Talk:James Barry (surgeon)

Florence Nightingale quote
What pronouns did Nightingale actually use for Barry? Having both "She" and "He" be used in parenthesis makes it seem like the author simply swapped every use of one for the other, which is a strange choice. It probably would be preferable to simply quote her directly, perhaps with a (sic) after the first use of "he". 194.147.250.101 (talk) 10:25, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I think she was quoted directly; if you look at the sources, one states "Use of rounded parentheses in original." NekoKatsun (nyaa) 14:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we need an explanatory footnote (efn) to clarify that. Peaceray (talk) 14:47, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hey presto how's that? NekoKatsun (nyaa) 14:56, 21 July 2023 (UTC) Honestly great idea, by the by, thank you!

Gender identity discussion
, please discuss instead of edit warring. Valereee (talk) 12:46, 19 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I added a source to the gender and personal life section of James Barry's wiki page stating that many consider James to be a Trans man/transmasculine figure nowadays but it was taken down not long after. I'd be open to discussing it if necessary. Thatstoic (talk) 16:39, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * First, I note that there have been multiple discussions concerning Barry's gender identity. Editors engaging in this discussion should at least peruse what has already been written, which includes:
 * Here is the source that Thatstoic cited:
 * Note that the URL, https://www.sfu.ca/wwest/WWEST_blog/dr--james-barry-and-recognizing-trans-stories-in-the-history-of-.html, is part of a blog, https://www.sfu.ca/wwest/WWEST_blog. The English Wikipedia policy for using blogs is governed by WP:BLOGS, which states:
 * I could not find the author of the blog, Mily Mumford, in Wikidata. I could only find scant mention in Google Scholar. I do not think that Mumford can be considered an established subject-matter expert.
 * That said, I think that the article deserves a neutral, balanced, and duly weighted discussion of Barry's gender identity. It is clear that regardless of gender identity, British military & medical societies only permitted men to hold positions among their ranks. Barry certainly could not have been a British Army surgeon should Barry's gender status at birth had been known.
 * I think that there is an indication in the article that there were those in the army & in medicine who did know Barry's about this. The supposition that Barry desired to hide physical gender at death to protect those who knew & protected Barry is at least as plausible that Barry identified totally as a man.
 * I could not find the author of the blog, Mily Mumford, in Wikidata. I could only find scant mention in Google Scholar. I do not think that Mumford can be considered an established subject-matter expert.
 * That said, I think that the article deserves a neutral, balanced, and duly weighted discussion of Barry's gender identity. It is clear that regardless of gender identity, British military & medical societies only permitted men to hold positions among their ranks. Barry certainly could not have been a British Army surgeon should Barry's gender status at birth had been known.
 * I think that there is an indication in the article that there were those in the army & in medicine who did know Barry's about this. The supposition that Barry desired to hide physical gender at death to protect those who knew & protected Barry is at least as plausible that Barry identified totally as a man.
 * I think that there is an indication in the article that there were those in the army & in medicine who did know Barry's about this. The supposition that Barry desired to hide physical gender at death to protect those who knew & protected Barry is at least as plausible that Barry identified totally as a man.


 * Peaceray (talk) 17:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I'm not claiming that James was transgender, I'm merely including the fact that many people, whether they be historians or not, see him that way. The reason I included that article was because it included one such historian that believes that James was trans. I merely used that article because I was too lazy and thought that that would be enough to fix my previous error, but I suppose I should include articles made by the actual historian to hopefully put this issue to bed? Thatstoic (talk) 18:48, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think I have outlined the way forward. For a balanced, and duly weighted discussion, we need to provide both
 * the viewpoint that Barry was transgender
 * the viewpoint that Barry passed as a man so as to be a British Army surgeon, & subsequently may have wanted to be buried without physical examination so as to protect those who knew about Barry's gender but were silent.
 * Both viewpoints must be verified by citations from reliable sources.
 * Because this page has been fully protected, any proposed change must be discussed here on the talk page & editors much reach consensus on the solution before an administrator would implement the change.
 * It is my belief that this article should have some sort of protection after this is done, but whether it should be pending changes protected, semi-protected, or extended confirmed protected would be up to an administrator.
 * I would suggest we open this as a request for comment under a more meaningful title than 2 days full. Peaceray (talk) 20:57, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree that that would be a good step in the right direction, if you'd like to set that up. Thatstoic (talk) 21:09, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The lack of any mention of the word "transgender" in the article body seems a little odd to me. I updated this section title to "Gender identity discussion" to more accurately reflect the topic under discussion. – notwally (talk) 22:34, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's super weird to me that there's no mention of "transgender" in the article too. I'll see if I can track down any helpful sources in a few days here. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 22:40, 19 July 2024 (UTC) Also, nice to see you again, Notwally!
 * I believe I can be of service, I included that article because it listed one historian that believes that James was trans, but I can list some others if you'd like. Thatstoic (talk) 23:09, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I also agree it's weird that there's no mention of the theory that Barry was a (proto) trans man. Loki (talk) 23:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)