Talk:Jacobo Timerman

Re: Spelling
it's Timerman, not Timmerman. please change the title.


 * It's been fixed. --(Mingus ah um 01:47, 16 April 2006 (UTC))

RE: Timerman was no hero

I had to straighten up the record. Timerman helped destroy democracy in Argentina by his relentless campaing agaisnt President Arturo Illia, and by praising the future dictator, Ongania. He did an immense harm to his country, and if anyoe deserve to be tortured, it was him.

I see that you insist on whitewashing him.

Those of us who can rememember how much we lost on the 28th of june of 1966 will not forget how you lie with history.

Ben Nathan
This is a patronymic that is never to be used outside a religious context.

Many Israelis (and some non-Israeli Jews) have adopted a surname that is actually a patronymic (such as Ben-Eliezer), then the surname is passed on to children and grandchildren just like any other surname. (The usage of the patronymic as a person's surname in the Arabic-speaking world is different, and more consistent with the usual definition of a patronymic.)

Timerman used the patronymic as part of his full name in the intro to this book, but it was just for dramatic effect. It was never part of his "civil" name, neither in Argentina nor in Israel (where both the patronymic and the matronymic are used for religious purposes, but are not used as part of a person's name on the state-issued formal ID).

Bias
Well, it's clear that someone who was very displeased with Timmerman has edited this article...fix please, anyone with more information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.23.227.112 (talk) 00:29, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Expansion of Timerman article
Appears to be excellent additions to Timerman article and use of RS. Valuable information.Parkwells (talk) 13:13, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

How many newspapers and when?
In one place the article says he founded one paper (or magazine?) in 1964. Soon after, it says he founded two newspapers in the 1970s. Are these really different, or does one include the paper of 1964? As the second two are not identified by name, it is difficult to tell. Have made other editing changes to try to put information in the right place chronologically, such as a paragraph about the 1966 coup. Still working on it.Parkwells (talk) 12:30, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Explain Graiver
Believe that the Graiver scandal needs more explanation within the article to show how Timerman's connection to the man was used against him. In one place it suggests G's connection to the Monteneros was the problem, but there are later references to a big scandal and faked death, which do not have enough detail for a reader to understand without prior knowledge. Parkwells (talk) 12:28, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Add to Lead
Added to Lead to provide more detail about persecution, and also about Timerman's later life - he was in Israel for 20 years and published at least two books there, continuing his public role of critic of abuses.Parkwells (talk) 12:32, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I was just reading over the new lead. While I agree with you that his Israeli period should be included in the lead, I would suggest a more summary approach: What did he do while in Israel that should be remembered? Trivial details, like his son living is Israel, could be moved lower. My only other comment is not to give undo importance to the Israeli period because it is his Argentinian period about which he'll be most remembered. My big request: Please put back into the lead his opposition to the dirty war and its wikilink. This what I believe many readers will want to explore. Crtew (talk) 12:46, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Did not delete the link or reference to the "Dirty War"; have emphasized it even more in the sentence. Corrected my own error in thinking he stayed in Israel; he left in 1982 because of his deep disappointment in the government, and settled again in Argentina in 1984, where he stayed for the rest of his life.Parkwells (talk) 13:47, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Citizenship and Nationality
Jacobo Timerman is a great example of when both citizenship and nationality are needed in the infobox. For most people, nationality is the better choice. But he was from the Ukraine by birth but from Argentina (in terms of nationality) and later became an Israeli citizen. It's not appropriate to have both countries in both slots as it adds confusion.

From template: "Nationality. May be used instead of citizenship (below) or vice versa in cases where any confusion could result. Should only be used with citizenship when they somehow differ. Should only be used if nationality cannot be inferred from the birthplace."

From template: "Country of legal citizenship, if different from nationality. Rarely needed. See usage notes for nationality above. Should only be used if citizenship cannot be inferred from the birthplace."

I would place Argentina in nationality and Israel in citizenship. Crtew (talk) 12:57, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Given that he left Israel because of his deep disappointment in the government, would you place this citizenship over his Argentine one? His Argentine citizenship was likely restored when he returned under the new regime. His action seems to indicate where his heart was.Parkwells (talk) 13:44, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Fascinating question. It does seem that Timerman regained his Argentine citizenship in 1984. However, he may have also kept his Israeli citizenship: "I am an Israeli citizen, I behave like an Israeli citizen, and I am always going to be an Israeli citizen", he said (at USC, in Los Angeles) in 1983. In January 1984, he said "I am an Israeli citizen. If the Argentine government voluntarily decides to give me my Argentine citizenship back, I will accept it only as long as I can keep my Israeli nationality." These statements may bespeak a felt attachment to Israeli that transcends the legal relation of citizenship. The protective actions of the Israeli government during Timerman's imprisonment also suggest a perceived responsibility which took effect prior to formal citizenship. This question has produced some interesting results, which I think will yield some new twists & turns to the Timerman story. Shalom, groupuscule (talk) 14:17, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

My point above, is that for the infobox, we normally use nationality as the default. Citizenship is only used when a person has a different citizenship from nationality. It's more complicated because he was born in the Ukraine. But infoxes are not good places for the types of details and issues you raise! Those issues should come out in the text and give context to the stark infobox facts. By the way, it should be easy enough to reference his religion in the infobox (which is a policy requirement)! Crtew (talk) 14:37, 4 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Given the complexity of the circumstances, maybe both Israeli and Argentine citizenship should be shown, in that order - kind of a pointer for the curious to follow up in the article.Parkwells (talk) 15:10, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Citation; wife's name
According to The Independent obituary (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/obituary-jacobo-timerman-1125585.html), he married Risha Midlin (different last-name spelling from that in the article) in 1950, which disagrees with the article's 1951 (which also has a "citation needed" tag on it). This should probably be cleared up... BlueMoonset (talk) 23:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

DYK
Great spike in page views with the DYK - congrats on the nearly 5,000 hits! and thanks for including me on the nomination, interesting topic to work on. Have been doing much more in South America recently, making my way between articles in English and in Spanish and Portuguese, with the help of Google Translate and some historical knowledge of the events for context, so let me know when you're looking for collaborators.Parkwells (talk) 04:13, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

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