Talk:Jakarta/Archive 2

Largest Megacity by 2030
If Jakarta's population grows to 35.6m by 2030 as estimated in source 11, and Tokyo's population falls by the 2 million estimated in source 11, Jakarta still will not have over taken Tokyo. Yet the article states: "Jakarta is predicted to reach 35.6 million people by 2030 to become the world's biggest megacity." I'm a little confused as to where this comes from. ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rtbittaker (talk • contribs) 16:30, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I think someone's overlooking the greater metropolitan area of Shanghai, China. 104.169.29.171 (talk) 22:30, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

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2022-01-18 No longer capital
Per CNN on January 18, 2022, "(CNN) — Indonesia has named its new capital Nusantara, as lawmakers approve the shift from Jakarta to Kalimantan -- a jungle-covered area on the east of Borneo island. The new name translates to 'archipelago' in the Indonesian language. Concerns over the sustainability of the congested and rapidly sinking political center of Jakarta prompted the need for a new capital, and the nation's House of Representatives officially passed a bill on Tuesday regarding the relocation." The article will need to be updated. &mdash; MrDolomite &bull; Talk 13:16, 18 January 2022 (UTC)


 * No it won't. The city of "Nusantara" is only a plan - it does not yet exist. Regards Davidelit (Talk) 13:19, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

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 * Coat of Arms of East Nusa Tenggara NEW.png

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 * Istiqlal Mosque at night, Jakarta.jpg

Dont remove photo montase and flag emblem
User:Ckfasdf Please do not delete the photo montage and the flag of the Jakarta logo because Jakarta is a special region (expecially Capital Region of Jakarta), as well as the provinces of Tokyo, Manila, Bangkok and Kuala Lumpur Whatsup236 (talk) 08:01, 18 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Let the above discussion play out please. Mako001 (C) (T)  🇺🇦 13:16, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Why photo montage and the flag is removed ?
User:Ckfasdf deleted the photo montage in the infobox Jakarta, and the flag. And then which was added by the IP address user. Ckfasdf cited this discussion for deletion, where it was agreed that Indonesian provinces should not have images in their infoboxes. However, in this discussion User:Juxlos said that Jakarta might be an exception because it is more of a city and (Special Capital Region). Other articles for important cities with special province/state like status, such as Kuala Lumpur (Federal Territory),Tokyo (Metropolis), Metro Manila (Territory), and Washington, DC (Federal District) have pictures in their info boxes. Should Jakarta have a picture in the infobox? Baqotun0023 (talk) 07:01, 18 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Since Jakarta is also one of province in Indonesia, that consensus should also applies. We don't have similar consensus yet for next sub-division (cities/regencies). However, as mentioned on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia, exception for Jakarta is not really unreasonable as it is basicly a city with province-level government.


 * I am pinging all editors that participate on previous discussion. Please let us know your comments.


 * In regards to the flag, as mentioned before Provincial flags do not have any legal status in Indonesia. They are not even used anywhere, except in sport events. For simple checking, just go visit each of the provinces' website, and you wouldn't find any of those flags. Hence flags should still be removed from the infobox. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:23, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * True, but for Jakarta, the photo montage cannot be deleted because it is at the capital city level, and on every wikipedia the national capital is displayed with a photo montage.
 * @Juxlos said that Jakarta doesn't matter if you post the photo, because it's still on the same level as a city
 * if you wish, I will delete photo montages in 5 administrative cities, and 1 regencies in Jakarta. Baqotun0023 (talk) 09:17, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * In photo montage of Jakarta, as Juxlos said (Agree, aside from Jakarta (more a city really) and maybe Bali and Yogyakarta, none of the provinces should have images. I will pull a WP:BOLD and nuke the pictures, if to at least trigger discussion.) Baqotun0023 (talk) 09:21, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Jakarta is a city - like it or not. There are no rules saying that provinces are not allowed to have images in the infobox, and we opted to remove them without prejudice because they tended to be basically stuff from the local tourist department. Jakarta is a different thing altogether as it’s a province in administrative terms only. Juxlos (talk) 09:38, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the explanation, perhaps if you are willing please to revert it Baqotun0023 (talk) 09:50, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * No need to hurry... lets wait for other editors to comment. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:55, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Jakarta is a city, in a sense of that from Wikipedia, which is a "human settlement of notable size" like Kuala Lumpur, Tokyo, Manila, Washington DC, etc. The default for city in Wikipedia is to have a photo montage, so the photo shouldn't be removed until a consensus is reached to remove it, not the other way around.
 * As for the flag, I started this discussion in 2017 because the flags are probably fictitious. Based on that discussion, turns out there is a law for the flag, though the law does not specify the flag's background colour. Hddty (talk) 01:53, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Govt Regulation No 77 of 2007 only allow regional govt to have their own logo, flag and etc, not to define the each regional govt logo. Recent govt regulation on logo usually also include flags. However, almost all of regulation on province logo dates back +50 years ago (such as perda prov jatim no 3 tahun 1966, perda jabar No. 11/PD/DPRD-GR/61, perda jakarta no 6 tahun 1963) and with no mention of province flag. So most of them still without legal status. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:46, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, the major problem with the flags is the background color. Regulations generally state that the coat-of-arms can be displayed on a unicolor background (with red being proscribed, as far as I remember), but there are no official regulations about which color is to be used. There are some common de facto versions that are generally used (often green, for obvious politicized religious reasons), but for our purpose, attestation of usage is not enough. –Austronesier (talk) 10:19, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @Ckfasdf @Austronesier: Just today I tried researching about this topic after a very long time and it turns out that the local law regulating the color are exists (Google search keyword: ):    . This one from South Tangerang is the exception because the color is still not even specified. Hddty (talk) 15:02, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * yes, reference (regulation) for flag on city/regency level are somewhat easier to find (esp. post-2007). Btw you can also use "pataka" for alternative Google search keyword. However, for province level, it's a different story... esp. on Jakarta.. pretty much non-existant. So flag for Jakarta should still be removed. Ckfasdf (talk) 15:45, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Great! This really shows that we have to look at these things on a case-by-case basis. But our default assumption should always that there is none unless proven otherwise (= WP:V). –Austronesier (talk) 19:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @Ckfasdf I found Peraturan Pemerintah No. 77 Tahun 2007 concerning regional symbols written in Bab 2 Pasal 2 which reads Regional symbols include:
 * a. logos;
 * b. flag;
 * c. the flag of the regional head; and
 * d. hymn.
 * Source : Baqotun0023 (talk) 08:48, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
 * , found that regulation earlier, but then again that regulation didn't specify flag of Jakarta. It's WP:V issue. Ckfasdf (talk) 14:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, but in general description the article also mentions the city of Jakarta implicitly, sorry it's out of topic, apart from the article city of Jakarta, was there a law that regulates the existence of provincial/city flags?
 * If not, why are flags still displayed in every province/city besides Jakarta? Baqotun0023 (talk) 14:58, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
 * they will be removed as well as they also failing WP:V. Please note that it is not easy to maintain WP articles. Ckfasdf (talk) 23:27, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Since the discussion on provincial topics at consensus it is said that montage images may be displayed, but a maximum of 5 lines. Baqotun0023 (talk) 11:06, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the comparison of Jakarta to Tokyo is more apt. People unfamiliar with Indonesia's and Japan's administrative division structure don't know that Jakarta and Tokyo are not literally cities and are in fact first-level metropolises with smaller municipalities and separate mayors underneath them. But the average reader will expect Jakarta and Tokyo to be "cities" given their capital statuses, so I would lean on WP:IAR here and restore the montage. (No comment on how many images though.) — Arsonal (talk + contribs) — 15:47, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @Arsonal: The same goes for many other cities too, they are made up of more than just a single municipality. I'd support re-adding the photos. (Though I also think that this discussion should be allowed to run to some sort of completion before doing so) Mako001 (C) (T)  🇺🇦 14:02, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * So, when we can restore with WP:IAR at the montage image it ? Baqotun0023 (talk) 14:29, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:IAR is good until a discussion sets it. In an ongoing discussion, it turns into hukum rimba :) But that said, I also support to treat Jakarta like other major cities (in Indonesia and worldwide). The fact that its administrative level equals that of a province shouldn't inhibit this. –Austronesier (talk) 19:44, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @Rumahkedua what do you opinion about the montage and flag images in Jakarta, should they be deleted? Meanwhile, the entire national capital city in the Wikipedia article displays the montage photos and flag emblem
 * and do you agree with ? Whatsup236 (talk) 13:53, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

because if many support Jakarta as a metropolitan city, so I would lean on WP:IAR forever Baqotun0023 (talk) 15:39, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Again: WP:IAR means "ignore all rules", not "ignore all editors who disagree with you". The latter attitude is summarized in WP:GIANTDICK.
 * It should be obivous that 1) the flag is unsourced and 2) multiple editors oppose its inclusion until the verifiability issue is solved. Note also that in real life the flag technically is just a piece of cloth that allows to hiss the coat-of-arms on a flagpost. The only visible difference between the flag and the coat-of-arms is the background color. And as of now, no-one has provided a reliable source for the official background color of the Jakarta flag. –Austronesier (talk) 20:08, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

It's been few days from initial discussion, but I have yet to find editors who really disagree on inclusion of photos (how many photos are different discussion). For photos, it seems the consensus is to put Jakarta as an exception of previous consensus, since Jakarta is basically a city with province-level government, and average reader wouldn't notice the difference status between Jakarta as province and as city. Also, it was consistent to other major/capital city articles.

But no exception on flag issue yet. Since it's clearly falling WP:V. As mentioned above, no-one has provided a reliable source for the official background color of the Jakarta flag. Heck, simple Google search can found Jakarta flag but with different background color (such as here and here). Ckfasdf (talk) 23:27, 22 January 2023 (UTC)


 * No qualms on not including photos under WP:RS. Juxlos (talk) 00:30, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * thank you I agree if the flag is removed in accordance with the WP:V, not with the photo montage Baqotun0023 (talk) 01:00, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Can't help but notices all the flags from the Provinces wikipage (and more) have been removed, while I agree some Wikipage have too much images but I have to disagree on the removal of flags as they do have Legal basis (as mentioned above) and they do exist on Government operated sites if you are willing to look for specific news/stories article. Provincial/Regional flags are placed next to the National flag often seen in Governor's Office/room (here), and respective regional Government building's courtyard (here), they are also sometimes placed on meeting halls (here), visitation/guest room (here), entrances, Town Hall (here), and even conference rooms (here). Additionally as mentioned before no one have good citations for what the Flag of DKI Jakarta's background is and even found some inconsistencies, I would personally use whatever colour is flown/used by the officials (White) in said Official rooms, etc. and ignore the other one (Black) for after a quick google search the source came from a seller in an E-Commerce website online, hardly official. For those reasons I think the Flags should be reinstated. On a similar subject the logo/symbol/CoA seems supposed to have a green coloured Stem for the bottom left one as seen on the images I mentioned. -EvoSwatch (talk) 07:27, 24 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Since the issue is not only affected Jakarta, but also other provinces. Kindly please continue the discussion here. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @EvoSwatch: Upside down for me. I agree more if the flag each province (expecially in Jakarta) is removed in accordance with WP:V, but not with photo montages because Jakarta is side by side with metropolitan cities around the world, therefore for photo montages I and the contributors agree with WP:IAR Baqotun0023 (talk) 09:51, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Weasel attempt to blame recurring flooding of Jakarta on climate change
In Section "Geography", it seems that someone has inserted blame on climate change despite the fact in precedent sentence as well as few sentences before and later, the reasons for flooding is explained that does not involve any blame on climate change or even suggest the flooding is due to climate change. Here it is: "'These rivers, combined with the wet season rains and insufficient drainage due to clogging, make Jakarta prone to flooding. This flooding is related to climate change.'" Also earlier in the same section, it is mentioned that:
 * 1. 13 rivers flow through Jakarta,
 * 2. Jakarta lies in a low and flat alluvial plain, some of it below see level, and on extensive swampy areas.
 * 3. Some parts of the city are on reclaimed tidal flats,
 * 4. Jakarta is sinking about 5 to 10 cm a year, among others, due to water extraction of ground water (some of it illegal).

I understand that that the sentence about blaming climate change for Jakarta sinking has a citation attached. However, one could find citation for just about anything. Here, the blame on climate change has not even slightest reflection in any of the preceding or following sentences and is like a foreign object on the body of the article. Therefore, I am removing the following sentence from Geography section: This flooding is related to climate change — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.225.161.193 (talk) 00:38, 11 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Whilst human effects are almost entirely to blame, it's a lot more directly than via climate change here. To say that it is "related to climate change" is rather vague. I could stop watering my garden, and say (correctly) that its subsequent demise was in some way "related to climate change", but that still wouldn't change the fact that the main reason it shrivelled up and died was because I stopped watering it. Mako001 (C) (T)  🇺🇦 13:29, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * See new section below regarding image captions. I cut the reference to climate change that had been re-inserted. Martindo (talk) 21:15, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Jacatra?
Why does Jacatra redirect to this page? The redirect requires a disambig statement to Jacatra (cicada). Wouldn't it be better to make the cicada the prime topic? --Merbabu (talk) 03:00, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. While most search hits for "Jacatra" (e.g. in Google Scholar) refer to the historical spelling of Jakarta, "Jacatra" is an unlikely search topic for the city in WP. If someone stumbles across "Jacarta" in a history book, it will be obvious that it refers to Batavia/Jakarta. And most likely, people will look up for "Jakarta". OTOH, if you come across "Jacatra" in a biology text, there is no other option than to search for the term itself. Swapping primary topics makes good sense here. I guess we will need someone with page mover rights to this. And probably a move discussion if this turns out to be controversial. –Austronesier (talk) 19:46, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * A greater problem IMO is that the verifieddate of Tomes's use of the name occurs *before* the Jayakarta renaming/invasion. This suggests that the chronology of the city's names is fuzzier than the text claims. Martindo (talk) 21:17, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Image captions
As per discussion above regarding the Geography section, I revised the caption for the sea level image, removing the OR reference to climate change "vulnerability" that contradicts the text about river flooding. (The text could be improved by noting the effects of garbage blocking drainage, as well as denuding of trees in the surrounding hills in order to build luxury homes.)

In addition, I corrected the inflated claim that Taman Anggrek is the largest mall in Indonesia. This 2020 Kompas article in Bahasa Indonesia ranks it #5, based on net leasable area, ranking Pakuwon Surabaya as #1: https://money.kompas.com/read/2020/11/23/144600026/deretan-7-mal-terbesar-di-indonesia-siapa-juaranya?page=all The article also debunks the assumption that Jakarta's biggest is automatically the biggest in the country. Martindo (talk) 21:24, 13 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Ok, info is accepted, if you wish you can add it info to here Baqotun0023 (talk) 11:11, 22 March 2023 (UTC)