incorrectly captioned has also recently been found and still looks the same:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/dohdoh7814/rich-2_2.jpg

Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 00:47, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it would be great (if handled with some delicacy) to include a small section on the "Bass of Doom"; what it is, why & how it gained that name, and if possible, a way to display it in the article (hopefully as a free image). I am not qualified to write the text for it though, and it would need reliable references. If you agree to the idea, I'll look around Flickr for photos. I'm not bad at talking photographers there into giving up their copyrights in exchange for Creative Commons licenses that allow us use of the photos, but I really would need some help from someone (Catfish, and... who else?) to ascertain whether the photos I find contain the correct bass guitar. Some fretless guitars bewilder me with lines painted in to represent where frets would have been, etc. I used to love the way Jaco referred to the frets as "speedbumps"! (Too funny!) This is one instance where the average guitar group person can't do the article justice, and perhaps why his instruments have languished at Start for some time. Like Eric Clapton, who has a section that begins, "...his guitars are almost as storied as the man himself..", I believe Jaco's experience with his Upright bass being unable to handle the humidity, and his response-- to pry the frets off his electric bass, as the incredible beginning of his involvement in the evolution of the bass guitar, and the impact Jaco had on plenty of notable bassists is important. The liner notes written by Pat Metheny are possibly fairest to his influence, whether you like his experimentation with harmonics and feedback or not: it used to be the bass was viewed mainly as just something (with the drums) to "hold the bottom down" in songs, and Jaco's contribution in part, has been to show that melodic playing, as well as harmonics, use of harmonics, feedback, etc. --all very important. Not many other electric bass guitarists were as versatile and I don't recall too many bass solos before him with just a few very notable exceptions outside jazz, before his influence, not to mention songs written primarily just for bass guitar. If anybody sees this as a good idea, please leave a note here and copy it to my talk page.  Thanks.--Leahtwosaints (talk) 02:03, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I've been thinking about it a bit... there is already a section that discusses his basses that might benefit from being expanded, or at least illustrated with a photo:

Basses Pastorius was most identified by his use of two well-worn Fender Jazz Basses from the early 1960s: A 1960 fretted, and a 1962 fretless. The fretless, known by Jaco as the "Bass of Doom", was originally a fretted bass that had the frets removed. Jaco claimed to have removed the frets himself[30] but later said he had bought it with the frets already removed.[6] Jaco finished the fretboard with marine epoxy (Petit's Poly-poxy) to protect the wood from the roundwound Rotosound strings he was using.[6] Even though he played both the fretted and the fretless basses frequently, he preferred the fretless, because he felt frets were a hindrance, once calling them "speed bumps". However, he said in the instructional video that he never practiced with the fretless because the strings "chew the neck up." Both of his Fender basses were stolen shortly before he entered Bellevue hospital in 1986. In 1993, one of the basses resurfaced in a New York City music shop, with the distinctive letter P written between the two pickups. In 2008, the 1962 fretless "Bass of Doom" also turned up in good condition in New York.[31]

There are some issues with that section. I don't really like the reference to 'speed bumps'... sure, he said it in an interview, but he wasn't one to let factual accuracy get in the way of an entertaining story or soundbite... there's no logical reason that removing the frets would increase 'speed'. Expressiveness and tone, certainly.

I'm not sure the fretted bass that was stolen was Jaco's main fretted. Jaco, of course, had more than two basses during his career. There is a reward poster reproduced in the Milkowski book that describes them. While the stolen fretless was without doubt the 'bass of doom', the 'baby blue' jazz doesn't sound a whole lot like the beaten up 1960 sunburst jazz he favoured and which can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JIfrgGCBMY

Some mention ought to be made of the extensive repair work that Kevin Kaufman made to the 'bass of doom'.

It's important not to overstate the importance of the specific instruments he used or to over-interpret some of the stories that are out there. There's no evidence that Jaco removed the frets from his bass because the upright bass was frustrating him... in fact it's unlikely that he did remove the frets from the 'Bass of Doom' (he says in an interview that it was fretless when he bought it...) Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 13:27, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

There's a Flickr set of the Bass of Doom, if you're interested.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eugenevoorneman/sets/72157622516920997/

The main picture shows the Bass of Doom on the left, with the Fender Jaco Pastorius signature jazz on the right. They charge an extra thousand dollars or so to beat up the bass to make it look like Jaco's bass. One interesting feature is that, for some reason, Jaco has swapped its neck plate with the one from his 1960 fretted (serial number 57308). Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 13:40, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Biréli Lagrène
I've reverted an edit which reinstated the description of Biréli Lagrène as a 'gypsy guitarist'. There are very good reasons why we should avoid using this term, as innocuous as it might seem at first glance.

Firstly, to address the points raised in the edit summary: Lagrène's nationality is French rather than 'Gypsy' and his ethnicity is Manush Romani. While he is famous for his heavily Django influenced style and made his initial impact in that style as a child, by the time he met Jaco he had drifted away from that style and had firmly embraced fusion. The music he played with Jaco cannot in any way be described as 'gypsy jazz' (as Django/Hot Club style swing has sometimes come to be described).

While Lagrène has used the term 'Gypsy' in, for example, his 'Gypsy Project', it is not a term generally used to describe Manush Romani in France. It's an English word that was applied to the Romanichal Romani people (who are distinct from the Manush) when they arrived in Britain in the Middle Ages, under the misapprehension they were from Egypt. It's considered a pejorative word amongst many Romanichal, although it has been embraced by New Travellers, who receive legal benefits from being classed as an ethnicity through lifestyle.

Even if it could be successfully argued that 'gypsy' was an acceptable description of Lagrène's ethnicity, the question has to be asked whether it is appropriate to describe musicians by their ethnicity. I don't see Wayne Shorter described as an Afro-American or Joni Mitchell as Celt/Scandinavian. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 10:13, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I see your point now. In general, he's still a gypsy in layman's terms (I obviously do not possess the knowledge that you do in that area, and I believe the general public cannot distinguish between the different Roman nomadic tribes as well). I restored "gypsy" because Lagrène is unanimous with the gypsy guitar style, as you have well agreed with me. Still, your explanations are more than valid so we will keep the word out of the article. Thanks again, I reckon you're the first editor (out of those who challenge my contributions) that actually makes sense and evokes the desire to respond in a civil manner. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 22:36, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Not everyone shares your opinion! If you don't have it yet, get this... http://www.amazon.com/Bireli-Lagrene-Friends-Live-Vienne/dp/B0002TT0H8 Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 23:12, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Still not encyclopedic
I'm grateful for all the work that's been done on this article (as I see from the discussion). At this point, though, it's still pretty hyperbolic, and needs a good going-over for chronological consistency and encyclopedic tone. rowley (talk) 21:25, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Pastorius Family does NOT own/have the bass, as reported.
"Although Trujillo currently owns the instrument, the Metallica bassist agreed in writing to relinquish the instrument to the family at any time for the same purchase price. According to Bobbing, the family corporation’s liaison to the law firm of Kilpatrick Stockton, Trujillo additionally made several other warranties in the purchase agreement rider that completely established that he had the best interests of Jaco and of the Pastorius family in mind.

“I’m never going to single-handedly feel like I have the ultimate right to it,” says Trujillo. “I feel like myself and the family share its voice in a way. Ultimately, I think we all agree that we’d like to see this legendary bass in a museum.”

http://www.fender.com/news/index.php?display_article=533&EDID=UUX2WFS-UU1R-TZI0H-38A4-HYJC-v1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.136.168.185 (talk) 19:49, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

eBay in 1993? Not possible.
eBay wasn't around until 1995, at earliest. Even then, I doubt there were enough people on it to serve multiple death treats. This must have happened in a different year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.173.20 (talk) 20:21, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

That's true. There's no way that can be right. Also, it's not cited, so obviously someone has just made it up. I've had a bit of a look around, and the only bass I can find info on its whereabouts is the Bass of Doom. Anyone have any idea about this bass? -xCaMRocKx- (talk) 03:18, 28 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I've reverted the edit made by the anonymous IP editor. It was on ebay, but in 2001 . Catfish Jim   &#38; the soapdish  15:20, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Here is the text of the listing, with a photo of the bass. It is the 1960 fretted jazz.  Catfish Jim   &#38; the soapdish  15:23, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Jaco
Is there a reason why this article often calls him by his nickname (Jaco)??? I'm a huge fan of Jaco and he is my all time favourite electric bass guitarist, but I do not think it is very "encyclopedic" to call him by his nickname. IMHO, Pastorius or Jaco Pastorius would be more correct. –p joe f (talk • contribs) 08:34, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * It's common usage, but unencyclopedic. I've replaced some of the instances of "Jaco" with "Pastorius". Feel free to complete the job. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 09:45, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank You!!! –p joe f (talk • contribs) 13:18, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

✅ [Hope] it's all okay now. –p joe f (talk • contribs) 13:47, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

His Dad was a Drummer
His dad sang and was a drummer in the big band period. What bands did he sing and play for? Gingermint (talk) 01:32, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Epoxy
Epoxy that Jaco used to coat fretless fingerboard of his Bass Of Doom is Petite's Poly-Poxy. You can check this fact there: http://www.jacop.net/gear.html I edited the spelling several times, but it is still wrong in the artricle... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.238.132.69 (talk) 16:50, 25 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, you have found an unreliable website which has got the name wrong. This does not count as a primary source.  You will also find a larger number of websites and also published articles which have propogated a similar error and refer to the epoxy as petit's with one 't'.  However, the company which produced the epoxy, and still produces it is Pettit Paint http://www.pettitpaint.com/ - you can go to their website and find the exact product that Jaco used still in production.  If you search for petite epoxy you will not find such a company because it does not, and as far as I can tell, never has existed - google will helpfully and correctly redirect you to Pettit Paint in both cases.  Please do not change the spelling again. Dinobass (talk) 21:21, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Slight correction. The product Jaco used is now manufactured by a company called Polytek Dinobass (talk) 22:05, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

It seems that Jaco himself did the same mistake (http://www.jacop.net/advice.html). It's unbelievable. Excuse me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.238.132.81 (talk) 08:29, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It is not at all unbelievable. Jaco was an extremely talented musician.  However, comparing interviews with him at different times turn up irreconcilable differences.  In some interviews he removed the frets from his bass using a butter knife, in others it was already defretted.  He is pretty consistent about coating with epoxy, but there are some sources suggest that he did not do this himself.  The truth may be impossible to deduce at this juncture.  Consider this, you go into a shop and buy some goop. Some years later you are famous and people start asking you about it. Pettit = Petite is not at all unreasonable in that context.  However, in the 21st century we can check these things, which was far from possible when those documents were written, so we have no excuse. Dinobass (talk) 11:26, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Previous band
It says he played in a band called Las Olas Brass, but in an interview here, at about 0:06:32, he says something which sounds to me more like The Lasso's Brass.--Mycomp (talk) 06:11, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Holiday For Pans
Article says that Jaco didn't play the electric bass on the album. He actually played it, but there were no bass solos. I think this sentence should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.238.132.95 (talk) 11:31, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Live in Italy
There's no reference to the "Live in italy" Recordings (Jazzpoint, 1986). I Believe it shuld be included, since it says "discography", not "selected discography", as well as any other records he could have made. Plus, the "live in Italy" is a great record.
 * Agree it's a great record (released in '91 though recorded in '86) and not only are both JP and Lagrene in great form, Thomas Böröcz (otherwise pretty much unknown) proves himself a drummer of genius. Killer funky drumming and a great sense of creating space and rhythmic drive. 83.254.151.33 (talk) 05:43, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Influences
I added Rocco Prestia. While they can be considered contemporaries, Rocco had the jump on Jaco by a few years, with a style and approach to the instrument that are probably among the most unique. When you listen to Jaco, you hear far more Rocco than you do Bob Marley, Frank Sinatra or Tony Bennett. Thedukeofno 08:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of influences, i was surprised not to see such names as: Jack Bruce, John Entwhistle, and John Paul Jones on the list.

You really think those three influenced Jaco? [bass ghost] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.225.143.253 (talk) 20:55, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Cream were certainly an influence on him, and also Jimi Hendrix - much more than Noel Redding. ;) The inspiration from Hendrix in Pastorius's wider musical style and thinking is obvious. And in many ways Jaco's impact on the way bass guitar would be used within jazz (and outside of it) paralleled what Hendrix did to rock guitar, plus both men's sense of showmanship.83.254.151.33 (talk) 05:33, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Bassists in the Down Beat Hall of Fame
The text said that Jaco is one of only three bassist in the Down Beat Hall of Fame. I find at least one more that was not mentioned, Charlie Mingus. That makes four... I'll change the text. /Sven 83.233.152.90 11:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused. The third paragraph down states Jaco was one of six bassists inducted into the Down Beat Jazz Hall of Fame. However, under "Awards and tributes", it states only four bassists. So which is correct? 4 or 6? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.209.138.29 (talk) 20:25, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Six: Jimmy Blanton, Ray Brown, Charlie Hayden, Charles Mingus, Ron Carter and Jaco. The number in the awards section was probably inserted when there were only four.  Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  10:15, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Seven: And Milt Hinton.  Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  10:19, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Downbeat hall of fame
Someone changed the figure from 6 to 4 bassists... We have:  Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  15:19, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Jimmy Blanton
 * Ray Brown
 * Ron Carter
 * Charlie Hayden
 * Charles Mingus
 * Jaco Pastorius


 * And Milt Hinton makes seven.  Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  10:20, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Biréli Lagrène
Why isn't there any mention of the time Jaco met up with Biréli Lagrène around 1984? The recordings with those two were mind-blowing.
 * (Signing old, unsigned talk message for purpose of archiving) Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  11:02, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Removed misattributation
"Another technique that Jaco supposedly used was to coat his fingertips in chicken grease or coating the strings in Vaseline, but close friends and musicians that worked with Jaco dispute this."

That one's been bugging me for a while now while I've been waiting for somebody else to fix it. This is a popular story that is told of Motown bass legend James Jamerson (he would eat fried check before playing never washing his hands in between) and somewhere along the lines it got attributed to Jaco. The only definitive source that hints that this is remotely true comes from his 2nd wife who says "every now and then he wouldn't wash [his fingers]", but this hardly classifies it as a 'technique'. If there is any source that can verify this as a technique that Jaco used then please cite.

Jaco says, in the "Modern Electric Bass" video, that he took the frets out of his bass himself, then filled the gaps with wood putty.

I've heard both stories too.


 * (Signing old, unsigned talk message for purpose of archiving) Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  11:02, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

what happened??
Extremely poorly written and wrought with blatant inaccuracies and hearsay..terrible injustice to an incredible musician.

Part about being buried with his bass is untrue.
 * (Signing old, unsigned talk message for purpose of archiving) Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  11:02, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Improving quality of the article
I'm going to have a go at improving the article somewhat over the next couple of weeks, to bring it up to B-class level and aim towards bringing it to GA-class. It's not too far off B-class at present, but I'll present issues as I see them here for potential discussion (although I'll tend towards WP:Be bold, anything people find contentious, please raise them and we can discuss).

Issues so far:


 * "Influence" section was little more than a list of WP:TRIVIA. Virtually every bassist who strays beyond root-fifth harmonies is influenced by Jaco. I've removed this section for now... it could conceivably be reintroduced, but my feeling is that the criteria for inclusion should be significant coverage... for instance a more than trivial mention of that influence in an interview (i.e. more than name-dropping).
 * We are lacking a section that analyses his playing style. I will address this.
 * The "Biography Controversy" section is way over the top. My feeling is that it should be removed completely and the book used only as a source. The specific issues raised by Ingrid Pastorius do not impact its reliability in the way it has been used.

Comments welcomed.

 Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  11:06, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 6 one external links on Jaco Pastorius. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20090107045155/http://oaklandparkmainstreet.com/PressReleases/Jaco_Pastorius_Park.pdf to http://oaklandparkmainstreet.com/PressReleases/Jaco_Pastorius_Park.pdf
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20090305053221/http://www.jacopastorius.com:80/biography/life.asp to http://www.jacopastorius.com/biography/life.asp
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20090305053240/http://www.jacopastorius.com:80/features/guestartists/marcusmiller.asp to http://www.jacopastorius.com/features/guestartists/marcusmiller.asp
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20090506054822/http://www.jacopastorius.com:80/features/writings/daddy.asp to http://www.jacopastorius.com/features/writings/daddy.asp
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20090615171022/http://www.innerviews.org:80/inner/zawinul.html to http://www.innerviews.org/inner/zawinul.html
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20090923185540/http://www.jacopastorius.com:80/features/interviews/portrait.asp to http://www.jacopastorius.com/features/interviews/portrait.asp

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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071105051620/http://www.fender.com/products//search.php?partno=0119600805 to http://www.fender.com/products/

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Self referential link
The link to Modern Electric Bass in the 'Post-Weather Report' section redirects to Jaco Pastorius. Is it ok to remove the link?

Hfxd (talk) 12:53, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Done  Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  14:21, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Leaden article
Wow, this article about one of the most groundbreaking bass players of modern times has been picked clean by a bunch of hyperdeletionists and people who go to Allmusic and no further. Picked clean of just about everything that could give the reader a living idea of Jaco's development as a musician and composer, and the way he interacted with (and so impressed) his bands and the music scene of his day, and instead turned into a dry brush of notes about what bands hired him, who his sidemen were, his drug addiction and his untimely death. I read this article three or four years ago, and after a few looks into the editing history it's clear that in the last 1-2 years the page has been progressively pared down and greyed out into a featureless mess that gives no idea of the musician, beyond the fact that he was very talked about for a couple of years. Depressing. 83.254.143.236 (talk) 23:41, 12 May 2018 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 20:47, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Not everyone likes encyclopedias. For a more subjective, biased approach which celebrate the life of Jaco Pastorius, you would probably enjoy the paperback Jaco by Bill Milkowski and the DVD documentary Jaco (2015) directed by Paul Marchand.

Pastorius descendance
http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/4758_001.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:45:490E:28E:84D2:7DD5:AA4C:114F (talk) 08:47, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * He is a descendant of a German immigrant to America, Francis (Franz) Daniel Pastorius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Daniel_Pastorius


 * That's quite possible. But that article doesn't make the claim, nor have any sources to support such a claim. Perhaps you do? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:54, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Photo date
The main photo in the info box (top right corner) is also featured in Jaco's discography page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaco_Pastorius_discography). The caption there says that it is from 1987, however, while the caption here states 1986. Which one is correct? FiggazWithAttitude (talk) 13:55, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The source image at Wikimedia Commons says this: "This photo wasn't taken in Napoli but in Bologna in 1986. Jaco was Playing with Biréli Lagrène & Thomas Borocz. My source is Ingrid: his wife." So I think we must assume it was 1986. I have corrected the other article. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:13, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank YOU, sir! FiggazWithAttitude (talk) 18:38, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * No worries. I'm guessing you're not related. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:44, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

To add to article
To add to article: his father's heritage.

Basic information from the Internet:


 * He was born on the first of December 1951 in Norristown, Pennsylvania, to a Finnish mother and a German-Irish father who could trace his ancestry back to one Francis Daniel Pastorius, who, in the year 1688, was among the first in America to call for the abolition of slavery. The name Pastorius comes from the Latin for “shepherd.”

76.189.141.37 (talk) 06:44, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

ALSO:

shouldn't there be a "personal life" section? .. . his marriage   ...  who was tracy  etc.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.60.219.125 (talk) 16:53, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

fender... better late than never
fender’s tribute to jaco came out about twenty years after his death. this (link) is tokai’s catalogue from 1981, i.e. while jaco was still alive. the fretless bass is clearly modelled on jaco’s instrument, down to the missing pickguard, the precision-style knobs & the lacquered board. OR? can somebody figure a way to put this into the article?

http://brochures.yokochou.com/guitar-and-amp/tokai/1981/en_04.html

duncanrmi (talk) 07:53, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Flynn reference?
In the Weather Report section, it mentions "During his time with Weather Report, Pastorius began abusing alcohol and illegal drugs." And then goes on to reference "Flynn," which appears in the notes, but not in the references section. To what text/article/documentary, etc. does the "Flynn" citation refer? Vindafarna (talk) 19:34, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Mike Flynn... used to post on Talk Bass ten years ago or so. I vaguely remember him being a music journalist. Will look into it.  Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  20:49, 10 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Looks like this is the diff that introduced it . I would just delete the flynn ref.  Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  20:54, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay, so I've attempted to do so, but when I remove the Flynn reference and look at the preview it seems to completely reorder the rest of the notes. What's going on there? Sorry, I'm a bit new to this... Vindafarna (talk) 21:13, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Inaccurate and unacceptably negative
The article starts claiming that Jaco was "one of the best electric bass players in the world"... is there a single bass player in this world that would dispute the fact that he was THE greatest electric bass player in the world, period, full stop ? Two sources are then cited, one that claims that Jaco was the all-time best, the other a Rolling Stone magazine readers poll, that puts Jaco 7th, behind John Paul Jones, Paul Mc Cartney and John Entwistle, among complete nobodies like two bassists from the band "Rush"! Yet this article then says "Jaco Pastorius isn't a household name, but ask any serious bass player and they'll cite him as a legend virtually without peer. " So both articles agree that informed and musical people know that Jaco was either "the best" or "without peer", which are synonyms. Ignorant and confused "Rush" or "Beatles" fans don't matter.

The article then says that Jaco died "as a result of injuries sustained in a fight ", while it is clear he was killed by Luc Havan. The latter was charged with "second degree murder", and convicted for "manslaughter", which still is killing. Why these outrageous euphemism of "injuries sustained in a fight". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB08:175:2300:219B:AAB2:6678:A30A (talk) 18:52, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia's job isn't to find a "single bass player in this world that would dispute the fact that he was THE greatest electric bass player in the world, period, full stop". It's job is to reflect what the sources say. Those polls are currently the only sources in the lead section. But there is quite a lot of material in the "Awards and honors" section. I tend to agree with you about he "injuries sustained in a fight", although that is a perfectly true statement and there is quite a lot of detail to explain. The lead section is meant to be only a summary of the entire article. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:06, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Circumstances of death
http://www.thestacksreader.com/who-killed-jaco-pastorius/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:c0:df35:6e00:5cbe:812a:5c4c:8b93 (talk • contribs) 17:29, 10 August 2021 (UTC)