Talk:Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind/Archive 1

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Update
Everyone might be knowing that Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind is split in to two factions since long; and each have their own views and so on. I was astonished to see that these issues weren't updated on the article. I wanted to recommend that there should be separate pages for each faction as the leadership is already notable, so both the groups. We can add a short section about History of this division on this article. And this would prevent this article for vandalism as well. Regards - Aaqib Anjum Aafī (talk) 01:52, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Congregation
do you mean “conference” when you say “meet in congregation”? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 09:11, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , My bad. I've fixed that. Since the major historical sources are in Urdu, I often get confused with the alternative English words. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  09:16, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hey, no criticism from me! I still understood what was being said. I’m having a read to see if I can help with a bit of copyediting. Might take me some time though, hope that’s ok. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 09:20, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , This would be a great help for me because I often make mistakes. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  09:24, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Jamait
does Jamait mean council? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 09:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , Council is fine to be used for Jamiat. Rekhta gives a number of alternate words including organisation and league. Use whatever you find best and fit in the article. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  09:40, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * but "council and organisation" are more common. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  09:41, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I am fine with calling it a Jamait :-) just wanted to clarify. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 09:45, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I would like to keep the term Jamiat, but for the understanding of English speaking, non-Muslim readers, would you be OK with us adding a brief note in the lead that "Jamiat is a term in an Islamic context referring to a political party or other organisation. The word comes from the Arabic for gathering (جمع), from which it has also been adopted into Persian, Urdu and other languages." or something like this? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 15:04, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , I don't think there is anything wrong in this. The one you mentioned just above also sounds fine to me. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  15:08, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I have added box. I have asked on WP:HELPDESK for some assistance with layout. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 16:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Copyedit
I'm going through and doing a copyedit to make things flow a little better. , please tell me if I change the meaning of anything. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 16:14, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I've gotten up to the first paragraph of "Governance", but need to stop as I'm getting tired. I will try to get back to this when I am next free. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 16:15, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , I really appreciate your efforts. I've a little doubt over this In the first general meeting, in Amritsar, that, it was decreed that these be published and opinions gathered from the gathered scholars. I think the word "that" after Amritsar, and "the repetitive usage of "gathered", is extraneous. I'm not much well versed in the language, so, I'd leave it to you... Thank you! ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  16:20, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Haha, I literally just noticed I'd messed that up! Fixed now. That was me typing too quickly, and making a change over another change to try to make the text flow better. See, even native speakers mess up. :-) - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 16:25, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, so I said I was going to bed, but actually I did a bit more of an edit. For my own reference, I am up to "Partition of India". - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 16:41, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Stamp
What does "Al-Jamiat al-Markaziyyah li al-Ulama il-Hind" mean in English? Google translate gives me "Central Universities for my good luck", which is less than ideal... - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 16:24, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , "The Central Council of the Scholars of India". ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  16:25, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Clarification
forgive my ignorance, but with the sentence:
 * “During the British Raj, the Deobandi and Deoband-based organization opposed British rule in India and called for a united India, opposing the formation of a separate homeland for Indian Muslims.”

… is the organisation the Jamiat, or were you trying to say Deoband and Deoband-based organisations opposed British rule? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 16:59, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , This existed in the article before I 5x expanded it for DYK, I assume it means "the Darul Uloom Deoband", which is often just known as Deoband, and the organisation "Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind" (Deoband based organisation). Hope this makes sense now. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  17:05, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Umm… not really. Does that mean that the Jamiat and other organisations opposed British rule? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 17:09, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think I see now. Does the update I made make sense? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 17:15, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , "Deobandi" is an idealogy that is followed, so it refers to the Jamiat as a Deobandi organisation. The linked ref says about its work against partition, and "Deoband-based" makes me incline to say that it refers to Darul Uloom Deoband (I don't have currently the access of the other cited source). Jamiat is not "Deoband-based organisation" but it is necessarily now a "Deobandi organisation". The Deoband and the Jamiat are both known to have opposed British, and its two major founders were students of Mahmud Hasan Deobandi, the principal of Deoband. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  17:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * So should this read “the Darul Uloom Deoband and the Jamait opposed British rule in India”? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 17:25, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , Yes, I accessed the Cambridge book, and it didn't mention Darul Uloom, and the other sources just linked "Jamiat Ulama and Darul Uloom", I'd add a helping source tomorrow. It should read as "The Darul Uloom Deoband and the Jamiat opposed......" ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  17:27, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I’ve updated the text, please feel free to add the source when you are able. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 17:31, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , I've updated the relevant things but "I feel, I should update the stuff and just focus on Jamiat, without mentioning the Deoband". Hopefully, I'll do it in the morning. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  18:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , I have cited from a book of Muhammad Miyan Deobandi, called "Ulama-e-Haq aur unke Mujahidana Karname", which doesn't mention "the edition number and the year of publication" but is published by a genuine and well-known publisher based in Deoband. The book has an edited version by Abu Salman Shahjahanpuri but I'm not able to find it online. I hope the citation is fine, it just mentions some historical statements, like "the date of the first general meeting" etc. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  19:57, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Clarification 2
, the text reads:
 * “A faction under Shabbir Ahmad Usmani supporting the creation of Pakistan parted ways in 1945 to support the All Indian Muslim League.”

Just to clarify, did this faction part ways with Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 17:58, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , yes, and Shabbir Ahmad Usmani was associated with the Jamiat almost since its inception, and formed the JuI later to support Pakistan ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  18:01, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Clarification 3
What does “staggered” mean in the following:
 * which resulted in wholesale carnage and numerous Muslims were staggered

Do they mean killed? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 06:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , yes. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  06:21, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Note
The section on the Bahri Madjid needs better background info. As an outsider to all of this, it wasn’t till I chased down a wikilink that I realised what this was all about. Also, “ The Jamiat also said that, no alternate was acceptable for the Babri Masjid. Asshad Rashidi, the president of its Uttar Pradesh circle said that, the working committee of the Jamiat had unanimously decided that there is no alternative for a mosque in the world, including money and land, and It was not right for any Muslim outfit to accept the barter."” needs rewording. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 07:03, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , I'll add a few lines after lunch. This is more about the 2019 Supreme Court verdict on Ayodhya dispute, and I'll add a few lines that give a background to these statements. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  07:10, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , I've added some background information related to Babri Masjid [without going so much into the history]. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  07:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I’m copyeditting this now. Could you clarify which working committee you refer to in “ later presented a report to the working committee”? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 08:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , Kifayatullah Dehlawi, the president visited the site and he presented the report to the working committee of the Jamiat. ─ The Aafī on Mobile   (talk)|undefined  08:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Numbers

 * My bad I used Indian numbers, just clarifying, lakh equals to "a hundred thousand" and "a million equals to ten lakhs". We may need to fix the numbers. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  12:43, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah! please feel free to do this. Thanks . - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 12:51, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , Thanks. I've fixed the numbers. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  13:08, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

More clarification
I need to clarify some things about the following:
 * The Jamiat assisted two people accused in the 26/11 trial, including Faheem Ansari. They were defended by the Jamiat in the trial court and then in the high court which upheld their acquittal, and both were freed of the conspiracy charges.

Questions are: It would be great to know so I can copyedit this bit. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 13:49, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * What is the "26/11 trial"?
 * Can I clarify it was the Institute that aided in their defense?
 * Pinging can you assist? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 13:54, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * 26/11 is linked in the section. Faheem Ansari and other person, Shahabuddin were defended by Shahid Azmi through this Institute, and he was killed during this. ─ The Aafī on Mobile   (talk)|undefined  13:57, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , 26/11 = 2008 Mumbai attacks ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  13:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * this says while he was still in jail and his lawyer Shahid Azmi was shot dead in 2010. In this Faheem is seen with the secretary of legal cell. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  14:09, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , I've made some changes and tried to clarify things. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  15:05, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * excellent. I think we are ready to start the GA review! Thank you so much for helping me with my questions for the copyedit. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 18:01, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , Thanks for all the copyediting support. You've really been nice. I've just included two more sentences in the article [in order to remove citations that had been there in the lede], still I am trying to find a source that calls it Council of Indian Muslim Theologians and then I'd incorporate that citation too within the body. I'm not able to access the source. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  18:26, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * no probs, I will go through the references soon. I'm afraid there are problems with the two logos, the licenses are wrong. I'll go through the references tomorrow. Please don't let this make you despair, these are issues we can fix! I'm sure we'll get this to GA. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 18:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , I've fixed one. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  18:41, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * For the other logo, it is due to the template and I think the best is to skip the templates use, and I usually dislike using it, unless it is something at the bottom of the article. I would however try to fix that logo as well for the sake of other articles ─  The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  18:43, 24 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all the assistance and help. I should make it clear that the book was banned and this is for what I had used the word "sued" in such manner. Can you just rephrase it in a more better way. Thanks. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  13:41, 25 July 2021 (UTC)