Talk:Jacques Brel/Archive 1

La quête
Brel did not compose the music nor write the lyrics for La quête as the page previouslly stated- this was a translation of the Broadway song "The Impossible Dream" from the musical "The Man of La Mancha" (lyrics by Joe Darion, music by Mitch Leigh) I have removed it as an example of Brel's skills with musical composition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.133.236.252 (talk) 17:38, 8 April 2005 (UTC)


 * Yikes! It really said he wrote *that*? Well spotted! -Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:45, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I think we could still say that the French lyrics were 'written' by Brel though based on Darion's original. I looked at the two side by side and it is a very loose translation. Anyhow, there's a page here Homme de la Mancha which has Brel down as the composer for the songs. I'll go and put that straight. Mattley 18:09, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

biography
Anyone want to add something to his biography *before* moving to Paris? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.68.253 (talk) 07:18, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Added the most relevant facts. I'll leave it to someone with a better command of the English language to add more structure to the whole Biography bit. Bart van der Pligt 05:00, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be something about Brel living with a mistress in Polynesia as well? His surviving daughters are using their legal control of his official biography to keep the lid on that rather well-known fact, but I think it should be on Wikipedia. I'm not bold enough to start writing about it though :) 134.58.253.57 12:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that it certainly deserves discussion; Polynesia was important enough to him that he had himself buried there. Heather 22:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if Brel ever expressed any political views and opinions in his songs or in his life in general. The article says that he sang about society and spirituality, but the article talks little about his actual views. Was he campaigning against or for things? Did he have any strong political or religious beliefs, things like that? --82.171.70.54 (talk) 23:29, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Whatever religious views he expressed in his music were generally atheistic and certainly anti-clerical, and whatever political views he expressed were at least against "Flamingants" Flemish nationalists who wanted to split Belgium into two countries. 05:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djcartwright (talk • contribs)

About the Dutch
There's a big mistake in the article, no difference made between flemish people and flamingants, "His attitude towards the Flemish seemed contradictory" not contrdictory at all, he always declared being proud of being belgian, french and flemish, thats why he sang in dutch a bit, but flamingants are not just every flemish people, (here 's the big mistake) they are flemish people who hate's the french speaking they are nationalistic and whant's to seperate belgium in two, you can understand that for a real belgian as Brel those people where not appreciable please modify!


 * The section you refer to is about the song Les Flamandes. That song isn't about flamingants. I guess it's not about 'the' Flemish either but since Brel did call it les Flamandes (='Flemish women') and since it was one of his early successes it was the cause of lasting confusion about his attitude towards the Flemish. That's why it says: "His attitude towards the Flemish seemed contradictory".
 * The article continues: "Later in his career he directed his anger at the Flamingants." That shows that a difference is being made between Flemish and flamingants, doesn't it?
 * Another clear distinction: Les Flamandes is described as "mockery"; the anti-flamingant songs are described as an expression of "anger".
 * Maybe the article can be more clear about this but I don't believe it contains a "big mistake".
 * Bart van der Pligt 04:11, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
 * As though this situation needed to become any more confusing, there is a different song called Les F... which Brel introduces as "Les Flamingants" on the album Les Marquises. It is a very different song than Les Flamandes, being much later (1977).  "Anger" would, I think, accurately describe the emotion expressed in that song.  Heather 21:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

"My Death" and other Doc Shuman interpretations.
I am loathe to unbalance an article regarding a Belgium singer/songwriter (and poet) but I feel the English version should better detail the great influence Brel continues to have on British "popular" music. Many of Brels themes and points of view has entered the lexicon of popular music, generally via cover songs using Doc Shumans interpretations of Brels lyrics. Scott Walker is one of the most prolific coverers of Brel songs, so much so that there has been a compilation album released which is solely of Brel songs. Even more famously David Bowie performs "My Death" at the conclusion of the film Ziggy Stardust:The Motion Picture. The Sensational Alex Harvey Band, a 1970's theatrical/hard rock band, recorded a version of Next which was very popular on stage. Of the other British bands and artists given as performing Brel material, it is likely that they would have heard them first by the above three (and especially Walker).

My point is that I believe that the English language edition of Wikipedia should have a section dealing with the English translations of Brels songs, noting who covered what and what the original titles were. Like many English speakers I have little or no knowledge of other languages, and I was not able to discern any of my favourite Brel songs from the titles as given in the text (especially those where Shuman retitled the composition to better reflect an Anglicized take on the subject.) I feel that this would allow somebody searching for Brel songs in their English incarnation to more easily find this excellent article. As mentioned my own language skills are too poor for me to do, but I would implore any bilingual editor (with knowledge of Brels' songs in both the original and English varieties - must be hundreds!) to do so.LessHeard vanU 20:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Why would it take a bilingual author? I guess the Brits and Americans know best what songs were influential in English (My guess would be: if you go away, seasons in the sun and, perhaps first and foremost, the 'jb is alive and well' musical)
 * Maybe the list of cover versions on the dutch wikipedia can be of help? Bart van der Pligt 04:19, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Quite. I would suggest that it is "Amsterdam", "My Death", "Jackie", "Next" plus the others you mentioned. When I have time I will look at the link you suggested.LessHeard vanU 12:40, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

LessHeard vanU: Two keys to the right of your L key is a key that produces this symbol: '. The symbol is called an apostrophe, and it shows, among other things, possession. I recommend it. Thanks. 68.113.148.18 (talk) 11:18, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Translations
Can we get 3rd party sourced opinions of translations of his work? Comments like Rod McKuen’s insipid English translation  have no place on WP unless attributed to a notable critic. Ashmoo 05:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur; statements like "English translations... often strip them of their brilliance and magical lyricism" have no part on Wikipedia. (The parenthetical counterpoint hardly mitigates the biased generalization.)  But a more precise critique with a citation would be welcome.  --Trevor Burnham 07:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly sure that I came across Bowie's version of Amsterdam, possibly the BBC recording mentioned as unreleased until 2000, as the B-side of a single in the 1970s, probably Diamond Dogs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.152.56.117 (talk) 01:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Monoglot views of the world do not help. If you are not able to understand the original are you able to comment? I think not. I am happy with the comments on the english lyrics. They do not constitute original research and as for the need for a notable critic I think not. Remcee (talk) 14:05, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Are the translations of track titles official? "Bourgeois" in the article is translated as "middle class" but post-French Revolution the bourgeois class became the upper class. I am not a French speaker, so unsure if this applies to French language at the time of publication. 81.103.57.200 (talk) 11:18, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Jacques Brel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris
I have been trying for several weeks, to find a recording of the soundtrack from Jacques Brel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris - and whilst I am able to find very many copies of this they sound nothing like the copy I grew up listening to.

The LP I remember listening to in the late 70's early 80's was comprised of the songs predominatly featured in this musical but with one difference - they were performed by a woman with a deep, sensuous jazz club voice - deep, husky, laid back - you know the sound I am talking about!! For some reason I have the name Edith Piaff in my head and can't help thinking that the title was something like - "Edith Piaff Sings Jaques Brel is Alive and Well.. etc". I was just a kid at the time so my recollection is poor to say the least, none of my family have been able to assist, the LP is of course lost forever....

Please guys and gals - any assistance would be great!! And any suggestions of where else to look would also be appreciated.

Thanks for taking the time to consider my email. Best regards Mithril

=
====================================================================================================== Piaf was dead by the time of the show. Try Elly Stone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Brel_is_Alive_and_Well_and_Living_in_Paris

COMMENT ON THE ARTICLE
Eric Blau's wife, the singer Elly Stone, was involved with the first staging and I suppose recording of "JB is alive and well and living in Paris". She was performing Brel songs in the early sixties. Blau helped in the Mort Shuman translations and original mounting and staging of the show. She looked like a NY version of Piaf.

Generally, this article, while respectful and consistent in tone, lacks something of the brilliance, genius and impact of Jacques Brel. We must understand this guy makes Bob Dylan look like a minor troubador. I'll look at it carefully over time.

Cheers Andrew Hanos210.11.113.219 04:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with this. Not that i don't like good old Bob, but Brel was in a category of his own. I have already tried to make the distinction between "les Flamands" or "les flamandes"(which are respectively the male and female form), and "les Flamingants",who are the nationalists. As brel was very subtle with words, this distinction is vital to understand his ambivalence. Apart from that, Brel would sometimes use a "loving harshness" as a way to express himself. "les vieux" is a a good example of this, as it paints a harsh picture of the elderly, but yet it is loving and endearing.


 * Why are people always trying to compare Brel with Piaf? They have very little in common, other than both singing in French (not that Brel always did that, naturally).  The comparison of Stone to Piaf also seems strange to me--she didn't look or sound anything like her.  BTW, (FWIW) "New York Edith Piaf" is dangerously close to "Brooklyn Edith Piaf", a title held by Melanie last I checked.  LOL.  Heather 22:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I Just wanted to say...
Great article and great page about someone I didn't know about 5 weeks ago...I learned about Jacques Brel on YouTube and found this article. Great work Wikians! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tim Thorpe (talk • contribs) 08:17, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Abbé Brel
I heard his nickname was 'Abbé Brel'. Is this a play on words for the famous Abbé Breuil? 86.133.51.201 (talk) 11:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

focus bit misplaced
As it is written right now most of the lede focuses on the "English" artists who have covered Brel's songs. In fact the length of that portion of the lede is sufficient to have it moved to a section of it's own "English language covers of Brel" or something. But as it is, it makes it seem like the only reason to have this article in terms of notability is the fact that some more or less minor English language bands (compared to his own stature) bands covered his songs. Which is not the way it should be. So.. those parts need to be moved to another section way down in the article, and the lede should be expanded with basic biographic info and such. And of course the whole article could use expansion. If there's no objections, I'll proceed with the appropriate moves of text.radek (talk) 08:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Better picture
Is there anyway we can get a new picture for this article on Brel? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.144.145.51 (talk) 14:04, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

'songs in flemish'?
"although he recorded a number of songs in Flemish."

This should read: 'recorded a number of songs in Dutch'. Just because someone speaks with a distinct accent doesn't mean the name of the language changes. Johnny Cash recorded his songs in English, not in 'American'. Brel sang versions of his songs in Dutch (albeit with a French accent). Wysgeer (talk) 18:41, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

English translations of French titles
Regarding the presentation of English translations of French titles, I could not find guidance for this specific issue in the various Wikipedia style guides, other than pointers to the Chicago Manual of Style. I checked the CMS (16th edition) and it has this to say on English translations of foreign titles:

I removed the quotes and italics from the English translations of French titles and presented them sentence-style (capitalize the first word only and proper nouns).

Bede735 (talk) 13:11, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Wrong title of a chanson!!!
I'm sorry, but someone made a big mistake by stating, that one of Brèls chansons had the title "Là va le diable". The correct title is "Le diable (Ça va)". You can listen to that on YT and find the correct name here: http://www.jacquesbrel.be/mes-chansons/liste-des-titres Nordstern71 (talk) 02:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Possible rewrite
In reading this article, it is exhaustive. Literally.

I think it calls for a rewrite, one that addresses this issue of of each paragraph beginning with the word "In" followed by a date. While very complete in its facts, its repetition and rigid formula makes it a dreary read. Sjkoblentz (talk) 20:25, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

English translations of French titles
Regarding the presentation of English translations of French titles, the Chicago Manual of Style (16th edition) states:

The translations of French titles should be presented in sentence-style (capitalize the first word only and proper nouns). Bede735 (talk) 21:34, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Who influenced him?
This article gives considerable coverage to Brel's influence on others, but none that I can find to others' influence on him. Johnnie Ray comes to mind first.

They were near contemporaries (Ray a couple of years older) and had similarly intense and dramatic performance styles. Watching Brel sing "Ne me quitte pas" here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za_6A0XnMyw reminded me very much of Ray. Their extremely animated facial expressions and wrenching, almost self-sacrificial dedication to the emotion in the songs they sing—even the copious sweat—are hard not to compare. See Ray here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myu_wBPfpxs. Although the two songs may not be of comparable quality, their performance styles are very similar.

The fact that Ray had become a huge international star just a few years before Brel got his career started, and the fact that Ray was more popular in Europe than in the US, increase the possibility that he influenced Brel to some degree, if only by encouraging him not to hold anything back while performing.

I'm nowhere near an expert on either of these singer-songwriters, but maybe a music critic compared the two sometime in the middle to late 50s or early 60s. There may be others who influenced Brel too. It's not quite credible that no one influenced him, which is what the article currently implies by omission.--74.65.25.24 (talk) 04:41, 27 November 2014 (UTC)\
 * You raise a good question regarding Jacques Brel's influences. I believe there were two chanson singers who influenced Brel's early style during the post-war years: French singer Charles Trenet and Belgian singer Bobbejaan Schoepen. Toward the end of the 1950s his style began to change and became more melancholy—influenced by his collaborators Gérard Jouannest and François Rauber. I've not come across a connection between Ray and Brel, although it seems they had some of the same influences, particularly theatrical music. Bede735 (talk) 02:43, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Infobox
Infobox: today I needed a short bio of his including nationality, spouse/life partner, and children. It was missing from the Infobox and it was hard work to find it all in this French-style "roman-fleuve" article & elsewhere. Added the info, not in an elegant way, I know--pls. somebody help with fixing it technically! Thanks. Arminden (talk) 09:07, 24 September 2015 (UTC)Arminden
 * Brel's nationality is referenced in the first sentence of the lead. The musical artist infobox template does not include a nationality field or the spouse and children fields you wanted to add. Template:Infobox person addresses the issue of children's names in infoboxes. I added the additional information about his wife and partner to the lead, which is the appropriate place for this information. Regards, Bede735 (talk) 14:05, 24 September 2015 (UTC)