Talk:Jamestown, Virginia/Archive 1

Jamestown:open for every one to edit?
i think we should lock this page to anyonmys users. Firl21 (talk) 13:07, 1 September 2009 (UTC)firl21

Jamestown: Past tense?
I'm not confused. This article talks about Jamestown only in the past tense. Although this may be what most people are interested in, isn't Jamestown, VA still a contemporary town that one can visit? Also, what is the price
 * Jamestown is in the past-tense, unless one counts the state and federal parks that tourists visit. In the seventeenth century, Jamestown eventually came to become part of James City (usually spelled Cittie) in 1619.  When Virginia was divided into counties in 1634, the area surrounding Jamestown and much of the former James Cittie became known as James City County. However, the actual town was eventually abandoned for various reasons (swampy geography, Bacon's fiery 'redecoration') and the county seat and capital of the colony was moved to became Middle Plantation/Williamsburg in 1699, and it reverted to farmland, even that no longer occupied by residents since the early 20th century. So, no James City or Jamestown, exists as a contemporary municipality, although the county still bears the name "James City County." Vaoverland


 * But isn't this supposed to be the earliest continually inhabited English town? So something must still be there. Even so, it would be nice to see a contemporary pic of what remins... Fig 12:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No, It was the earliest so-called permanent (or successful) English settlement in North America, but I believe that there is no claim that Jamestown has been continuously occupied. the reality is that even the natives didn't want to occupy it when it was chosen by the settlers in 1607, and for logical reasons: environmental (see article for details). Perhaps it's a nice place to visit these days, but you still probably wouldn't want to live there, and no one does. However, about 25 miles east, the claim for oldest continuously occupied by English-speaking folks falls to Kecoughtan, Virginia, now in the City of Hampton, seized from the Native Americans by English under Sir Thomas Gates in 1610. Vaoverland 17:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This is old so not sure it will mean anything, but Historic Jamestowne (meaning the Island of course) does have someone living on it. It is not advertised, though some people do tell visitors, etc., who currently lives on the island.  Just an FYI.Sarah1607 (talk) 00:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it is the oldest permanent English settlement in (the United States of) America, not NORTH America.

St. John's, Canada has been continuously inhabited since 1605; 2 years before Jamestown. --There's no need to fix the article, since it says "the United States", and not "North America".--

Pine 18:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

What happened in the 1700s?
We skip from the colonial era to the 19th century. Am I to believe that nothing happened for 100 years? MPS 14:14, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The site was pretty much abandoned during that period. A similar abandonment happened at Williamsburg after the capitol was moved to Richmond.Shsilver 19:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

dirt?
"Newport sailed back for London on the Susan Constant with a load of pyrite and dirt." - Is that vandalism? Why would they bring back dirt? To prove they were there? (clem 19:42, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC))


 * I don't think that is vandalism. Pyrite is of course, also known as "Fool's Gold". In addition to seeking riches, there was a lot of scientific interest back in England at the time, so the dirt also makes logical sense. Vaoverland


 * I recently learned that some of the dirt was discovered back in England contained an ore which was used to make iron. The colonists soon set about making iron, according to several websites about iron furnaces in Virginia. Vaoverland 19:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * They brought back unsifted earth, which contained what they hoped to be gold ore but turned out to be pyrite. In the very early going, though they were convinced that gold would be found, they didn't bring equipment for any meaningful mining. Instead, they just loaded the dirt onto the ships and sent it to London to be tested.Blackehart 19:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Resource
Somebody just added this link:. It looks like the gutenberg book has a lot of information that would be very useful to incorporate as well as images. Just posting for my reference and anybody else who's interested in using this.--Bkwillwm 20:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)IF

Stanley Plot?
Can anyone help with the following, noted in William Stanley (Elizabethan)?
 * James Stanley, was an associate of the Earl of Arundel in the 17th century, as they plotted to overthrow the Jamestown Colony.--shtove 19:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

First Marijuana Law
I have not verified this statement from
 * Marijuana America's first marijuana law was enacted at Jamestown Colony, Virginia in 1619. It was a law "ordering" all farmers to grow Indian hempseed. marijuanna marijuanna weed smoker. Alchohol is really bad. Eav 20:31, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

It's in the New York Times from Eric Schlosser...

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/01/weekinreview/01SCHL.html

67.188.189.163 (talk) 18:01, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Making glass immedietely?
IIRC it was Polish and German colonists brought by John Smith in 1608 which started to make glass, and not that colonists started it making immedietely... Szopen 12:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Julian or Gregorian Dates?
Is the founding date '14th May 1607' reckoned by the Julian or Gregorian calendar? Those who set sail from London would have been using the Julian system because although the Gregorian calendar was imposed on many Catholic countries by Papal Bull in 1582, England (and its colonies in the eastern United States) did not adopt it until 1752.

Is the date as we refer to it today taken from the settlers' original documents? If so, wouldn't it have been reckoned by the Julian system? And does this mean the 'modern' date of founding is actually around the 25th May 1607?

(I now hesitate to post this, because further reading about the Julian/Gregorian differences at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar and the additional complications noted at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Style_and_New_Style_dates has shown me that this is a very confusing area! But I'll take the plunge as a 'newbie' contributor here and see what the panel thinks ...) Elidorius 08:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The important thing to remember with Julian dates is that, under the Julian calendar as used by England during the Colonial period, the new year began on March 25. For dealing with the awkward period from January 1 to March 24, mixed-year date formats are generally used, which combines Old Style (O.S.) and New Style (N.S.) syntax. For example, the date for the Powahatan attack on Jamestown is best represented as March 22, 1621/22. (Note that this was a Friday, but not Good Friday. The nearest Good Friday was almost a month later, on April 19, 1622.)  The shift in days is only relevant for computing equivalent Gregorian calendar dates to compare sequences of events with dates from countries where the Gregorian calendar was in use, or in calculating intervals which span the transition from Julian to Gregorian. For citing dates, always use the given month and day. Don't try to shift it. The founding of Jamestown, May 14th, 1607 falls after New Years, so represent the date as-is. --Glen Mark Martin (talk) 01:49, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

as far as i know james town in textbooks are refrenced by the gegorian calender and it is used in american litriture as being on the gegorian calender. weather its wrong or not american documents and papers are now based on gegorian system and the ulian date is used. its one argument i know is wrong but just leave it as is Firl21 (talk) 14:45, 1 September 2009 (UTC)firl21

Property Rights & Starvation
The Jamestown colony finally prospered after the British government sent Sir Thomas Dale to serve as the high marshall in 1611. The dramatic change imposed by Dale in 1614 was to eliminate the communal property system where the fruits of each individual's labor were either sent back to England or used to provide for the colony as a whole.

Dale gave each man in the colony three acres of land, required that each man work only a month to contribute to the colony treasury (and not during harvest or planting time), and imposed an anual tax of two and a half barrels of corn.

Private property, replacing communal property, yeilded greater output and turned the fortunes of the colony around. Before, where the colonists had emplored the native americans to sell them corn and had been looked down on by the native americans for their inability to grow corn, the native americans began to trade furs and other goods for the corn produced by the colonists.

This is breifly touched on the growth and development section of your article, but it fails to specifically mention the institution of private property as the act that saved the colony.

In 1618 the headright system was established, expanding upon Dale's ideas. Any colonist that paid his own way was granted 50 acres of land and another 50 acres of land for anyone else whose transportation he paid.

Source: Thomas J. DiLorenzo, How Capitalism Saved America Three Rivers Press, New York, 2004. Pages 53-57.

Vandalism
This page seems to have unusually high levels of vandalism - does anyone have any idea why? njan 21:53, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

400th anniversary?

Vandals work in mysterious ways. -- Shrieking Harpy. . . . . .      . . . . . .      TalkundefinedCount 19:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

anyoned school kids. soryy but thats why i think we should semi lock this page Firl21 (talk) 14:47, 1 September 2009 (UTC)firl21

Indian relations
Some information about early Indian relations would be informative. For example, the First Anglo–Powhatan War and Second Anglo–Powhatan War seem quite important. -- Beland 07:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC) Bold text

Vandalism
Don't worry, the vandalism should stop soon. The reason there were vandals was because there is a DAR competition based on Jamestown, but it's almost over now. I'm guessing since Wikipedia is popular website, people vandalize the Jamestown page so other people in the competition might give false info.

please sign your posts thank you also what is a dar competition Firl21 (talk) 14:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)firl21

Revising the lead section
I am going to make a try at condensing the lead section, which is clearly too long. I am going to enter the existing lead section here, and let's talk about any portions which have been excluded which anyone thinks should go back in, rather than have a revert war. This may be helpful since this is a semi-protected article. Vaoverland 18:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Lead section text from January 7, 2007 follows (images removed)

Jamestown, or Jamestown Island, was founded in 1607 as the first permanent English settlement in North America.

Jamestown is on the James River in what is currently James City County, Virginia, about 40 miles (62 km) inland from the Atlantic Ocean and the entrance to the Chesapeake Bay and about 45 miles (70 km) downstream and southeast of Richmond, Virginia. Both the James River and the old settlement were named for King James I of England, who granted the private proprietorship to the competing Virginia Companies of London and Plymouth. The Virginia Company of London's enterprise, the Virginia Colony, which was first established at Jamestown, was the first permanent English colony in what is now the United States to survive.

The success of the Jamestown Settlement followed the failure of 18 earlier attempts including the Lost Colony of Roanoke Island to the south in what is now North Carolina. Jamestown is second only to St. Augustine, Florida as the oldest continuously occupied European settlement in the present-day United States, the latter having been founded 42 years earlier (1565) by Pedro Menéndez de Avilés of Spain. Santa Fe, New Mexico was also founded in 1607. After also suffering earlier failures, the successor to the Virginia Company of Plymouth successfully established settlements in Massachusetts and other parts of what became New England in 1620.

The location for Jamestown was selected primarily because it offered a deep water port adjacent to the land for a fort, important for a defensive position against other European forces which might approach by water. However, the swampy and isolated site was plagued by mosquitoes, brackish tidal river water unsuitable for drinking, and offered limited space for major expansion. Perhaps the best thing about it was that it was not inhabited by members of the Powhatan Confederacy, which was composed of the principal Algonquian-speaking Native American tribes that lived near Jamestown.

Starvation, hostile relations with the Powhatans, and lack of profitable exports all threatened the survival of Jamestown and the surrounding colony in the early years as the settlers and the Virginia Company of London each struggled. A low point was reached over the winter of 1609-10, and the following summer, the settlement was almost abandoned. However, one of the new arrivals of 1610, colonist John Rolfe, introduced and cultivated a sweeter strain of tobacco than the native variety, and it was successfully exported in 1612. Soon, the financial outlook for the colony became more favorable. Important changes by the Company's owners in London which became effective in 1619 attracted additional investments for the proprietary company, also sowing the first seeds of democracy in the process with a locally-elected body which became the House of Burgesses. However, the King was reluctant to lose either power or future financial potential. In 1624, the company lost its charter and Virginia became a royal colony.

Throughout the 17th century, Jamestown was the capital of the Virginia Colony. To many, the names were synonymous. Gradually, other less important points emerged along the James River as the colony grew. Since the economy was primarily agricultural, in the early period, other than Jamestown, most developments were large plantations rather than traditional towns, usually located near the waterways such as the James River, and many had their own wharfs. However, by 1619, the newly-formed House of Burgesses ordered that each county establish a principal town which would have warehouses for both imports and exports, and some concentrated housing. Much future growth would pass Jamestown by.

Several times during contingencies, such as fires and Bacon's Rebellion in 1676, the seat of government for the colony was shifted temporarily to nearby Middle Plantation, a fortified location on the high ridge approximately equidistant from the James and York Rivers on the Virginia Peninsula. When the Colony was finally granted a long-desired charter for a college in 1693, Middle Plantation was chosen as the site of the new College of William and Mary, named for the British king and queen who granted the royal charter.

After another accidental state house fire at Jamestown in 1698, the capital of the Colony was permanently relocated to Middle Plantation in 1699. The new capital town was soon renamed Williamsburg, in honor of the current British king, William III.

After the capital was relocated, Jamestown began a gradual loss of prominence and eventually reverted to a few large farms. It again became a significant point for control of the James River during the American Civil War (1861-1865), and then slid back into seeming oblivion until the early 20th century.

Renewed interest in the historical aspects began early in the 20th century as the 300th anniversary of the founding of Jamestown approached. As a celebration was planned, the general area of Jamestown was considered unsuitable, as it was not very accessible in the day of rail travel before automobiles were common. Thus, the Jamestown Exposition was held in 1907 about 30 miles downstream in Norfolk County, near the mouth of the James River at Sewell's Point on Hampton Roads, a site accessible by both long-distance passenger railroads and local streetcar service, with considerable frontage on the harbor of Hampton Roads, which proved ideal for the naval delegations which came from points all around the world. The Exposition site later formed the first portion of the large U.S. Naval Station Norfolk in 1918 during World War I.

However, with improved roads and transportation, the 350th anniversary celebration was held at Jamestown itself in 1957. Although erosion had cut off the land bridge between Jamestown Island and the mainland, the isthmus was restored and new access provided by the completion of the National Park Service's Colonial Parkway which led to Williamsburg and Yorktown, the other two portions of Colonial Virginia's Historic Triangle. Major projects such as the Jamestown Festival Park were developed by non-profit, state and federal agencies, as well as improvements of state highways. Queen Elizabeth II of Great Britain and Prince Phillip attended. The 1957 event was considered a great success, and tourism became continuous, and attractions have been enhanced and updated.

The two major attractions at Jamestown are separate, but complementary to each other. The state-sponsored Jamestown Settlement near the entrance to Jamestown Island includes a recreated English Fort and Native American Village, as well as extensive indoor and outdoor displays featuring three popular replica ships. On Jamestown Island itself, the National Park Service operates Historic Jamestowne. Over a million artifacts have been recovered from the ongoing archaeological work, including a number of exciting recent discoveries. Several monuments and a loop road around the island are also popular attractions. The Colonial Parkway provides access directly to these, as well as State Route 31, which extends to nearby Williamsburg, as well as crossing the free Jamestown Ferry to areas south of the James River.

Early in the 21st century, archaeological work and discoveries generated a great deal of new interest. In preparation for the upcoming Jamestown 2007 event commemorating America's 400th Anniversary, new accommodations, transportation facilities and attractions were planned. The celebration began in the Spring of 2006 with the sailing of a new replica Godspeed to six major East Coast cities, where several hundred thousand people viewed it. Major corporate sponsors of Jamestown 2007 include Norfolk Southern Corporation, Verizon Communications, and Anheuser-Busch. Queen Elizabeth II of Great Britain and Prince Phillip have announced intentions to pay another state visit to Jamestown in May 2007. (end)


 * OK, I have made a substantial condensation of the lead, taking care as best I can to be sure that any content was preserved in the various sections which follow. I added an image from 1957, since Queen Elizabeth II and Prince phillip have announced they will return in May 2007. It seems more balanced, Opinions, anyone? Vaoverland 19:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Just a note here. I've revised the wording in the lead phrasing to say that Jamestown was the first successful English colony "in the New World, following 18 previous failed attempts", in place of your "in what would become the United States...".  If you want to use the statistic of 18 failed attempts, that total includes failures in Nova Scotia, Gibraltar, North Africa, the Carribean, etc. as well as many that weren't truly attempts at colonization, rather just explorations.  The only failed English attempts prior to Jamestown within the current U.S. boundaries, were Roanoke and Sagahadoc(Maine). Blackehart 00:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Hundreds
The claim that dividing the land into "hundreds" refers to the number of settlers expected to inhabit that portion is incorrect. A "hundred" is an ancient term for a division of an English county i.e. Chiltern Hundreds, and the term came from that usage - see reference in the article Riddley 11:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

i agree with this. you should change it Firl21 (talk) 14:51, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments about Jamestown and the Indians
Jamestown is a good place, a lot had happened there.Many people got sick there, because of the nasty desises that has been spreaded from the swamp. the colonists dranked and bathed in the swamp.The bugs lived in the swamps too. That's main reason why they got sick.They starved, because they didn't know how to farm.Later,the Indians showed the colonist how to farm their food. They soon stared farming and needed more room. They took the Indian's land without permission.This started a war between the Jamestown settlers and Indians.


 * Note: The above comments were added by an unregistered user. I have moved them down here, not to censor, but rather, to include properly. To the contributor who added them, you have made good points. Please consider registering as a user and joining us in improving and learning. Mark in Historic Triangle Vaoverland 23:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Poles?
Have you something more about Poles, the first Polish settlers in America, the 1st Polish-Americans, in Jamestown? Kowalmistrz 16:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I added this reference to http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/first_dutchmen_of_america.htm The title is a bit of a play on an 1958 article called the First Poles of America - in which the author slams the (apparently) fake document on which many claims about Polish participation at Jamestown were based, including the full name, hometown, and profession of several Poles, and details such as their digging the first well and playing the first baseball game. Somewhat to my amuzement, although zero new information has been uncovered by historians in the last 50 years, a number of articles started appearing recently that listed the names and hometowns and professions of the GERMAN colonists.... entirely fanciful, sometimes by enthuastic German nationalists but sometimes by PHD historians who should know better.

Also, I often find odd tidbits here... I just removed a completly out-of-thin-air unfounded assertion that the 8 dutchmen and poles were recruited in *Royal Prussia*!!!!! It would be great if we had any such information, but, really, we simply do not! I also wanted to take to task the contenton that 'dutchmen' ment 'german'. it MAY have ment that. But I rather think that some people more familiar with 20th C. Pensylvania dutch dialect than 17th C. dialect made some agressive assumptions. When I became curious about this assertion 3-4 years ago, I thought it would be interesting if I could find a paragraph or a sentence of actual early 17th C. English where the terms 'dutchmen' and 'german' were together and clearly refered to two different groups. It took me about 3 minutes with Google to find a couple examples. Plus about a hundred unambigious cases where 'dutch' or 'dutchmen' clearly referred to employees of the east india company or were otherwish clearly NOT what we today call 'german'. OK, Captain Smith's dutchmen MAY have been German, but if there is any kid out there with ancestors from Zeeland or Holland, don't worry, nobody can say your ancestors had nothing to contribute to Jamestown. Rick Orli —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.29.43.1 (talk) 19:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Johann Theodor de Bry (1528 – 1598)
How is Johann Theodor de Bry (1528 – 1598) supposed to have made a woodcut of the Indian massacre of 1622? --Ibn Battuta 02:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Good catch. I did a little digging around, and it looks like this image was from a 1628 edition produced by de Bry's workshop. The image itself was made by Matthaeus Merian. This site has some info on it.  Thanks for pointing this out. I completely missed this when I labeled the image.--Bkwillwm 01:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

restructure of article
There have been many comments about this article being just too big. After giving it a lot of thought, I think we could break out a major part of it into a sub-article, perhaps entitled "History of Jamestown Settlement", essentially covering the 17th century period, ending when the capital moved to Williamsburg. I can do this, but do not want to move on it unilaterally. Can we have some comments about this approach, please? Thanks, Mark in Historic Triangle of Virginia Vaoverland 16:11, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Please discuss the proposed article split here --Willy No1lakersfan (Talk - Contribs) 16:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the article is on the long side. My first thought on breaking something out of the article relates to the Jamestown, Virginia section. This section does not seem to relate directly to Jamestown and could easily stand alone as an article. It does not appear that there is already an article on slavery in VA.-- Kubigula (talk) 21:27, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps some of that content would be more appropriately added to the existing article History of slavery in the United States? This portion of our Jamestown article has been gradually growing, but slavery really wasn't much of a Jamestown issue, so much as it was one for Virginia and the other colonies (and later states) particularily in the labor-intensive farming regions of the South, border states, and in the salt mines of what became West Virginia.
 * Vaoverland 22:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It could certainly be merged with History of slavery in the United States, but that would take some heavy editing to add the content to the various sections of that article. Also, that article is already also pretty lengthy, so I suggest we use this as the basis for a History of slavery in Virginia or just Slavery in Virginia article.-- Kubigula (talk) 03:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Looking at History of slavery in the United States, there is a template which would seem to be prepared to lead to state-by-state articles. However, most of our content is from the Colonial period in Virginia. Vaoverland 06:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the article should be split along the lines Mark suggested. Also, the "Slavery in Virginia" section should be either a separate article or incorporated into another article, perhaps Slavery_in_Colonial_America and the following section.--Kenmayer 13:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Elections and Corporate Ventures
Despite the current length of the article, shouldn't there be reference to the fact that the first-ever elections in the New World happened at Jamestown? This was relatively unheard of in Jacobian England or elsewhere in Europe at the time, and it's especially significant that it happened in a place that would later come to regard itself as the seat of world democracy.

Also, what about the fact that the earliest English colonisation in America was conducted not by the crown, not by religious refugees, but by a corporation? I know it's in the article somewhat, but I don't know if this point is made. I don't know if it warrants another paragraph...I'm just asking. Apart from democracy and religious freedom, what is America known for? Big Business? If so, wouldn't it be germaine to include America's corporate beginnings?Blackehart 08:51, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Atrocities against Indians and bias in the article
While this article is generally well researched, it is very biased toward the colonist's point of view when it comes to atrocities. The Indian population in the area declined from 15.000 to 1.500 after the settlement was established, due to diseases and killings brought by the settlers. I have therefore under "Jamestown 2007" included two comments of Indian chiefs and their feelings toward the festivities and would be grateful if the rest of article could acknowledge that settlers killed a large number of Indians 83.233.180.31 16:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Not trying to dismiss your comments, which are valid, but don't forget that Indians also killed colonists -- and there were plenty of times where there was a great deal of friendship. Just a word of caution, since it is hard to get the right balance. Meeples ( talk )( email ) 20:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I, too, don't want to dismiss the comments by unknown poster above (btw, you need to sign your posts, using 4 tildes ~)...but you titled your post as "atrocities". That by itself signifies a certain bias on the opposite side. Let's understand, the colonists didn't come with the purpose of harming the natives- they weren't on an eradication mission, a la' the Nazi's taking over eastern Europe, the final "Jewish solution" or any of that. And they arrived weak and in no condition to go into a state of extended warfare with the Indians. In fact, if the Indians had had their act together, they could easily have overwhelmed the Europeans and ended Jamestown in a month. Or at any time in the first 15 years... If there was an atrocity, it was the poisoning incident (I believe 1622 ?).


 * But let's be clear - bringing unknown diseases, having superior weaponry (which is questionable, in fact - matchlocks and broadswords vs bows and war clubs) and all that, does not amount to "atrocities" in the general sense of that word...Engr105th 02:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think there is room to expand the Indian's perspective; it is covered somewhat in the Powhatan article; but we can certainly include some specifics of the negative impact upon those who were already there in the History of Jamestown Settlement section. Any sources to suggest, anyone? Vaoverland 22:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I commented in response to your question above. Unfortunatly there are a lot of highly questionable sources below. The Barbor article in particular attacks the validity of the material in http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/jamestownpoles.htm (The Story of the First Poles in America, Told in First Person- Zbigniew Stefanski of Wloclawek Memorialium Commercatoris Diary of a Merchant!)

Hey wait, thats my web site! If you read the introduction, I clearly state my belief that it is not a genuine historical article, but a fake, as argued by Barbour (I will reedit the introduction to remove any ambiguity). The articles by Waldo and several of the others are built on the information of this bogus document.

Anything I have to say about it that is good is that as a work of fiction its OK, for which I had a use, but otherwise, I wish it would disapear.

Umiński, Sigmund H.,"The Polish Pioneers in Virginia" 1974. is pretty good, and also discredits Waldo and Stefanski

I am more pointed in these articles http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/first_dutchmen_of_america.htm http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/jamestown_settlement_light_indus.htm http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/Jamestown%20Primary%20Sources.htm

-Thanks Rick Orli —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.29.43.1 (talk) 19:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Poles in Jamestown
I have some interesting sources about Poles in Jamestown and their role in the beginngings of the New World:

http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/polcrt/AmPoles.html#Section5

http://www.polishnews.com/text/news_and_correspondence/poles_at_jamestown.html

http://www.polacywjamestown.org/ (in Polish, but the most interesting! with parts of memoirs of Jamestown Polish merchant)

http://spec.lib.vt.edu/viva/Jamestownbibliographyviva.pdf

http://www.polishcultureacpc.org/prez.html

http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/jamestownpoles.htm (The Story of the First Poles in America, Told in First Person- Zbigniew Stefanski of Wloclawek Memorialium Commercatoris Diary of a Merchant!)

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~atpc/polonia/usa/plam-history.html (includes: 1608 - Jamestown, VA: Poles working in America as glassblowers for British owned London Company. 1619 - Jamestown, VA: First labor strike in America was held by the Poles in Jamestown. Poles were denied the right to vote in the election of the Virginia House of Burgesses. The Poles walked off their jobs affecting the local industry that ultimately gained them the right to vote. (Source: Washington Post) -Learn More- 1619 - Planters from Virginia begin bringing African laborers to US. Most were not slaves at this time, but by the 1660s, these involuntary immigrants became a part of a system of slavery.)

1. Publications:

1. Barbour, Philip, "The identity of the first Poles in America", William and Mary Quarterly, 3rd Series, vol. XXI (January 1964), No 1, s. 77-92 [rec.: Janina Żurawicka, "W poszukiwaniu prawdy o pierwszych polakach w Ameryce", Problemy Polonii Zagranicznej, t. 4 (1964/1965), s. 282-285]

2. Barbour, Philip, Pocahontas and her world. A chronicle of America's first settlement in which is related the story of the Indians and Englishmen - particularly Captain John Smith, Captain Samuel Angall, and Master John Rolfe, Boston: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1970, s. 320

3. Barbour, Philip (ed.), The Jamestown voyages under the first charter 1608-1609. Works issued by the Hakluyt Society, Second Series, No. 136-137, Cambridge: University Press, 1969

4. Chandler, Alvin Duke, "The Poles at Jamestown", Polish Review, vol. 2 (autumn 1957), no 4, s. 3-6

5. Chrobot, Leonard F. et al., "What and how we know about the Poles at Jamestown", Polish American Studies, XV (1958) [8 papers from St. Mary's College Symposium]

6. Dziob, Francis W., Karol Burke, and Joseph Wiewiora, Jamestown Pioneers From Poland, Chicago, IL: Polish American Congress, 1958, p. 89 [revised edition: Joseph Wiewiora (ed.), Jamestown pioneers from Poland, Chicago : Polish American Congress' Charitable Foundation, 1976, 52 p.] A commemorative book published on the 350th anniversary of the arrival of the first Poles in America. Contains reprints of articles, speeches, and congressional addresses on the Jamestown Poles. Profusely illustrated.

7. Harrington, J. C., Glassmaking at Jamestown. America's first industry, Richmond, VA: Dietz Press, 1952

8. Pilarski, Laura. They Came From Poland: The Stories of Famous Polish-Americans. New York, NY: Dodd, Mead and Company, 1969. Brief biographies of noted Poles who have made lasting contributions to America's history and culture. Includes profiles of the Jamestown Poles, Casimir Pulaski, Thaddeus Kosciuszko, Anthony Sadowski, Helena Modjeska, Ignace Jan Paderewski, Casimir Funk, Matthew Nowicki, Artur Rubinstein, Edmund Muskie, John Gronouski, and Stan Musial.

9. Renkiewicz, Frank, ed. The Poles in America, 1608-1972: A Chronology and Fact Book. Ethnic Chronology Series #9. Dobbs Ferry, NY: Oceana Publications, 1973. An annotated chronology of the major events in the evolution of the Polish-American community. Contains significant excerpts from documents which illustrate this evolution. Includes Captain John Smith's remarks on the Jamestown Poles; Pulaski's last letter to the Continental Congress; the entire text of Kosciuszko's will; immigrant letters, newspaper and journal articles; the statement of purpose of Detroit's Black-Polish Conference; and remarks by Edmund Muskie, Eugene Kusielewicz, Barbara Mikulski, and Aloysius Mazewski. Statistical appendices.

10. Poland discovers America, New York: Polish Publishing Society of America, 1972, s. 117 [bibliogr.]

11. Umiński, Sigmund H.,"The Polish Pioneers in Virginia" 1974.

12. Waldo, Arthur L., "Searching for Polish Jamestown sources", Polish American Studies, vol. 17 (1960), no. 3/4, s. 105-114

13. Waldo, Arthur L., First Poles in America 1608-1958. In commemoration of their landing at Jamestown October 1, 1608, Pittsburg: Polish Falcons of America, 1957 [repr. Waldo, Artur L. [1896-1985], First Poles in America, 1608-1958 : in commemoration of the 350th anniversary of their landing at Jamestown, Virginia, October 1, 1608, Wydawnictwo Sokola, 1976; 24 p. : ill., facsim., ports. ; 24 cm]

14. Waldo, Arthur L. [1896-1985], True heroes of Jamestown, Miami, Fla. : American Institute of Polish Culture, 1977; 256 p. : ill. ; 25 cm.

Kowalmistrz 18:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Why Plymouth colony seems more important?
Although Jamestown colony was established earlier, Plymouth colony seems got more attention. Like those Mayflower, pilgrims, and Thanksgiving stories are considered as the official beginning of British colonization of North America. Stories related to Jamestown, like Pontahontas, seems much less serious and less important. Why? --Mongol 20:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * From what I've sen and heard, you are correct - Plymouth has traditionally gotten more attention. I'd speculate this has something to do several factors: 1) the "religious" theme of the Mayflower colony. It was about people, not a company (ie, the Virginia Co)... 2) Plymouth is associated with the traditional Thanksgiving celebration - America's first very own 'holiday'. (Even though theres a lot of myths surrounding Thanksgiving). Jamestown has no such national-traditional attraction... 3) The New England colonies expanded quicker than the southern colonies (though Virginia is arguably a Mid-Atlantic state rather than southern). The earlier development of New England - versus, say, Georgia - perhaps means their traditions became institutionalized much quicker. New England was about townships and trade; the South was about independent plantations, etc...thats just my speculation:)....Engr105th 00:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Needs references/citations throughout
I'm forgetting the template...

Jamestown back then.
Who founded Jamestown?

Why did the find Jamestown? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.8.153.51 (talk) 21:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Too Long?
i agree with the man below — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.213.29 (talk) 04:38, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Im sorry but how can an article be too long? All of the facts are legitimate.Fheo 14:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a point of reason to the length of an article. WP is an encyclopedia and the coverage of topics should be relatively brief.  Entire books have been written about Jamestown.  Obviously there is a happy medium between too much and too little.  I tend to agree with you that such an important topic should be covered rather thoroughly and have no problem with the length of the article.VirginiaProp 15:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This has come up before and with this article. The best way to address is gradually move portions of sections into their own subarticles and condense portion in Main article. We do that a lot with articles about states and cities; look at Richmond, Virginia to get an idea, not a model article, but one which does show what I am trying to explain. This kind of activity is good for the help of some Wikipedians who may not be as research-content generating type folks, but strong on style and format (a super example of collaboration concepts). I would also oppose deleting any content from this article except perhaps by reducing size in that manner. Mark in Historic Triangle 16:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * What about moving the entire section named 'History of the Jamestown Settlement 1607-1699' to the article named Jamestown Settlement Hmains 04:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * the problems I have with that are that to the best of my knowledge, no one called it Jamestown Settlement at the time. It was called James Town and Jamestowne in historical accounts 2. In modern times, Jamestown Settlement is the name of one of the two separate attractions near there, but the other one (Historic Jamestowne) is actually on the site on Jamestown Island. I think we should try not to expand any confusion. I think it would be better to sub it as as its own article, perhaps named "History of Jamestown 1607-1699" and speak to it in very abbreviated form only in the main Jamestown article, with the customary template for subs. I am an admin and will do the work of all this, but only if we have a consensus. Feel free to express either support or other thoughts, folks. Mark in Historic Triangle of Virginia 04:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This suggestion seems reasonable to me. Hmains 18:07, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be smart - is it worth leaving a short header/paragraph with key point, and just doing an article link? I like using the years, but might we want to move over more than just those years (ie, all of the settlement info?) Eric kennedy (talk) 02:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC) Honestly i don't care at all! (98.254.165.105 (talk) 01:12, 6 October 2010 (UTC))

2 Pocahontases
Im confuzzled

in this entry they mention her dying and then they mention another one. Were ther 2 girls named pocahontas or did somebody just mess up their info?

67.168.43.238 (talk) 19:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC) astronut17

definetley too long

About splitting up the article
I think it would be very useful to split up the article into Jamestown History, Jamestown, Virginia (for present-day information), or something like that. It is a bit overwhelming to find so much information all in one place, especially when you're only interested in the history, or the modern information. 165.98.245.210 (talk) 21:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)A. Flett, May 5, 2008

Question prominent mention of less relevant topics of a commercial nature
Jamestown was settled in 1607. Yorktown was the site of the end of the Revolution in 1781. (That's 174 years later.)

The second and third paragraphs are way too chock full of names of at best marginally relevant commercial activities in the geographic area, including: Yorktown Battlefield, Yorktown Victory Center, Colonial National Historic Park, Colonial Williamsburg and its Foundation. Even the Historical triangle and the Colonial Parkway are not germane to Jamestown as a settlement, but rather are 20th Century artifacts that serve to connect commercial ventures in the area, merely due to their coincidental proximity.

Yes, they're important, but placed so highly in an article on Yorktown, they serve as as an advertisement for local businesses, and seem particuluary crass commercialism in an article about Jamestown.

Let's sum it up this way: No history book I've ever read has listed local tourist sites high up in an explanation of the significance of Jamestown. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.111.127.190 (talk) 03:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

definately split!!
this article is too long! try doing it with the original Jamestown this article, and the The Legacy of Jamestown for the other time periods. Dcoll ins52 Tell me what you think 20:59, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

who?
who is the author or current editor of the articles?68.221.141.129 (talk) 02:51, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyone can edit as long as there exist Verifiable sources. Please do not just delete content without discussing first. Shlomke (talk) 02:58, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

ECONOMY
I have read all of the Jamestown articles in search of a section bearing this title, but no such section exists. A section on the economy would seem to be fundamental, but I find no such section. Yes, there is a discussion of tobacco, but I find no discussion of the hunt for gold nor of the experiment with a communist economy. Perhaps there should even be a new article on the economy of Jamestown from founding up until it was abandoned for Williamsburg? If an article on the economy of Jamestown is created, then it should be linked to the articles on American economic history.

I thank you all for your work on these fine articles. Sincere regards, Rumjal rumjal 06:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rumjal (talk • contribs)

Town?
The article name seems to give the idea that Jamestown is still actually a town, with actual people living there, yet there is no information at all about anything not related to the history of the place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DraconianDebate (talk • contribs) 00:11, 19 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That's because there is no actual town of Jamestown in the present day. However, there is a "Jamestown, Virginia" as a mailing address and it is used by the National Park Service and Preservation Virginia who jointly own Historic Jamestowne island, where the actual town used to be.  There is also still someone who lives on the island so it is occupied, just not as a town.Sarah1607 (talk) 12:01, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

out of place?
there seems to be a bit of 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st, century history in the "Settlement (1607–1705)" section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.194.18 (talk) 22:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed. All that text was redundant with the remainder of the article, and has been removed. Morgan Riley (talk) 01:27, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

When was the capitol moved to Williamsburg?
"Jamestown was the capital of the Colony for 103 years, from 1616 until 1699." Erm, unlikely. Perhaps someone could rectify (unless basic Math didn't quite survive the transatlantic voyage). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.192.219 (talk) 10:38, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

This website http://www.history.org/almanack/places/hb/hbcap.cfm says it was changed in 1699 after the Jamestown statehouse burned down for the third time. The city government site https://www.williamsburgva.gov/Index.aspx?page=124 concurs, it was 1699. Risssa (talk) 00:00, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

General Vandalism this week -- PROTECT article
The piecemeal edits and reverts are not getting it done. Please institute whatever level of protection is appropriate to stop this. "Rojas" kiddie vandalism survived for 7 days! All offending IP's should be blocked.

Proposal: split off content into a "Commemoration of Jamestown, Virginia" page?
Despite the crucial importance of the topic to a thorough coverage of American/Virginian history, much of the content in this particular article relates to various commemorations over the years, rather than the substance of the town itself (due to that having its own enormous article). Given that the page is fairly long right now, would any object to it being split off and a page dedicated to the the various commemorations over the years, and the space it presently takes replaced with a summary-style section overviewing them (as much of the rest of the page seems to be in summary style)? Any thoughts as to what to call it? "Commemoration of Jamestown, Virginia" compares favorably with a few other "Commemoration"-titled articles.Morgan Riley (talk) 02:45, 27 September 2011 (UTC)


 * There have been previous splits of the article, so it's less of a monster than it used to be. However, I agree that it could use more paring, and I think the proposal is a good one.-- Kubigula (talk) 03:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Settlers drank beer
My partner and I went to Jamestown this past weekend and learned from a tour guide that the settlers drank 3% ABV ale regularly. This was made in their houses by their wives. Drinkable due to bacteria killed by the alcohol, however water from the river was obviously too dangerous to drink by itself. Wine was not drank due to failed attempts at cultivating grapes (in addition to silk, though mulberry trees were planted to feed silk worms).

69.143.193.34 (talk) 17:17, 13 July 2012 (UTC)Rob

Other Commemoration
Can anyone explain what this section is doing here?
 * "In 1987, John Otho Marsh, Jr., the Secretary of the Army of the United States of America, planted an oak tree at Runnymede England commemorating and linking the bicentenary of the Constitution with the establishment of the Jamestown settlement.[citation needed]"

It seems to me to be out of place and not particularly relevant... if this belongs on the article I'm sure there are countless other commemorations that could also deserve a place. Furthermore, it's out of chronological order with the other commemorations and has no source. Can anyone shed some light? Importemps (talk) 15:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Jamestown Colony?
I think this title should be changed to "Jamestown Colony, Virginia." I initially thought the article was about some town in Virginia that is using the same name. Risssa (talk) 23:40, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * That was never an official name, within a few years Jamestown was not the only settlement in Virginia Colony and none of the other settlements there were called "__ Colony". "Jamestown, Virginia Colony" might be more accurate? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 23:45, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Gunpowder Day?
Any info about Gunpowder Day being celebrated in Jamestown? (Later in the 1600s it would be called Gunpowder Treason Day, but in the early 1600s it was just Gunpowder Day.) By default it should have been, since it was a public holiday by the Thanksgiving Act and was in the Book of Common Prayer (in the Liturgy section, under "Prayer and Thanksgiving for the happy deliverance of his Majestie, the Queene, Prince, and States of Parliament from the bloody intended Massacre by Gunpowder on the 5th of November, 1605"). This was the 1605/06 supplement to the Hampton Court (1604) revision of the Queen Elizabeth edition (1552). It's my understanding that the Virginia Company vetted the settlers to exclude all nonconformists, including Catholics, Puritans, Quakers, etc., so the early settlers should have been proper Anglicans.

Of course the bonfires and merry-making were never an official part of the holiday later generations would call Guy Fawkes Night. Instead, on public holidays people went to church in the morning, as on Sunday, then for the rest of the day were bound by Sabbath blue-laws: no work, no public entertainments, and no outdoor recreations. At least until sundown. The reason I'm asking is because I'm working on the Guy Fawkes Night, Thanksgiving, and Thanksgiving (United States) articles. Zyxwv99 (talk) 01:35, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Dutch = German?
The recent edit on this looks questionable. In the English language Dutch meant German until 1588, before which time the Dutch were considered just another sort of German or vice versa. Zyxwv99 (talk) 21:19, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, to give a few quick refs, the National Park Service supports the 1608 Dutch = Germans interpretation: here and here, as does the Library of Congress here and the Virginia Department of Historic Resources here.Morgan Riley (talk) 21:49, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * OK. Thanks. Zyxwv99 (talk) 16:12, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

First two women?
That needs to be corrected to the Europeans brought the first European women. There were women already in the Americas before the Europeans invaded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.101.1.119 (talk) 16:03, 3 October 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅ Good point. -- Mojo Hand (talk) 20:23, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Erroneous reference to malaria
The article implies that malaria originated either in the "malarial swamp" or in malaria-carrying mosquitoes. Neither of these is correct: malaria was imported to North America in the blood of the European colonists, who brought it from Europe, where it was endemic at that time. Since all of the colonists would have been exposed to malaria prior to crossing the Atlantic, they would probably not have suffered much from reinfection via Anopheles mosquitoes (which were already present in the New World but had not been exposed to Plasmodium). For that reason, malaria was probably not a serious health problem in the Jamestown Settlement--although for the nearby Native American communities, it undoubtedly was.

It is likely that the colonists suffered from fevers and the ague, but it is impossible for us to know if these represented malarial infections or other febrile illnesses.

I propose that references to malaria be removed from this article. Cmacauley (talk) 01:21, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

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First Colony of Empire
I was astounded to read, on the Slate website that Jamestown was the first colony of the British Empire. The author of the Slate article quotes William Kelso directly as telling Queen Elizabeth "Your majesty, this is where the British Empire began, this was not just the first American colony, this was the first colony in the British Empire." To me this is an astonishingly important fact, that as an American I was never taught. Everything that Americans write, read as did this article, when its first line says, "the first permanent English settlement in the Americas".

Please I am not being nasty to the authors. I would have written that first sentence that way, which is exactly my point here. That, that sentence as originally written misses entirely the historical importance of the founding of Jamestown. This colony was a success, which prompted others in England to want to get in on the profits. There quickly followed other successful colonies, and, though no one at the time knew it, the British Empire began to grow. So it led directly to the two most consequential national entities: The United States of America, and the British Empire, and everything the world is today is a result of the actions of those two.

It just seems to me to be essential to mention here, the second consequence, with the first. Nick Beeson (talk) 15:07, 23 June 2014 (UTC)


 * To expand on this quote, I think it needs to be clarified or removed entirely because Jamestown was in fact NOT the first English colony. England began colonizing Ireland as early as 1155 with King Henry and the Papal Bull. It was in full effect in by 1537 with the re-conquest and total colonization. This is not an obscure theory, it's general knowledge and even listed in the History of Ireland Wikipedia page 208.78.140.192 (talk) 14:04, 11 December 2015 (UTC)Brian

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Tobacco brides
Mention should be made that the colonists were all male until the tobacco brides arrived in 1619. Wow--this article needs a lot of work. I'll try to come back when I have more time. YoPienso (talk) 17:52, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2021
Jamestown is the second oldest English settlement in the Americas. Harbour Grace Newfoundland Canada is the oldest continually inhabited.

Change Jamestown is oldest English settlement in Americas to fourth, or second continuously inhabited. Jamestown is actually the fourth English settlement in the Americas, after St. John's Newfoundland, Harbour Grace Newfoundland, and the Roanoke Settlement. 72.38.224.90 (talk) 19:23, 26 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 20:41, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:20, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
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What's John Marshall?
What's John Marshall?

As of 2021-12-17 three different notes cite different pages in "John Marshall". To what does that refer? I want to cite it but cannot find a complete citation.

Obviously, those citations should be fixed somehow. Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 14:57, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: HIST 2010 Early U.S. History
— Assignment last updated by Candicephillips (talk) 01:53, 3 October 2022 (UTC)