Talk:James Madison/Archive 2

Not enough on early life?
There is not enough info weaved into the text about where Madison was born (Port Conway, Virginia was provided in the right column table). There is little about family and early life. There should be more such biographical info early in this article.

J. Cheah —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.111.220.67 (talk) 06:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

I agree. I found a portrait of him when he was younger in case anyone decides to do it. http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/f0507s.jpg (he's so cute...!) (LadyCakeage (talk) 08:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC))

Madison's mother's name was simply Nelly Conway Madison. Irving Brant has extensive support for this in the early chapters of the first volume of his 6 volume biography. Eleanor Rose was an later affectation by biographers who didn't think Nelly was a dignified enough name for the mother of a President. The only possible source for Rose is the fact that one of her daughters married someone with the last name Rose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.254.155.62 (talk) 06:42, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

James Madison did not graduate from William and Mary, as indicated in the "other facts" section of the article
James Madison, unlike Jefferson and other elite Virginians, graduated from the College of New Jersey (which is today called Princeton University). At the time Princeton was a hotbed of the Scottish Enlightenment and Madison was exposed to ideas from Hutcheson, Hume, and Adam Smith that had a tremendous impact on his political thinking. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sshelby76 (talk • contribs) 14:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC). What about his language and his religion ?????? This is a Bad Article!@#$%^&* —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stawberrybanana65 (talk • contribs) 15:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Original Amendments proposed by Madison
I just wanted to write to mention while reading my Constitutional Law book it mentioned in the first Congress James Madison drafted 16 amendments for the Bill of Rights of which 12 where ratified by Congress and 10 by the States. In the article it says that Madison drafted only 12. The author does not give a cite but here is the cite to the book Chemerinsky, Erwin "Constitutional Law Second Edition" by Aspen Publishers New York New York pg. 446. Sorry about my cites not sure of the proper way to lay it out. Anyway I thought that this might spark some research from someone much more qualified than I.

Cheers

NGC —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 147.222.244.5 (talk) 03:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

Graduate of William and Mary
I do not believe that Madison was a graduate of William and Mary, as the article claims. I don't think he even attended it, although I am less sure of this. He was considering going to William and Mary, but was unhappy with the Anglican establishment, and went to Princeton instead, studying under John Witherspoon. See "Chronology of James Madison, 1751-1783," Madison's Works, Vol. 1 (G.P. Putnam's Sons: New York, 1900), xxxvii. Nmille01

i did not know he was a president

209.244.187.140 00:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

GA fail
I am failing this article for several reasons:
 * The article is not well-sourced. There are many statements that still require citation and these, as well as the citations currently in the article, should come from scholarly research on Madison. There is much available.
 * The article does not meet the "broad coverage" criteria. Large sections of Madison's early life are missing. Since this is a biography page, we need to know about his birth, childhood and education as well as his accomplishments in later life.
 * The article needs to be structured better. The sections on the Constitution, for example, are small and vague compared to the section on his Presidency. This gives an undue weight to his Presidency. I would suggest a thorough rethinking of the structure - what is going to be a section, subsection, etc. and what needs to be covered in each. More research would probably aid the editors in these decisions. Awadewit Talk 08:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Slavery, anyone?
Is it possible to call this biography complete without any mention whatsoever that Master Madison was an owner of a stable enslaved African population? He owned on average 100 black human beings who tended to his plantation and household while the Father of the Constitution busied himself with advancing the rights of white propertied folk. While he "thought" about freeing his slaves, like the rest of his contemporaries, great ideas so rarely translated into great deeds. Fact is, this man depended on slave labor for his existence and prosperity. Even the home sight for Montpelier mentions these crucial facts (http://www.montpelier.org/history/enslaved_community.cfm), so why not Wikipedia? Perhaps a deliberate case of "White" washing American history yet again? Shame. (122.26.128.126 05:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC))
 * Do you have material that you would like to provide? Be bold. ComplexEndeavors 17:23, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm completely able to believe that Madison owned slaves, but it was kind of the norm back then for the rich white property owners, so I don't think it's of any importance to his individual biography. I'm also fairly sure it was Thomas Jefferson who made a big deal out of slavery being wrong but continued to own slaves his entire life, so his article might be the better place to put this information. (by the way, where exactly does it say he was the father of the constitution? I've never heard that before...)

For more on Madison and the slavery issue read http://www.jamesmadisonmus.org/textpages/clark.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.254.155.62 (talk) 06:45, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I think someone should add some information from the link above. It describes some reasons why he did not outright free his slaves. At least a small section about how he added to the anti-slavery article should be in here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.149.50.184 (talk) 19:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Religion??
Under Deism, Madison is listed as a Deist yet under  this article he is listed an Episcopalian. What gives? I know he was well known for his Deist beliefs. Imagine1984 18:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)imagine1984

You are quite correct. It is VERY WELL ESTABLISHED that Madison was somewhat, if not predominantly, Deist in thinking. If we are to represent his religious thoughts accurately, that categorization will be added to his biographical info. 75.70.99.101 (talk) 03:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Umm, he shouldn't be categorized as anything specifically, as is how they've generally done it with all prominent people who didn't leave enough information on wikipedia. And Madison is often considered to have been a straight-up atheist privately by historians - but that's kind of the point, that it's still very unknown, though he clearly rejected standard theism.  I'd be inclined to consider him a deist (which, btw, should not be capitalized) but it is not a religion, nor does it say anything about other beliefs that would encompass a religion.  98.168.192.162 (talk) 13:48, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, the word could just be changed to "religious belief(s)" - rather than simply "religion" as it stands - or something similar, and for that, I think "deism" could be used since it's seemingly the most accepted stance he had (or am I wrong)? `98.168.192.162 (talk) 09:14, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The word's from the template (which is outside this topic). Tedickey (talk) 14:12, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I read somewhere that he was an Episcopalian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oreocookey (talk • contribs) 14:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Redirect
Just so everyone knows, Madison does not redirect here, despite what it says at the top of the article. 138.69.160.1 21:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I have removed that template, thanks. —Krellis (Talk) 21:55, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Dubious
Someone needs to rewrite the War of 1812 heading - "British insults" "hostile indians" "american's didn't really want canada" - come on, lets see some neutral and TRUTHFUL info. Sure the British were impressing "American" subjects into the Royal Navy and the NATIVE AMERICANS were at times hostile but the Americans weren't saints. To be honest the War of 1812 was one of the biggest disasters America has faced - their invasion of Canada bloodily repulsed, Native Americans supported by the British and Canadians, A British Army torching Washington DC (in retaliation for the torching of York during the winter season) and ending up marching at will around central america doing what they wanted until a peace treaty was signed. American prestige was only "restored" after a meaningless battle in New Orelans AFTER THE WAR ENDED. Regardless of what people say, this war did not prove Young America could hold their own against the old world, it showed they bit off more than they could chew in attempting to subjugate and forcibly liberate Canada against the populace's will. Don't forget half the canadian population were loyalists during the American revolution and Britain was fighting the might of Napoleon in Europe, so the War of 1812 was something of a sideline campaign. I may have rattled on a bit here butI think it just goes to show that that section needs rewriting to seem something other than some super-american-patriotic propaganda machine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.246.144 (talk) 22:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * "Meanwhile, British naval officials tried to recover their losses of sailors by capturing Americans. From 1803 to 1811 the British navy illegally impressed some six thousand American sailors," from Steven M. Gillon and Cathy D. Matson, The American Experiment: A History of the United States Vol. 1, 2nd ed. Page 314.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.6.83.252 (talk) 17:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

eh, i think they're teaching a decidedly different slant on the War of 1812 in Canada especially... whether its true or not i have no idea, but on the recent Olympics chat forums there were many Canadiens under the impression that it was their own troops and not the British that burned Washington D.C. - i guess they weren't a country at that time but happy to take credit for the winning battles anyway...seems like every country slants history to its own advantage so i begin to question what i've been taught here in the U.S. also....notably there seem to be a lot of Mexican nationals who are absolutely convinced that the U.S. was the sole instigator in the U.S. - Mexican War...--72.57.193.222 (talk) 04:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

More on Madison's Notes
While Madison's vital role in the Convention is addressed, I feel not enough attention is given to his role as the primary (although unofficial) note-taker of the Convention. It is mentioned later on, in the section disscussing his later life, but never brought up in the "Father of the Constitution" section, when his roles as a speaker and in developing the Virginia Plan are mentioned. I feel it deserves mentioning, since Madison's notes are the only way we, looking back, have any idea what occurred during the convention (aside from the final result). As they are our only link to the events of the Convention, extremely thorough, and for the most part unbiased, I believe they deserve much more recognition than they are currently given in this article.

KJHalls11 (talk) 04:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Madison and Rothschilds
Bullshit that he "recognized the need" for a national bank, strong (oppressive) central gov., and standing army after 1812. He was whipped by the Rothschilds so he agreed with them: like a critic beat by Uwe Bowl. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.250.96.53 (talk) 05:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Not Helping
im writing a research paper on james madison and i need mor info. christian schools require alot and a 13 yr old like myself will not be able to write a 2 page essay from this no offense to who wrote this but i need more please

Hi 13 yr old - why don't you look up the meaning of "research" - and BTW, "a lot" is sloppy but still remains two words.

An Article about James Madison
For other persons named James Madison, see James Madison (disambiguation). James Madison

4th President of the United States In office March 4, 1809 – March 4, 1817 Vice President	George Clinton (1809–1812), None (1812–1813), Elbridge Gerry (1813–1814) None (1814–1817) Preceded by	Thomas Jefferson Succeeded by	James Monroe 5th United States Secretary of State In office May 2, 1801 – March 3, 1809 President	Thomas Jefferson Preceded by	John Marshall Succeeded by	Robert Smith Member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Virginia's 5th district In office March 4, 1789 – March 3, 1793 Preceded by	New district; first Congress Succeeded by	George Hancock Member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Virginia's 15th district In office March 4, 1793 – March 3, 1797 Preceded by	New district Succeeded by	John Dawson Born	March 16, 1751 Port Conway, Virginia Died	June 28, 1836 (aged 85) Montpelier, Virginia Nationality	American Political party	Democratic-Republican Spouse	Dolley Todd Madison Children	John Payne Todd (stepson) Alma mater	Princeton University Occupation	Lawyer Religion	Episcopal Signature James Madison, Jr.[1] (March 16, 1751 – June 28, 1836) was an American politician, the fourth President of the United States (1809–1817), and one of the Founding Fathers of the United States. Considered to be the "Father of the Constitution", he was the principal author of the document. In 1788, he wrote over a third of the Federalist Papers, still the most influential commentary on the Constitution. The first President to have served in the United States Congress, he was a leader in the 1st United States Congress, drafted many basic laws and was responsible for the first ten amendments to the Constitution (said to be based on the Virginia Declaration of Rights), and thus is also known as the "Father of the Bill of Rights".[2] As a political theorist, Madison's most distinctive belief was that the new republic needed checks and balances to limit the powers of special interests, which Madison called factions.[3] He believed very strongly that the new nation should fight against aristocracy and corruption and was deeply committed to creating mechanisms that would ensure republicanism in the United States.[4] As leader in the House of Representatives, Madison worked closely with President George Washington to organize the new federal government. Breaking with Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton in 1791, Madison and Thomas Jefferson organized what they called the Republican Party (later called the Democratic–Republican Party)[5] in opposition to key policies of the Federalists, especially the national bank and the Jay Treaty. He secretly co-authored, along with Thomas Jefferson, the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions in 1798 to protest the Alien and Sedition Acts. As Jefferson's Secretary of State (1801–1809), Madison supervised the Louisiana Purchase, doubling the nation's size, and sponsored the ill-fated Embargo Act of 1807. As president, he led the nation into the War of 1812 against Great Britain in order to protect the United States' economic rights. That conflict began poorly as Americans suffered defeat after defeat by smaller forces, but ended on a high note in 1815, with the Treaty of Ghent, after which a new Era of Good Feelings swept the country. During and after the war, Madison reversed many of his positions. By 1815, he supported the creation of the second National Bank, a strong military, and a high tariff to protect the new factories opened during the war.

An Article about James Madison
For other persons named James Madison, see James Madison (disambiguation). James Madison

4th President of the United States In office March 4, 1809 – March 4, 1817 Vice President	George Clinton (1809–1812), None (1812–1813), Elbridge Gerry (1813–1814) None (1814–1817) Preceded by	Thomas Jefferson Succeeded by	James Monroe 5th United States Secretary of State In office May 2, 1801 – March 3, 1809 President	Thomas Jefferson Preceded by	John Marshall Succeeded by	Robert Smith Member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Virginia's 5th district In office March 4, 1789 – March 3, 1793 Preceded by	New district; first Congress Succeeded by	George Hancock Member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Virginia's 15th district In office March 4, 1793 – March 3, 1797 Preceded by	New district Succeeded by	John Dawson Born	March 16, 1751 Port Conway, Virginia Died	June 28, 1836 (aged 85) Montpelier, Virginia Nationality	American Political party	Democratic-Republican Spouse	Dolley Todd Madison Children	John Payne Todd (stepson) Alma mater	Princeton University Occupation	Lawyer Religion	Episcopal Signature James Madison, Jr.[1] (March 16, 1751 – June 28, 1836) was an American politician, the fourth President of the United States (1809–1817), and one of the Founding Fathers of the United States. Considered to be the "Father of the Constitution", he was the principal author of the document. In 1788, he wrote over a third of the Federalist Papers, still the most influential commentary on the Constitution. The first President to have served in the United States Congress, he was a leader in the 1st United States Congress, drafted many basic laws and was responsible for the first ten amendments to the Constitution (said to be based on the Virginia Declaration of Rights), and thus is also known as the "Father of the Bill of Rights".[2] As a political theorist, Madison's most distinctive belief was that the new republic needed checks and balances to limit the powers of special interests, which Madison called factions.[3] He believed very strongly that the new nation should fight against aristocracy and corruption and was deeply committed to creating mechanisms that would ensure republicanism in the United States.[4] As leader in the House of Representatives, Madison worked closely with President George Washington to organize the new federal government. Breaking with Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton in 1791, Madison and Thomas Jefferson organized what they called the Republican Party (later called the Democratic–Republican Party)[5] in opposition to key policies of the Federalists, especially the national bank and the Jay Treaty. He secretly co-authored, along with Thomas Jefferson, the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions in 1798 to protest the Alien and Sedition Acts. As Jefferson's Secretary of State (1801–1809), Madison supervised the Louisiana Purchase, doubling the nation's size, and sponsored the ill-fated Embargo Act of 1807. As president, he led the nation into the War of 1812 against Great Britain in order to protect the United States' economic rights. That conflict began poorly as Americans suffered defeat after defeat by smaller forces, but ended on a high note in 1815, with the Treaty of Ghent, after which a new Era of Good Feelings swept the country. During and after the war, Madison reversed many of his positions. By 1815, he supported the creation of the second National Bank, a strong military, and a high tariff to protect the new factories opened during the war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.83.217.167 (talk) 22:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

After Being Taken Over By An English Fleet, It's Proprietor Was The Duke Of York. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.33.30.126 (talk) 03:14, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

American Defeats in the War of 1812
In the third paragraph of the introduction it says that "That conflict began poorly as Americans suffered defeat after defeat by smaller forces" in relation to the war of 1812

I was under the impression that in fact in a battle between american and english navies on anything approcahing even numbers the americans won, but in almost all battles between american and british navies the british ships far outnumbered the american ships —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.229.255.108 (talk) 07:20, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Nice job this entry has a lot of information and is very usefull Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.229.255.108 (talk) 07:27, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * In answer to your query, the text is referring to land battles, since the War of 1812 was marked not just by naval engagements but also by invasions and counter-invasions along the US-Canadian border. Whilst your comments about the size of naval battles is correct, during the first part of the war American land forces outnumbered British land forces by a significant number, but the US did indeed suffer many defeats even considering. HonouraryMix (talk) 23:24, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Height?
I see nothing mentioned here, but I have read that he was short; possibly the shortest President. Does anyone have any information on his actual height? Also supposedly, Dolley called him her "little Jemmy." Awww. 134.4.61.136 (talk) 22:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Refs for name?
There is a ref associated with the first appearance of Madison's name in the article - or I should say THREE refs in one. While all might be wonderful articles in themselves, they are really just more "External links". Perhaps some of them could actually be used to source info for the article. Presently they do not appear to do so, and the reader is given no particular reason to follow the link. They seem entirely out of place --JimWae (talk) 02:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It would appear that the sole purpose of these refs is to show three sources that give his name as "James Madison, Jr." I don't have the patience to track down when the refs first appeared in the article. - dcljr (talk) 05:11, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Where to Research
If I remember correctly there is an. archives section at the library of congress. Where they kept full biographical information on the men who signed the constitution. Also here in Texas our school system kept books on about different political leaders of the United States that told their life story.--C. A. Levingston 02:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Caleving (talk • contribs)

Old Style Date
I have noticed in this article that the Old Style date is listed as March 5, 1751. In actuality a calendar on the wall on the day James Madison was born would show March 5, 1750 (reference Irving Brant's biography of James Madison, page 5 in my version) since at the time the Julian Calendar was still in use and New Year's days was on March 25. The Old Style date is used correctly in Wikipedia for George Washington, stating that he was born in 1731 (and not 1732 as his adjusted birthday is accepted based on the currently used Gregorian calendar with a January 1 New Year's Day). In my opinion the Old Style date should be edited to 1750, perhaps with an explanatory note. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.51.251 (talk) 02:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Madison inspired WikiLeaks
His sentence "Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives." inspired WikiLeaks : http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/static/html/faq.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.179.141 (talk) 00:31, 2 December 2010 (UTC)