Talk:James Arthur Ray

Plastic Shaman in See also
WP:ALSO says the section is for related and relevant links. If there were reliable sources for including Plastic Shaman then it would be in the main text. The term is relevant and is from unreliable sources as a colloquialism. I am disappointed its inclusion is being simply seen as pejorative, because to be so there would have to be a subject applying it in that meaning for liable harm. I am but an editor serving wiki's relevance for the reader's benefit first, no BLP harm intended. If anything, a statement after the term is required. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 04:42, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I must declare my bias before editing further. Without turning this page into a forum .... I tend to rocks and fire in an authentic ceremony conducted by white men under tribal consent and guidance. The recent events potentially threaten our rights and freedom to practice. The NPOV I aim to include under wiki standard is the disrespect to sovereign governance (tribal, site owner, U.S. and personal) in the construction and operation of the lodge. I am particular intrested in which power(s) Mr Ray submits responsibility to o. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 14:04, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Zulu, look I understand your bias and interest, but do you think "The absence of oversight and respect to elders was said to contribute to the unfortunate events" is really accurate. First, it's vague, oversight. Who? Just lay what the American Indian sources say, but without being esotertic..."lack of respect of elders"... I think without context, people will get lost on that. It's pretty clear what happened wasn't neccessarily because of what you assert, but likely because the folks that ran it were negligent according to the reports. Perhaps they were negligent because of failure to take American Indian guidance or other common medical sense, but that's a different issue. If I were you, I'd start a new section "American Indian Perspective" and lay out the arguments there. I think that's even more potent for your purposes. That's why some are calling this a "box" instead of a lodge, because many don't view it as a lodge. I hope people don't turn on the sweat lodges, themselves, because of an incident of misuse like I hope people don't turn on other useful things misused. I'd definitely emphasize the fact it was "makeshift" as reports say. I'd emphasize the differences in contruction. That should serve your purpose and maintain clarity. I'm new and just learning how to signoff. MissouriMark


 * My purpose must serve wiki ... the sentences/section can be better said and attributed, I believe the point to be made is the absent of traditional practices and contrasting what those can be. The paragraph is developing. Thanks for the comment, don't let me stop you. Go ahead and edit. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 13:20, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Wow. Zulu, you are an excellent writer and Editor, a true professional. The form is impeccable, the only thing missing is content. Three people died. The dude just did not know what he was doing other than collecting big fat paychecks. Nobody is questioning the art then tech sweat lodge experience. And my thing however I have done Every Brazilian Rainforest medicina, even frog 🐸 poison, In groups and lo and behold! those Shamanic assholes didn’t know what they were doing either. I went to the ER with severe chest pain’s and I was told by 2 Doctors I had had a cardiac event. By two doctors. Then I had a $22,000 cardiac catheterization and then a $9000 pulmonary something something where they made me breath radioactive gas.

Ha! Who is singing the self-absorbed blues now? I am such a hypocrite. Projecting on this for innocent Ray Wayne James Earl Jones fellow. Poor me poor me pour me a drink!

What do you say to that? As the end of the I’m sorry let me rephrase, as Rajneesh’s Sunyasi lawyer declared at the end of The excellent documentary  “wild wild country,” “It’s all a Gurdjiefian (sp?) Device, devised  to challenge and see what one is made of.“

I call it life. C’est la vie. Nobody died. Nobody is doing nothing. Excuse the poor grammar, punctuation, syntax, and just plain laziness of this small notes. Thank you for your wonderful editing and writing and attention to detail. FoxFactChechChick (talk) 15:51, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

What’s up, half of my diatribe is in, I don’t know how to say this! it’s in a box with like newspaper print, new Courier and Ive’s font, I believe. haha

The fox news check chick handle is really paying off, isn’t it? 🐣

Have a wonderful day. PS, do Zulus speak Swahili? I could look it up on Wikipedia, but I’m too lazy right now. I do know this; Zulus do not get lost in the jungle. That information courtesy of Leon Russell. Bye! FoxFactChechChick (talk) 15:57, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Where for cometh Ray?
What is Ray's history? Is it opposed to "his story"? The article claims "James' father was an Oklahoma preacher ... until 1973 ... in Tulsa", But at the heading of the article lists his place of birth as Honolulu, Hawaii. Tulsa's a long way from Honolulu last time I checked a map. Just wondering if this paradox needs to be looked into and perhaps brought into compliance with reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.110.75.6 (talk) 05:45, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It does seem a little unusual, but not impossible; his father might have been in the military and stationed in Hawaii, for example. The real problem is that there is very little info on Ray that doesn't come directly or indirectly from him, and I'm not sure he is a reliable source. Someone should find a source for the Hawaii birth or else it should be removed. I will take a look next time I have a little time. Brianyoumans (talk) 15:54, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Ha! Maybe he was born in the same hospital as Barack Obama and doesn’t have a legit certificate. JK JK JK

But seriously folks, I was thinking the same exact thing; not as much about being born in Honolulu to the hellfire and brimstone preacher and his poor as a fiddler’s wife in 1957. (I don’t know if the Korean War was still going on or not, so, Being too lazy to Wikipedia the Korean War even though I’m currently on Wikipedia, I am obliged to give them a pass on that. However, my bigger concern is that James Earl Ray or whatever his name is insist that He was trained by Shamans in Peru or some crap like that. I would like to see his passport’s stamp on that trip. Perhaps he was born in Peru and raised by Llamas. That would explain the birth certificate mystery. I do not believe that this Sociopathic megalomaniac, who’s only concern is for himself and not for the victims families, (yes I just saw the documentary where he’s crying crocodile tears and falsely apologizing to the families at the ‘before the sentencing’ phase, then Just as abruptly as he started the waterworks he turned them off and turned around without even looking at them. His body English is screaming screaming screaming guilt guilt guilt. I doubt he was trained in any form of anything ever at all! An Elmer Gantry New Age ConMan. Just one other thing, please. Does anybody know if the families of the victims have filed for the wrongful death lawsuit in a civil court? That is how they got OJ. Of course involuntary manslaughter had to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal court. In a civil court the criteria for verdict is from a pre-ponderance of the evidence. Much easier to prove negligent homicide, as people were attempting to exit the tent yet due to his bullying and the groupthink peer pressure, they stayed in the death lodge and three people died. On the docu., you know who is boo hoo hooing about “how this terrible accident has changed MY LIFE.” He accepts full responsibility, yet in the next nano-second insinuates that his “well paid staff” were not doing their jobs. “I me mine, I me mine, I me mine.“ (George Harrison, music & lyrics)

(Google Julia silverls, PhD., and Dahn Yoga)

Thank you so much for your time and trouble. Excellent writing and research. My interest is piqued. I always knew the secret was one of those fads that appealed to bored housewives with low self esteem and fat wallets! Rank amateurs. Perhaps James Earl Ray or whatever his name is (btw, the name Ray is code for crazy) went to a Surgeon’s College where he learned how to do a Wallet Biopsy. Spartan University in St. Lucia, no doubt.

Call off the search! God is right here, there is no other place. God is right now, there is no other time! Geez, even I know that, and I’m a card-carrying Pastafarian. He’s got the whole world in his Noodley appendages. FoxFactChechChick (talk) 15:28, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Early Safety concerns, paragraph five
Re: Early Safety concerns, paragraph five. Dear Editor, this is fox news check chick  with a quick question. Could you please clarify the correlation between the woman noted as falling to her death from a hotel and dressing like a homeless person? We need more information on this. How did she fall, why did she fall, did it have anything to do with the program or was it an accident? Was it the being dressed in homeless rags that made her trip and fall over the balcony of the 10th floor of a hotel? Inquiring minds want to know... Could you please help, I am currently watching documentation on this subject and would like to know more and appreciate your help and your attention and you’re fine writing skills. Thank you, fncc FoxFactChechChick (talk) 14:41, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Some proposed changes
Information to be added or removed:

1. In the first paragraph, please remove the line on 'convicted of felony negligent homicide.' Please change the first paragraph to

James Arthur Ray (born November 22, 1957) is a motivational speaker and author of Harmonic Wealth: The Secret of Attracting the Life You Want, which was a New York Times bestseller.

2. Please re-arrange the sentences in the second paragraph as follows:

In 2006, Ray appeared on CNN's Larry King Live and was one of several narrators in the film The Secret. He also appeared on the Today Show and Oprah. Ray taught Stephen Covey motivational seminars while employed at AT&T and claimed he later worked two years for the Covey foundation; however the company has no record of him.

3. Please change the 3rd paragraph to the following:

In 2011, Ray was convicted of negligent homicide, after his arrest for the deaths of three participants in one of his New Age retreats. He served two years in Arizona state prison and was released under supervision in 2013. Ray re-launched his career as a motivational speaker in 2016.

4. Please remove the last line of the paragraph under the 'Childhood' section

5. Please change the 3rd paragraph of the section 'Early safety concerns', to

Former attendees of Ray's seminars have reported unsafe practices and lack of properly trained medical staff in 2005. A New Jersey woman shattered her hand in a seminar held at Walt Disney World. She was allegedly pressurized by Ray to participate in a board-breaking exercise. After several unsuccessful attempts, the woman sustained multiple fractures.

6. Please remove the 4th paragraph of the section 'Early safety concerns'

7. Please replace the last paragraph of the section 'Early safety concerns' with the following:

In 2005, a serious injury involving hospitalization was reported at the Angel Valley Ranch during a "Spiritual Warrior" retreat led by Ray. Verde Valley fire department was summoned after a 42-year-old man had fallen unconscious after exercises inside a sweat lodge.

8. Please replace the section on 'Sweat lodge deaths' with the following:

On October 8, 2009, at a New Age "Spiritual Warrior" retreat hosted by Ray at the Angel Valley Retreat Center in Sedona, Arizona, two participants, James Shore and Kirby Brown, died during a sweat lodge exercise, while Liz Neuman, another attendee, died on October 17 after being in coma for a week. 21 others were hospitalized after suffering burns, dehydration, breathing problems, kidney failure or elevated body temperature. The attendees, who had paid up to $10,000 to participate in the retreat, had fasted for 36 hours during a vision quest exercise before the next day's sweat lodge. During this period of fasting, participants were left alone in the Arizona desert with a sleeping bag, although Ray had offered them Peruvian ponchos for an additional $250. Participants ate a buffet breakfast before entering the sweat lodge.

9. Please change the heading of the section 'Investigation and conviction on charges of negligent homicide' to 'Investigation and conviction' and make it a sub-topic of the section 'Sweat lodge deaths'

10. Please replace the current text of the section 'Investigation and conviction on charges of negligent homicide' with the following:

Following the deaths, Ray refused to speak to authorities and immediately left Arizona. According to participants in the heat endurance exercise, a note was left that said Ray was unavailable—as he was in "prayer and meditation". Ray later confirmed, during a 2013 interview with Piers Morgan, that he fled the scene rather than staying to assist with the aftermath, because "I was scared.".

Investigations were commenced by the Yavapai County Sheriff department. Initial investigations concerned construction of the "sweat lodge" structure which, according to investigators, was constructed by a local group under hire. Jack Judd, the county building safety manager, said that there was no record of a permit or an application for a permit to build the sweat lodge.

On October 15, 2009, the Yavapai County sheriff's office upgraded the level of the investigations to a 'homicide investigation'. Print media reported that Ray conducted a conference call with some victims, one of whom recorded the call and provided it to the AP. During this call, a self-described channeler claimed that they had communicated with the dead and said they "were having so much fun" out of their bodies that they didn't want to return. On October 27, Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar called for federal investigations to complement the local investigations. On October 30, a wrongful death lawsuit claiming negligence, fraud and other actions on the part of Ray and the site owners was filed for the family of Liz Neuman. A similar action was filed for Sidney Spencer who was seriously injured. The suits sought compensatory and punitive damages alleging that defendants failed to provide adequate prior warnings, to monitor the participants' well being in the sweat lodge, and to provide medical treatment. On November 10, Dennis Mehravar, an injured attendee from Canada, joined the Spenser suit.

Ray was arrested on February 3, 2010, and bond was set at $5 million. His attorney argued that he could not afford the $5 million and so he was released on February 26, 2010, after bail was reduced to $525,000. Three of the victims' lawsuits against Ray were settled before his criminal trial for a total of more than $3 million.

The court case began on May 1, 2011. The prosecution rested its case on June 3, 2011, after 34 witnesses had taken the stand and 43 days of testimony. On June 22, 2011, Ray was found guilty on three counts of negligent homicide, and not guilty of the manslaughter charges brought against him. On November 18, 2011, Ray was sentenced to two years in prison.

11. The sub-section on 'Native American perspective' is proposed to be replaced with the following:

Native American experts on sweat lodges have criticized the reported construction of the structure, as well as Ray's conduct of the event as not meeting traditional ways. As Indian Country Today reported, "Ray drew the ire of Indian country from the start as the ceremony he was selling bore little if any resemblance to an actual sweat lodge ceremony." On November 12, 2009, news reported Oglala Lakotas filed a lawsuit, Oglala Lakota Delegation of the Black Hills Sioux Nation Treaty Council v. United States against the United States, Arizona, Ray and site owners, to have Ray and the site owners arrested and punished under the Sioux Treaty of 1868 between the United States and the Lakota Nation. The lawsuit seeks to have the treaty enforced and does not seek monetary compensation. The lawsuit was eventually dismissed in October 2010, on the basis that the case was based on a good being offered, and the judge deciding that the sweat lodge was a service and not a good.

12. Please replace the section 'Re-launch of self-help business' with the following:

Ray was given a supervised release on July 12, 2013. Ray is not barred from conducting self-help seminars or sweat lodge ceremonies, AP noted. Kirby Brown's parents challenged motivational speakers and self-help gurus to sign a pledge of integrity, the "Seek Safely" promise. Ray has so far declined to do so.

On November 25, 2013, Ray re-launched his self-help business on CNN’s Piers Morgan Live. As of December 4, 2013, Piers Morgan’s manager, John Ferriter, was James Arthur Ray’s manager and media contact. In 2016, James starred in the CNN Films’ documentary “Enlighten Us: The Rise and Fall of James Arthur Ray,” a recount of Ray’s rise to fame in the self-help industry followed by his 2011 conviction of negligent homicide and later release from prison.

Explanation of issue:

1. In the entire page, in most of the places, his full name is mentioned, however as per WP:MoS, only the last name is to be mentioned in the body of the page.

2. I propose the removal of the first line of ‘convicted of felony negligent homicide’ because it is mentioned in detail in the third paragraph. I also propose to re-arrange text to remove redundancy.

3. The last line of ‘Childhood’ section is information not relevant to his page.

4. I propose adding the word 'allegedly' before pressurized and remove 'quasi-martial arts' before board-breaking exercise, because the reference said that it was alleged that Ray pressurized the woman and ‘quasi martial arts’ is an adjective not mentioned in the reference. I also propose to re-arrange the other text to fix grammar issues.

5. I propose removal of the entire paragraph - Participants of a James Ray "Spiritual Warrior" exercise in 2006, after signing waivers, were told to put the sharp point of an arrow used in archery against the soft part of their necks and lean against the tip. A man named Kurt sustained injuries during this exercise as the shaft snapped and the arrow point deeply penetrated his eyebrow, because ref #18 is a dead link and the claim can’t be verified.

6. I propose to remove the redundant text in the last paragraph of the section ‘Early safety concerns’

7. Under the section ‘Sweat lodge deaths’, I propose to trim it to remove the dead links, remove repetitive text and removed some names which do not appear in the references supplied.

8. Investigation and conviction is a part of the sweat lodge deaths and hence is proposed to be a sub-topic of the main section.

9. In the section ‘Investigation and conviction on charges of negligent homicide’, I propose to trim it to remove the dead links which can’t verify the claims, remove repetitive text and removed some names which do not appear in the references supplied.

10. In the sub-section ‘Native American perspective, I am proposing to remove content that is not relevant to the page of the subject.

11. I propose that the sub-section on ‘Post-release positioning’ be removed as the content is more or less similar to the subsequent section and hence can be merged.

12. I have merged the section ‘Post-release positioning’ and ‘Re-launch of self-help business’

References supporting change: All references are added in the text above. No additional references were added, only dead links and old references were removed.

ArmybaleS (talk) 21:34, 22 March 2019 (UTC)


 * ❌ Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place for business promotion. - CorbieV  ☊ ☼ 21:59, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Adding: also turned out to be a sock of (WP:UPE).  — Paleo  Neonate  – 23:14, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

See Also?
I think most of the "See also" items are more in the nature of "snark" than actual "here's where to go to learn more". I would just get rid of that section. Any objections?Brianyoumans (talk) 18:44, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There is nothing "snarky" about Ray's crimes. These links help illustrate the types of violations he has done, and continues to do, notably the exploitation of people and peoples' cultures. They also help readers understand the mindsets of others engaged in similar behaviour. They are fine as is. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 22:05, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Ideally links like pseudoscience would be unnecessary as they would be linked in the article itself (WP:PSCI and WP:OVERLINK). There's a relevant section but it'd need a few modifications to embed the link there and make sure it's supported by a reliable source.  Until then that particular link appears relevant, — Paleo  Neonate  – 23:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Adding: it's unclear what links exactly you had in mind, but I moved two to prose, pseudoscience and cultural appropriation; these may serve as examples to move others in the article prose if relevant. — Paleo  Neonate  – 05:07, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I think what you've done is an improvement.Brianyoumans (talk) 19:38, 18 August 2020 (UTC)