Talk:Jacques, Hereditary Prince of Monaco

Biographies of living persons policy
"Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion."

"The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores material."

What is it that is unclear about WP:BLP? Surtsicna (talk) 19:38, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Surtsicna is referring here to his/her recent removal of 14 names from the ancestor chart that originally appeared in this article. The appeal to WP:BLP standards is valid, but genealogy here almost never has in-line citations. That's because the standard in-line citation method used in text doesn't work very well for the genealogical charts used in Wikipedia. I've looked through sourcing the other articles the above editor has worked on (here, here, here, and here, for instance) and it doesn't seem any of them have figured out how to do it effectively. If the editor can point to an article that does this well I'd be happy to try and replicate the formatting. I'm sure the genealogical information itself is relatively easy to find, though I'm not sure about source quality. Flyte35 (talk) 20:38, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Of course, other crap exists, but we should strive to improve individual articles. It pains me to see that articles about Sophie and Catherine still feature the ahnentafels, but that is the fad nowadays. Their ancestry is as relevant to their status as Queen Latifah's is to her status, but I don't see Queen Latifah's great-great-grandparents mentioned anywhere. Why is the name of Sophie's mother's father's father's mother more relevant than the name of Latifah's mother's father's father's mother? Both of those long-dead women are absolutely non-notable and had no impact on their descendant's notability. The notion that we need to present a prince's wife with a pedigree or show a lack thereof is terrifying. But, those ahnentafels do appear to be sourced, and very reliably too. The Castilian queen's ancestry can be verified through Wikipedia articles about her ancestors - assuming, very optimistically, that all of those articles are properly sourced. We cannot verify Charlene's ancestry that way. But even if we somehow could, why do we need that information? Surtsicna (talk) 00:40, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm not seeing sourcing on those articles you edited, either. "Souring" exists, yes, as souring exists for the ancestors in this article. I'm asking about the proper formatting for genealogical charts, so I can try and reproduce the formatting and provide that sourcing appropriately to improve the article. Flyte35 (talk) 02:53, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The sources are given in the text preceding the chart. I suppose it does not matter where you place the reference; you could put it next to name #1 (the subject's name). But I would still question the relevance of the names of Charlene's great-grandparents. Surtsicna (talk) 12:05, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Moved Page to Crown Prince
I have moved this page to Jacques, Crown Prince of Monaco as the Palace refers to him as Crown Prince in English. (He is refered to as Hereditary Prince in French, because that is how Crown Prince Translates). Thank You Card from Monaco Palace with Title in French and English: 2nd Birthday, 1st Birthday Arg Matey (talk) 23:19, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Here is a birth announcement for the Palace Calling him Crown Prince as well. Arg Matey (talk) 23:23, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 1 March 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: NO CONSENSUS. Good discussion, but no consensus to move. В²C ☎ 01:01, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Jacques, Hereditary Prince of Monaco → Jacques, Crown Prince of Monaco – The Palace refers to Jacques as Crown Prince (in English. Prince Héréditaire in French), Multiple times, even as recently as December 2016. . I have only see one reference on their site of using Hereditary Prince in English. and that was from May 2015

Arg Matey (talk) 12:41, 1 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose. "Crown Prince" is not English for Prince Héréditaire. "Hereditary Prince" is the English term, used for heirs apparent to principalities (such as Monaco). A crown prince is the heir apparent to a kingdom, which Monaco is not. The official website never refers to Jacques as prince héritier (which translates to crown prince, used for example here to refer to the Crown Prince of Norway). In French, the official language of the state, it always calls Jacques prince héréditaire (which translates to "hereditary prince"). The English version of the official website has referred to Jacques correctly as Hereditary Prince of Monaco at least once, and that should be enough in my opinion. Surtsicna (talk) 13:46, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose. In order to make this sort of change we've got to have an authoritative source. The palace appears to be inconsistent about the term and the language is so awkward--"It is with immense joy that TT.SS.HH the Prince and Princess of Monaco have the great pleasure to announce the birth of Their children named..."--that it suggests an auto-translation. Flyte35 (talk) 15:35, 1 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Support There are actually two acceptable English translations for the French Prince Héréditaire, Crown Prince and Hereditary Prince. French doesn't have a separate term "Crown Prince." When translating you use which ever is correct in the situation. Who would be the authority on which is the correct English term for Jacques? The Palace seems like the highest authority on the topic. It makes sense we should use what ever term they use. As I have referenced above, The Palace calls Jacques, "Crown Prince" in English. The above references are their official website and Thank you card the Palace sent out to well-wishers who wrote to wish the Twins a Happy Birthday. You will notice the thank you card are bi-lingual (Crown Prince - English, Prince Héréditaire - French ) There is a post on the Palace's official Facebook page which is bi-lingual. They use Crown Prince - English, Prince Héréditaire - French And You say since they used Hereditary Prince "correctly" once out of the many many times they used Crown Prince to refer to Jacques, we should use that. But I think the "correct term" is what ever they have decided to use. (Which would be what they have used constantly over time, across platforms, not in one instance. It's perfectly reasonable that given they use Prince Héréditaire in French, they may accidentally use Hereditary Prince in English from time to time.) Arg Matey (talk) 14:59, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: I just wanted to point out that this vote probably shouldn't be counted as the nominator is again supporting his nomination through a separate vote while it's not a costume for the nominator to vote again. I maybe wrong but that's what I've learned through participating in numerous move discussions. So with combining his two votes, we have two users supporting him vs three who oppose him. Keivan.f  Talk 08:48, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Arg Matey provided the "hereditary prince" reference at the beginning of this discussion. As I said before, the correct title may well be crown prince, but if you think this is an essential change to make to the article, you've just got to provide an official source stating unequivocally that the correct title for the subject is crown prince, not just link to some blog post or awkwardly translated press releases.
 * I agree, Keivan.f , I didn't mean for this to be counted twice. I just thought I would write support because my first post did not have it & I want to be clearly counted as support. Counting me once, it is now 3 support & 3 opposed. But the decision is not based on the count of opposed vs. support, but rather the weight of the arguments on either side.
 * Support per Arg Matey. Although I dislike the translation of Prince Héréditaire as "Crown Prince" and can't help regarding it as ahistorical and confusing usage for the heir to a principality, I defer to the Monegasque court's repeated use of "Crown Prince" when referring officially to this young Grimaldi in English, and reluctantly recognize it's authority to do so. FactStraight (talk) 00:24, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I am quite surprised, as you have always defended factual accuracy. The official website has used the accurate title on at least one occasion, and Flyte35 has shown that the translation is done by someone with a very poor command of English, if not by a robot. The French version makes a clear distinction between prince héréditaire (Jacques) and prince héritier (eg. Haakon). Surtsicna (talk) 10:13, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Surtsicna Flyte35 While certainly an occasional post may be auto translated into English. The fact that 90 something% of the time they use Crown Prince can not be dismissed as Auto translation gone wrong. Especially when we have more official documents, which would get a high level of scrutiny that say Crown Prince. Here is an official video of Prince Albert announcing the birth of the twins. he refers to Jacques as "Crown Prince." Prince Albert certainly had a good grasp of English, and as a former Hereditary Prince himself knows Monaco & the royal families traditions and customs. He most certainly would not use "Crown Prince" on accident. It is clear the Palace has made a very deliberate choice to call Jacques, Crown Prince. He maybe the 1st Crown Prince in Monaco's history and you may not agree with that decision, but that is what the Palace has decided. I don't think any of us have the authority to say we know better than the Palace, and that we should disregard their wishes. I think the Page should immediately (after the required 7 days) be moved and all references to hereditary prince on this page and every Wikipedia page should be changed Crown Prince. If you would like to add a bit about the controversial change from Hereditary Prince to Crown Prince in the article I think we could all agree that would be good and informative, since obviously they are breaking from tradition. Arg Matey (talk) 14:49, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * In order to make a change we'd need to see an official source stating that the correct title is "crown prince," not hereditary prince. It's not enough to just point out that the term crown prince occurs more often in the auto-translated English version of the website. You may well be correct that "crown prince" is the appropriate term, but in order to make such a change you need to provide a source stating unequivocally that is the case. Flyte35 (talk) 16:25, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Did I not just show an official source that unequivocally shows the Palace is calling him Crown Prince....... Or was that video of Prince Alberts saying, in english, Jacques is a Crown Prince also a result of autocorrect? Which doesn't even make sense because when Prince Albert read the teleprompter, I'm sure he would realize the mistake. And 2nd it's not more often.... It's like 90% of the time and a lot of it is not text that has been auto-translated. As I have shown above, we have an Official Video of Prince Albert calling him Crown Prince, and Thank you notes from the Palace saying Crown Prince....... And the only official source that supports Hereditary Prince are some "Auto-translated English Version of the Website" (& of course historical use) But if you would like a few more sources here is: Here is the Official Birth Announcement that was hung up in the Palace court which Prince Albert signed (Surely this is an official enough source for Flyte35 ) Princess Charlene's Instagram (which is written solely in English....so I assume no Auto-translation there.) The English version of Princess Charlene's foundation website Arg Matey (talk) 19:35, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Here are some official government sources that Say Crown Prince: Press release from Monaco Government Monaco consulate in USA Arg Matey (talk) 23:13, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Could any of the opposed people share some offical documents that use Hereditary Prince in English? I don't think I can decide either way untill I compare how they use Hereditary Prince and Crown Prince in offical documents. And so far we have only seen examples of The Palace using Crown Prince. 107.77.194.170 (talk) 00:31, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Arg Matey wrote above that "Albert certainly had a good grasp of English, and as a former Hereditary Prince himself knows Monaco & the royal families traditions and customs. He most certainly would not use 'Crown Prince' on accident. It is clear the Palace has made a very deliberate choice to call Jacques, Crown Prince. He maybe the 1st Crown Prince in Monaco's history...." If, indeed, the title used to be "hereditary prince" and Prince Albert decided to change the title to "crown prince" that would be interesting, and someone probably would write an article about that. That would be an important article to read in order to figure out what's going on. Right now this looks a bit like original research. Flyte35 (talk) 07:03, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Flyte35 How is the Official Birth Announcement that was hung outside the palace not official enough for you? And how is that original research? Plus Albert saying it, the Goverment, the Consulete. If you can't provide any official examples of the Palace using Hereditary Prince, other than the one website mention, which may also be a result of Auto-translation, I will have to vote Support. 107.77.194.170 (talk) 13:54, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

All the sources I see here are either blog posts or primary sources, press releases from the palace that use sort of strange English. That's great but if, indeed, the subject is "the 1st Crown Prince in Monaco's history...." that's an interesting change that should be noted, and we have to have evidence the change is real.
 * I am very confused Flyte35, have you even looked at my sources? Because they are very official, numerous, and show a consistent use of the term by a variety of official sources. Yes I did share the 1 source that Surtsicna  had shared earlier with me that used Hereditary Prince. It was a mention on the Palace's website that is bi-lingual, which according to you means the english is likely auto-translated. And let me tell you in all my research to try to find an official enough source for you, I haven't come across any other official used of Hereditary Prince. This isn't a question of they use these two titles and which one should we go with. The Palace really only use one title to refer to Jacques, and that is Crown Prince.......... If you would really like to continue to debate that, find some official sources from the Palace that used Hereditary Prince. I have done my part to show official sources that aren't auto-translated that unequivocally show Prince Jacques' title is Crown Prince. Arg Matey (talk) 14:58, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't know what correct title for this subject is, but it's not appropriate to change the article like this without very good evidence the change is warranted. I don't think simply pointing out that the title crown prince is often used is good enough.Flyte35 (talk) 16:24, 3 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose Per Surtsicna and Flyte35. The accurate translation for Prince Héréditaire is Hereditary Prince. The previous heirs to the Monegasque throne, including his father and aunt, were also known as Hereditary Prince/ss. I don't know why we should turn this one into an exceptional case. Keivan.f  Talk 18:38, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The reason for this exception, Keivan.f , is the Palace refers to Jacques as Crown Prince when they use English. If this was merely a question on what is the best French to English translation of Prince Héréditaire, of course we would all agree on Hereditary Prince. Prince Albert (native english speaker), the Palace & Monaco government (function bi-lingually) are all fluent in English, aware of what Jacques french title is, and Monaco's historical use of Hereditary Prince.  Although Flyte35 and Surtsicna above have suggested their use of Crown Prince is due to their incompetence with the English language (and lack of awareness of Monaco's historical use of Hereditary Prince). We can only see Prince Albert, The Palaces, and Governments consistent and almost exclusive use of Crown Prince as a deliberate decision. And I don't know how we can oppose the Palace's decision and say they are categorically wrong to make that decision to use Crown Prince instead of Hereditary Prince. Arg Matey (talk) 19:58, 7 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Support per Arg Matey, Jacques title is what ever the Palace has decided his title is. Arg Matry has shown that the Palace calls him Crown Prince (as well as Monaco's goverment). The only argument from the opposed is that that is not historicaly correct. They have shown no evidence that the palace calls him Hereditary Prince. 107.77.194.218 (talk) 20:57, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * As I've already explained, there is no sourcing provided that says the official style is crown prince. There are bunch of blog posts or primary sources here using the term, sure. And that term might be the right one, yes. But that's not strong enough to warrant a change to the article. If Monaco historically used hereditary prince and then changed the title used for the heir that is probably worth noting, yes, but we'd need specific evidence for the change in title. If that's true I wouldn't think it would be all that difficult to find. Flyte35 (talk) 16:29, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I really don't know what more you could want to prove what Jacques official style is, than the Official Document hung in the palace courtyard that announced to the world (in ENGLISH) what his name and official title is?! or Prince Albert in a video making the official announcement of his children birth calling him Crown Prince. (Both are very specific evidence, of the Palace announcing to the world what his title is.) You seem to want some royal expert secondary source to say that the palace is correct in calling him Crown Prince. But no secondary source could really possibility have that authority. Jacques title come from the Monarchy, which would be both the Palace & Government. They have announced it is Crown Prince. I didn't find any articles fighting over the Crown Prince/Hereditary Prince question (probably because when a journalist realized the palace called him Crown Prince, they just accepted it). But here are a bunch of new articles that use Crown Prince (They have accepted Jacques title without dispute): Monaco Reporter, People, [Today], Telegraph UK, CNN, Independent ie Arg Matey (talk) 19:54, 8 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose: Hereditary Prince is a specific title given to the heir apparent in Monaco, yes he is also a crown prince but that isn't his title. Think of it this way: all Hereditary Princes are crown princes but not all crown princes are Hereditary Princes. If you wanted to move the title to Jacques (crown prince) then that would make sense, though obviously this would be a far inferior title to the one we currently have. Prince Charles is also a crown prince but we currently use the title Charles, Prince of Wales because Prince of Wales is a specific title given to the heir apparent in the United Kingdom. English is not an official language of Monaco, the fact that occasionally the term 'Hereditary Prince' is translated as 'Crown Prince' on official websites is because some poor staffer in a grubby basement is charged with using Google translate to change the French posts into English and then goes through to check the grammar is correct that's all. If official communications start to come out that from now on Hereditary Prince is out and Crown Prince is in then that would be different but as has been noted by others the official royal websites themselves are highly inconsistent on this matter. Ebonelm (talk) 17:49, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Discussion
I call everyone's attention to wp:closing instructions: The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue.

It seems to me that there are several arguments above that might be discarded. In particular, those that rely on his official name, and those that rely on a translation. Both of these arguments occur several times above.

I have to admit that the guidelines on translations in article titles are unclear, see WT:AT, and be warned that it's a long and inconclusive recent discussion that wanders onto many matters including translation in titles and in general. In summary, I don't think this argument is consistent with current policy, but others do.

On the matter of official names I think it's clearer. Someone said above I don't know how we can oppose the Palace's decision and say they are categorically wrong to make that decision to use Crown Prince instead of Hereditary Prince. There are several other comments along the same line. They are completely irrelevant IMO. The Palace does not control what English speakers choose to call him, and our policy is to prefer the decision of the populace over the Palace. Andrewa (talk) 23:03, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
 * re: "The palace has no control over what english speaker choose to call him." People can certainly "call" him what ever they want. Royals get refered to by alot of thing. But certainly the Palace does control what his Title is. Titles come for the Monarchy, not the people. A title is a fact, not a general consensus. The Monaco monarchy is bilingual English & French. There is no reason to argue over a how to translate French, because the monarchy has provided it in English. We only need to look at what they have said his title is. 107.77.194.224 (talk) 23:18, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree his Title is determined by the Palace. But the title of the Wikipedia article is determined by Wikipedia. See wp:correct. Andrewa (talk) 03:19, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree with Andrewa as to policy ... WP:Official names seems to be relevant here. Certainly the subject's "official title" (as determined by the palace) should be mentioned (and mentioned prominently) in the article... but if English language sources routinely refer to the subject in some non-official way, then that more commonly used form of reference is how we should entitle our article.  I have not looked into the sources, so I have no comment on whether the non-official form is more commonly used (or not)... and thus no !vote on the move request.  But Andrewa is correct as to how policy applies. Blueboar (talk) 13:45, 10 March 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.