Talk:James Vann

James Vann
What is the problem with the family information I have provided about James Vann? I am not making this stuff up, since it was compiled from the Moravian missionary Journals kept by close contemporary eyewitnesses of Vann's activities and family and not oral traditions or secondary sources (Oconostota (talk) 13:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.114 (talk) 17:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Please go have a look at WP:Reliable to determine whether the journals qualify as a reliable source. (I frankly am not sufficiently well-versed in Wikipedia practices to opine.)  Then, if you are doing more than citing directly to these journals - that is, if you are providing your own synthesis or interpretation of them - also check WP:OR, which explains that Wikipedia articles must be founded on reliable, verifiable sources and not on original research.  Finally, it may be a good idea to tie your edits directly to the sources you're citing, to make it clearer to other editors that your work is all supported by the sources.  I am sure that other editors can offer much more thorough, and better, advice than this - which is pretty sketchy to be honest - but this will get you started.  If your edits are in fact supported by reliable and verifiable sources, then as a general matter they should remain in the article.  And if they conflict with other reliable, verifiable sources - well, cross that bridge when we get to it.  JohnInDC (talk) 18:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have learned that I am a descendant of Chief James Vann. Thank you for this information. 66.25.249.179 (talk) 19:23, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback. For a while, I seemed to be confronting a black hole. From 1801 to 1834, the Moravian missionaries maintained daily journal entries (written in German) concerning that day's events and visitors to Spring Place, including a teenaged Samuel Houston, the widow of Gen. Nathaniel Green, and President James Madison. But they were especially aware of and concerned with the sometimes irratic personality of their patron James Vann and his moody mother (either "Mrs. Vann", "Mother Vann," or "Old Lady Vann" depending on her attitude toward the Moravians), and his stepfather (who told the missionaries that he was childless), siblings, wives, children, slaves (subject of an upcomming book by Tiya Miles about Cherokee ownership of African-Americans), employees, and customers. A missionary once removed an insect that got in Vann's ear that made him frantic. Another time a missionary found Vann lying senseless on a path. When admonished for being drunk, Vann replied "Thank God, I thought I had been shot!" There is an account of Vann torturing a teenaged white girl (hung by her thumbs; no waterboarding here!), who was suspected of theft of Vann's money but rescued by the missionies. There are not many pages in the Journals that fail to mention Vann or his relatives. Most of the journals document their relationship with James Vann until his death in 1809; afterwards their principal patron and convert was Chief Charles R. Hicks. Also they were involved with Vann's widow Margaret or Peggy Scott, who was their neighbor and first convert. Peggy's swecond husband was Joseph Crutchfield, a white man and first cousin of James Vann. Several of Vann's white relatives were employed by Vann or visited Spring Place. Also frequently mentioned in the Diaries was Major Ridge whose son John Ridge and nephews Elias Boudinot and Stand Watie were Spring Place pupils. By the way, several of my Cherokee ancestors visited Spring Place and are mentioned in the Journals, including Sally Scott who was a sister of three of Vann's wives, and her son Collins McDonald who attended the school (he was a first cousin of Chief John Ross). Hence my interest in these documents. For your information, I also assisted the editors of similar compilation of Diaries of the later and rival Presbyterian missionary school (began 1818) known as the Brainerd school located on Chickamauga Creek south of the site of Chattanooga,TN. I cannot concieve of a more usefull, neutral, accurate, contemporary, and authoritative source than the eyewitness records written by Rosina Gambold and the other Moravian missionaries. In addition, there is a list of Spring Place students, with the name of pupil, names of his or her parents, residence, whether Indian or white, and dates of enrollment or departure (and sometimes reason for the departure). Most of Vann's children attended the Spring Place school and are listed. I transcribed this list from a microfilm of Moravian records in the Library of Congress and furnished it to the translator, Dr. McClinton (I am cited in her book). I also prepared for her a annotated index of everyone (both Cherokee and white) mentioned in the Jounals. No wonder I am frustrated at the Wikipedia rejection of this newly available information about a very colorful and important Cherokee leader (Oconostota (talk) 13:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.161 (talk) 19:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It sounds like a fascinating story. But be that as it may!  Wikipedia is, for better or for worse, founded on the notions of verifiability and reliability rather than personal knowledge, original research or anecdote - which means in this context that you need to look at those pages that I've linked and see how, or if, you can make those journals fit into the Wikipedia paradigm.  Have any academics translated or reviewed, summarized or encapsulated the journals?  If the journals themselves are not reliable then perhaps someone else's efforts to sort through them are.  (PS - don't forget to sign your comments here by typing four tildes '~' in a row!  And truly, consider registering your own account!)  JohnInDC (talk) 19:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The journals are "primary sources" in Wikipedia, and great care must be taken in using them as source material. Have a look here:  PRIMARY.  JohnInDC (talk) 20:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Aha. Translated into English and published in two volumes the University of Nebraska press.  This blurb is very helpful.  http://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/catalog/productinfo.aspx?id=671923&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1.  This one too - http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+Moravian+Springplace+Mission+to+the+Cherokees.+Volume+1:...-a0194278485.  Please, look into how this material can be appropriately used.  My (inexperienced) take on it is that you could properly use the journals as sources for simple, descriptive facts about James Vann at least.  JohnInDC (talk) 20:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The Moravian Journals have been peer reviewed widely as an essential primary source on Cherokee affairs during the period of the mission's existence. All of the episodes I described above can be footnoted volume and page (except for the story of the torture of the girl, which is among records of the National Archives in Washington,DC. I work in the National Archives and perhaps we could meet sometime after work hours and discuss this matter in person.  Once this matter is resolved, I plan to submit to Wikipedia an eyewitness account of the murder of Chief Doublehead, the story of the explosion and sinking of Rich Joe Vann's steamboat on the Ohio River, a gang of thieves that harrassed Cherokees in Georgia called the "Pony Club", the  assassination of Chief Jack Walker in 1834 by my collateral ancestor James Foreman, and other interesting Cherokee history (Oconostota (talk) 13:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.161 (talk) 21:32, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I would suggest linking to one or two of the peer reviews here, to lay to rest any lingering concern that these new, primary sources are unreliable. From there I would further suggest that you begin with some conservative changes, focusing on basic and simple facts.  That way if any other editors have concerns with your work, they can raise them and the matter can be hashed out without having to tackle a whole lot of material.  As you grow more experienced in Wikipedia you will get a sense for the sorts of edits that are likely to raise concerns and will be able to edit a bit more freely.
 * Bear in mind throughout this that no one owns any article in Wikipedia - we're all editors, all with the same authority, so long as our edits fit within the policies of Wikipedia. So the way to "resolve" this is to make edits consistent with Wikipedia policies and to work out any disagreements with other editors here on the Talk page.
 * Are these eyewitness accounts in the Moravian journals as well? JohnInDC (talk) 00:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, sounds like this editor has some awesome contributions to make. BTW, to the editor, I don't mean to badger on this point, but you really should consider getting a Wikipedia account for your own uses. Editing logged out, especially in your case as you seem to change IP addresses frequently, makes it harder for someone to get ahold of you. Plus it stops people like me from bugging you about getting one. :-) &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 01:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you (who ever you are) that fixed the James Vann page in my favor. If I can figure how to do it, I will set up an account with Wikipedia. Cherokee history is extremely rich and full of interesting persons and events. The Cherokees are, by far, the best documented American Indian people (I hate the politically correct term "Native American"). I have decades of researching and collecting the history and genealogy of Cherokees. One of my ancestors was a white trader named Will Shorey, who served as interpreter to a delegation of Cherokee chiefs who visited London in 1763 (There is a picture of the three chiefs and interpreter Shorey). How do you add pictures, maps, charts, etc. to a Wikipedia article? (Oconostota (talk) 13:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.188.70 (talk) 12:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The editor who revised the page is the same one who removed your earlier changes. (You can see a list of all changes, and who made them, by clicking the 'history' tab at the top of the page when the article is showing.)  Presumably this editor has been persuaded by the discussion here on the Talk page.  It's quite unusual for someone who is so active on an article to remain entirely mute on the Talk page - it certainly makes it harder for other editors to figure out what he is doing - but so long as the text is being worked to everyone's satisfaction it's not a huge problem.  Again of course *you* should feel free to edit the article as well.  As for pictures, maps etc. - they need to be uploaded as a separate Wikipedia file, then linked via commands in the article.  Broadly, pictures need to be public domain or released under terms of a very broad license that permits their unlimited reproduction (inasmuch as Wikipedia is intended to be copied and mirrored freely).  Pictures from the book probably wouldn't qualify; pictures from the Archives would (I would think).  If you click on the 'help' button over on the left, you can probably burrow your way to the right place to learn more.  JohnInDC (talk) 12:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

James Vann and the Cherokee clan system
James Vann grew up and lived in the household of his father, John, Clement, or Joseph Vann, a Scots-Irish trader who lived among but apart from the Cherokee who surrounded him. Thoroughly acculturated, he never had anything to do with the Cherokee clan system and was indeed one of the chief instigators of its destruction. The one and only reason to mention the clan system is not because it is in any way relevant to James Vann but because one is attempting to push an idea that really is not valid. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * On page 3 of the Cherokee Observer, the part about the Cherokee matrilineal clan system refers to women's suffrage and has nothing to do with property. Also, the reference listed has information for no later than 1785, with nothing about the time when James Vann was the wealthiest man not only in the Cherokee Nation but the entire continent east of the Mississippi.  Finally, the article is about James Vann, not the Cherokee clan system, so unless you can provide sources which directly related to James Vann himself, random facts about the Cherokee clans are inappropriate and out of place.  There is, however, somewhere were such information not only belongs but is probably needed: Cherokee clans.  If you can provide source material that James Vann shared his lands and wealth with members of the Wild Potato Clan or that accounts of hius will and its execution are the fantasies of historians of the time as well as forgeries placed into the records of the Cherokee Nation and of the United States, I would be surprised.  Vann, not his wife, not the clan, Vann and Vann alone controlled and bequeathed his property. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 19:40, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I tried to clean up some of the refs (as in identifying what article in the newspaper was being referenced), moved the inheritance info to the "Legacy" section where the will was already discussed, and explained what the Act of Oblivion did. I question if "geni.com" qualifies as a reliable source, but I'll leave that to another editor to decide; however, I did remove a conclusion not found in that genealogy forum page that was cited, since that falls under No original research. -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:03, 14 December 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * Okay, sounds good. I've got better references but all my books are in Paris, France.  I'm in Chattanooga, Tennessee.  The best treatment of it is in Cherokee Renaessance in the New Republic.  Vann and his protoges, Charles Hicks and Major Ridge, were at the forefront of the "young chiefs" who wanted to adopt more of the white man's ways as a defence against encroachment by whites from the United States.  The three were often referred to then, and now by historians, as the Cherokee Triumvirate.  I'll see if they have that book at the library in the meantime so I can add citations. There's a reference to the Act of Oblivion in Mooney, too.  That article in the Cherokee Observer referred to an act by the National Committee enacting the same provisions; the actual Act of Oblivion was the confirmation of the 1808 law.  I noticed too that even though those who signed did so in the name of the Seven Clans, they were all men. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 22:48, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Geni.com, like Find-a-Grave and IMDB, is a reader-contributor site, which are not considered Reliable Sources by Wikipedia. If a secondary source is cited in an entry on Geni.com, it could be used as an RS.Parkwells (talk) 18:28, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone really knows who James Vann's father is. Probably Vann himself wasn't completely sure.  I've seen enough geneaological alleged information that has turned out to be fantasy or outright falsehood to take online references too seriously.  Even from seemingly reliable sources, such as Emmet Starr.  Such sites are a major source of all the "Moytoy dynasty" misinformation. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 19:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You should've seen this article when I first started working on it a couple of years ago. It was pretty bad. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 22:33, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I can imagine - you've made many valuable contributions to so many of the Cherokee articles. It would really help people like me, who do want to learn, if you would include inline cites with source info and page numbers (where appropriate), so we wouldn't have to hunt all over for the information in the books and other materials you reference. I often like to follow up with sources to learn more for myself, but appreciate the help of having cites to follow. Also, your cites would indicate which sources you found most valuable for different kinds of information, or about different people.  But, thanks for your work.Parkwells (talk) 22:53, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you too. I'll keep all that stuff in mind.  Sometimes when I don't include a citation it's because the incident or information is in so many sources it seems to me to be beyond question, like the Catlett's Station massacre, so I just assume people know about it already. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 01:59, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Genealogy Trails not RS
Genealogy Trails appears to be a volunteer site, not suitable as RS. It looks as if much of the information came verbatim from the North Georgia and other sites.Parkwells (talk) 20:14, 18 December 2011 (UTC)