Talk:Jafar (Aladdin)

Images
We need to find the appropriate location of the images that failed to load on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArgentiumOutlaw (talk • contribs) 11:59, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Arabic notice
There was an Arabic notice here, saying: "This article is about a person, place, or concept whose name is originally rendered in the Arabic script". Disney's hero's name was not originally rendered in the Arabic script, however. --tyomitch 10:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

New image
To be honest, I don't like the image we have now. So we need a new one. TheBlazikenMaster 12:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Common, the article is pretty active, so can someone please discuss this? TheBlazikenMaster 21:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The new image looks great. TheBlazikenMaster 07:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Roger Rabbit characters (hope this will be the first real discussion on this talk page)
I have feeling this needs to be discussed. There should be valid reasons why it can't be here. I think I know the reason, since it's just one movie. But my reason probably won't stop people from re-adding the category, so let's discuss this. TheBlazikenMaster 17:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't need to be discussed. Anonymous user 66.245.192.78 keeps adding Category:Roger Rabbit characters to dozens of characters who are not Roger Rabbit characters. The category description states that the category is only for characters who originated in Roger Rabbit. 66.245.192.78 is a vandal. AJD 18:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

And another reason, Jafar NEVER APPEARED in the movie there for is NOT a character. User:AKR619 —Preceding unsigned comment added by AKR619 (talk • contribs) 03:29, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

I think that saying that Jafar "like many other characters in Aladdin, is based on a character in Richard Williams' unfinished animated film The Thief and the Cobbler. In this case, he is analogous to the latter film's villian ZigZag, who was voiced by Vincent Price" is a bit uncertain at best -- the main Aladdin article suggests similarities but by no means says it is BASED on that movie. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aladdin_%28film%29#Similarities_to_The_Thief_and_the_Cobbler —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.8.111.171 (talk) 04:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:KingdomHeartsJafar.PNG
Image:KingdomHeartsJafar.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 17:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Jafar.jpg
Image:Jafar.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 01:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone do something about this
Without the image we won't know how Jafar REALLY looks like. TheBlazikenMaster 17:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Flight category
I placed it here because he practically flew in the animation and video games (as a sorcerer and after he became a genie, not sure about Kingdom Hearts though). The category was removed by TheBlazikenMaster. Since he can fly by some use of power (see category description) I do not understand why the category has to be taken off. Can we get consensus here? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I did explain, he is really more floating than flying. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 19:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think the difference is that huge. Genie has been seen doing both (if you count the shape-changing). BTW, what powers does Jafar possess in Kingdom Hearts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I still disagree. But we need more people joining this discussion. Only us two simply ain't working. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 20:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry for being month late, but I am getting a third opinion. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 16:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I undid your edit. You acted as if I didn't give good arguements and examples while never answering my questions. And we'll need thoughts from several editors, not just only one. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 18:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying your arguments suck, you do make good ones, but this is a whole article, more people need to be in this discussion in order for the problem to be resolved. It can't be solved just by two people. What unanswered questions are you referring to by the way? TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 18:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This one, for starters. Simply put, when he becomes a genie he is seen using the ability moreso than when he was a wizard. If it was something akin to a one-time event like, say, Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time, then we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * How the hell am I going to reply to a question of a game I never play? TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 19:16, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, calm down. A simple "I don't know. I've never played the game, sorry." would have sufficed. And the characters I presented in my edit summary here, can't their levitational powers relate to Jafar's? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I get your point. But I still think more people should join this discussion. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 19:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yet, may I have an answer to the second question? Even better, make a YouTube video, that is, if you'd prefer. That would be interesting to watch, but it's your decision. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

No, I see completely the point now. He is flying when Abis Mal releases him for the first time, maybe not much, but it still counts. I believe this discussion has been resolved. After thinking about it, Jafar can fly, he does more than just floats. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 19:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Awww, no YouTube? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, I can find that myself. Jafar Kingdom Hearts would be the perfect tags for me. If you wanna discuss with me about some YouTube videos, please try to discuss it ON YouTube, my YouTube account is BlazikenMaster, we don't want to fill this discussion page with YouTube discussions, believe me. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 19:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually wanted you to answer my second question on a YouTube video made by you, not link a video game. Sorry for not stating it explicitly. I forgot my YouTube account name and password so I might just make another one. In the meantime, make a video responding to me? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The discussion has been solved, I don't have anything else to say. Neither here or in a YouTube video. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 20:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I know. It was just for fun but I guess we should go our separate ways. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 20:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It's time to tag this discussion, which I am doing in this edit. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 20:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Patrick Stewart

 * "Patrick Stewart was originally offered the role of Jafar, but scheduling conflicts with Star Trek: The Next Generation forced him to turn down the role. He has said in interviews that this is his biggest regret in his career, and in the top three of biggest regrets of his life.[2]"

This is what the article currently reads. I checked the source (2) that is listed for it and this is the only mention of the issue:
 * "Scheduling conflicts with "Star Trek: The Next Generation" (1987) forced Patrick Stewart to turn down the role of Jafar. He has said in interviews that this is his biggest regret"

'Biggest regret' certainly makes it fine to say 'biggest regret in his career' (heck, he may have meant his life too). What I don't understand is the source of the 'top three biggest regrets of his life'. This isn't mentioned at all, where is the source for this? If someone can't find one, I think that last part should be taken out. Saying 'career' is fine I guess, even if he didn't specify it it is probably the context in which he meant it. Tyciol (talk) 12:21, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the problem is we don't know if he meant it literally. Several people call all sorts of mistakes the biggest mistakes of their lives, how do we know it's REALLY his bigger regret? TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 12:28, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

No original research
This policy is exactly the reason why the personality section had to go. It will only be brought back if verifiable sources are added within its context. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 04:34, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I can think of several citations for the Personality section, most of them quotes by Jafar himself. I shall list them below.

Jafar is portrayed as a megalomaniac (Jafar himself crows "The power, the absolute POWER!") who will not hesitate to destroy anyone he perceives as a threat to his own sinister designs ("I think it's time to say goodbye to Prince Abubu"). He wears a metaphorical mask of normalcy throughout the film, establishing himself as a cool-headed schemer and gaining the trust of those around him ("You are most gracious my liege" - "I assure you your highness, it won't happen again"), despite his rather untrustworthy physical appearance. Even with this mask, Jafar's villainous tendencies tend to seep through and become apparent to the viewer, particularly in the opening sequence, where Jafar displays no remorse in sending Gazim the Thief to his death in the Cave of Wonders, simply proclaiming that "Gazim was obviously less than worthy" in a rather dry tone of voice. The deleted song "Humiliate the Boy" also establishes Jafar as an emotional sadist, getting a laugh out of seeing "another fellow's dreams turn into nightmares one by one" and treating the Genie in an especially harsh manner (one only has to watch the video, a link to which is provided, in which Jafar viciously tugs the genie's beard several times whilst shouting orders like "Do as I say"). It is not until Jafar gains control of the Genie's lamp that he fully shows his true colors, becoming even more arrogant and short-tempered with his subjects after usurping power from the Sultan ("Don't talk back to me you big blue lout! You are to do what I order you to do! Slave). It is this impulsive behavior that leads to his downfall, as he uses his third wish to become an omnipotent genie, unaware of the life inside the lamp that he now has to endure.

Jafar is usually shown to be somewhat comedic and plucky (giving a slightly human side to his usual malevolence, a trait not often seen in Disney villains), even in his times of evil and cunning, proclaiming "Ewww..." when contemplating decapitation. This, however, doesn't keep Jafar from having a sub-par sense of humor himself, spurting several puns in a row while keeping Aladdin and his friends from getting the lamp during the film's climax ("Your time is up!", "Don't toy with me!", "Things are unraveling fast now, boy!", "Get the point?", "I'm just getting warmed up!") This comical humor does not carry over in the film's direct-to-video sequel, which aimed to make Jafar more sinister and ruthless, though it is referenced in Jafar's role in "Hercules and the Arabian Night".

Can't think of a citation for that last sentence so maybe we should leave that out. Any thoughts? --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 17:30, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * What citations are you talking about? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 17:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Erm, how about the ones I just provided. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 18:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * These aren't citations. This is you looking at the film, taking quotes from the character, and drawing your own conclusions based on them. That is the definition of original research. Look, I'm sorry, but Wikipedia is just not the place for you to do your own character analyses and personality/psychology profiles. Pure and simple. If you can find reliable secondary sources that have done these kind of analyses of the character, then you can add their findings with citations to those sources. But the film itself is a primary source, and when you insert your own interpretation of a primary source, you're doing original research. It doesn't matter how many quotes from the film you provide. --IllaZilla (talk) 18:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * This is laughably contemptable.

"Just because a character in a film says she's a girl and has breasts, doesn't mean she is actually is a girl! That's original research. Lord help us!"

Furthermore, IllaZilla I haven't included any psychological analysis in the above description. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 18:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Sure you have: you called him a megalomaniac, an emotional sadist, and prone to impulsive behavior. And the comparison you're making to stating that someone is male or female is not the same thing. You can say "Jafar is male", "Jafar is the sultan's advisor", or "Jafar has facial hair" because these are objective facts that are explicitly verified by the primary source. However, making analytical and synthetic claims like "Jafar is portrayed as a megalomaniac who will not hesitate to destroy anyone he perceives as a threat to his own sinister designs. He wears a metaphorical mask of normalcy throughout the film, establishing himself as a cool-headed schemer" is different. This is your own analylsis of the character that is not easily or explicitly verified by the primary source. You need to quote some other sources to support those claims. --IllaZilla (talk) 19:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Megalomania is as I have stated before, not a mental illness, it's a personality trait. It's the same with impulsive behaviour and emotional sadism. I really fail to see why we are not allowed to make any comments about his personality, no matter how obvious they are. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 22:10, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe because of WP:VERIFY? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 22:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * IllaZilla seems to suffer from a deep-rooted hatred of psychiatry. Personally I think he or someone close to him was given poor or unreliable advice from a psychiatrist in the past perhaps with unfortunate consequences. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 23:30, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Do us all a favor and lay off the personal attacks. Not just to me, but others as well. I have absolutely no problem with psychiatry. I have a problem with your habit of engaging in original research despite being cautioned and warned, not just by me, but by other editors as well. Yet for some reason you continue with this pattern, with excuses like "WP:Synthesis is a completely ignorable policy in my opinion." . Frankly, your opinion doesn't represent the consensus of the Wikipedia community, which is why WP:NOR exists and why your original research is, and will continue to be, constantly reverted; again, not just by me. The fact is that this is an encylopedia, and while constructive contributions are welcome, it's been made quite clear to you that unsourced analysis & synthesis of primary source material is not only not welcome, but is against one of our core policies. If you choose to ignore this, I'm afraid you're going to find it very difficult to get others to assume good faith on your behalf. Your flippant attitude about it isn't ingratiating anyone to your way of thinking, either. --IllaZilla (talk) 06:52, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Firstly you misspelled "favour." Secondly I haven't made any personal attacks against you, I've just accused you of having a hatred of psychiatry which some people do. Furthermore, WP:Synthesis is indeed a completely ignorable and unnecessary policy and if my opinion doesn't represent the consensus of the Wikipedia community then maybe said consensus needs to be changed. Encyclopedias are like intuitive organisms. Sooner or later they need to evolve. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 00:51, 1 November 2008 (UTC)


 * He didn't misspell 'favour', he just spelt it the American way. Don't tell him off for spelling differently! 90.192.200.221 (talk) 00:55, 1 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The encyclopedia has evolved. It has evolved to the point where it excludes original research of any kind. That is a policy that was written and refined over several years of discussion and consensus-building. It's not going to change just because you don't agree with it, and frankly you need to either accept it and work within its guidelines or simply stop editing Wikipedia. Your opinion is vastly in the minority on this issue, and you've been active on Wikipedia long enough, and been spoken to by enough other editors, to be well aware of this. And yes, you did engage in personal attacks. On Wikipedia, personal attacks include "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence." One would think that being blocked for personal attacks and uncivil edits due to your above comment would have made that point rather clear. Since you don't seem to respond well to any type of constructive discussion, I'm going to lay this out plainly: If you continue to blatantly ignore core policies which have been explained to you multiple times, including inserting your own analysis or synthesis of primary sources without references, I am going to take the issue to RfC. With that said, I consider this conversation over. --IllaZilla (talk) 01:14, 1 November 2008 (UTC)


 * All Americans spell favour wrong due to their morbid phobia of the letter "u." Furthermore, the encyclopedia may well have evolved to the point that it excludes original research of any kind but bear in mind that sometimes you have to tear down to rebuild and that's what I intend to do. Tear down. My opinion might be in the minority, but I'm still right. And that won't change because people don't agree with me and eventually they will. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 10:10, 1 November 2008 (UTC)


 * That's exactly the attitude that's just going to get you continually reverted & blocked: "Everyone disagrees with me, but I still think I'm right, so I'm going to continue to flout policy and consensus until people do things the way I think they should be done." If you continue down that road, you're basically just taunting people to ban you, and eventually they will. If that's really the way you think, then I'm quite certain that Wikipedia is not the place for you and will be better off without your contributions. Arrogance and egotism are detrimental to a collaborative environment and we are all better off without them. --IllaZilla (talk) 22:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Genie Pic
Not a major editor for articles like this, but it seems to me a pic for his Genie form would help the article along a bit, as his transformation is a big part of the character. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find one. The Clawed One (talk)

Redirect usage
About that, I don't see why the style guide have to be ignored. Of course, WP:IAR is moot; I don't even see consensus (which is generally required, see what IAR means). You know, WP:D is very clear when it comes to situations like these, and I for one would much rather adhere to the spirit of Wikipedia than be ignorant. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 05:57, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Calling those who disagree with you 'ignorant' does nothing but weaken your argument. Please quote the relevant line from that guideline; none of them that I see mandate linking to a (notated) page in a hatnote that only redirects to an unnotated disambig page. seresin ( ¡? )  06:17, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * For the record, I think it makes much more sense to link to the actual page rather than the redirect. I mean, come now. &mdash; Anonymous Dissident  Talk 06:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

If you folks are suggesting that because the redirect is being "erroneously" utilised in a hatnote, then the fallacy is very much incorrect. But if you insist on seeing some precedence, there's Flash (comics), Pika, Watchmen, The Pursuit of Happyness, Bongo drum, Joker (comics), Majin Buu, Jim Carrey, Cidade de Deus, Original video animation, List of Dragon Ball characters ... (need I say anymore)? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 06:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd be more inclined to accept your precedent, if you weren't the one who isresponsible for every singleoneofthem. Try again. seresin ( ¡? )  07:29, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * How's this, which Sesshomaru is not responsible for -- it's my own most recent application of the guideline. Please, use (disambiguation) redirects for intentional links to disambiguation pages, even if the original request to do so was insulting.  Using the redirect helps editors who work on repairing links to disambiguation pages -- they can use "What links here" on a base-name dab page and immediately skip over the incoming links to the (disambiguation) link.  This is the point of the WP:INTDABLINK guideline. Cheers! -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * While Sesshomaru's intemperate comments often make civil discussion difficult, he is correct in this case. As JHunterJ describes, this is common practice. older ≠ wiser 14:26, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * How about a link of the form  to prevent the redirect and comply with the guideline? Would that make everyone happy? &mdash;  Anonymous Dissident  Talk 14:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No. That doesn't comply with the guideline, mainly because it presents the same problem to disambig-link repairers: piping the link to the base name means that it shows up in "What links here" as a direct link. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:47, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * See also WP:R. Even outside of the disambiguation space, there is nothing wrong with linking to a redirect. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:49, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, the rationale is that there should not be any direct links to disambiguation pages (or stated differently, any direct links to a disambiguation page are mistaken). older ≠ wiser 14:51, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm, fair enough. But I would note that there are some cases where redirects should not be linked to; "unprintworthy", I think we call them. But that's not applicable here. &mdash; Anonymous Dissident  Talk 14:52, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Right, if a link to a redirect should be changed, it's because there's some additional reason beyond "it's just a redirect". -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:56, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Inspiration
Could be barking up the wrong tree entirely but just thought to mention: could it be possible that the name 'Jafar' is at all influenced by Mir Jafar of 18th century Bengal, a traitor who, for intents and purposes placed the throne of Bengal into British hands. Really don't know but just thought to mention it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.13.83.99 (talk) 23:42, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
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