Talk:Jana Gana Mana/Archive 3

Transliteration citation
There is a note in the article saying that a citation is needed for the National Library of Kolkata transliteration. Do Wikipedia policies require transliterations to be cited? What sort of sources are acceptable on Wikipedia as sources to cite a transliteration? If someone can give me some guidance, I'll look for a source. -- Lexmercatoria 12:37, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

"FACT" included in Trivia is INCORRECT.
Please note, the fact included in the trivia section of this page is incorrect. It states, "Rabindranath Tagore is the only person whose poems have been adopted as the national anthem of more than one country." Enoch Sontonga is a South African, who wrote a poem that was chosen as the national anthem of both Zambia South Africa and Tanzania. I've altered the trivia fact to reflect this. (5amuel 11:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)).
 * Thanks for the correction! The point can perhaps be made that Tagore's two different poems have been adapted as national anthems of two countries, but the previous statement was incorrect as it stood. I wonder if we can even be certain that Tagore and Sontonga are the only persons with this distinction ?! Abecedare 11:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Jana gana mana, explain reversion and source
I was recently reverted by Ruebens, who quotes a source from The Tribune for the changes, which does not anywhere mention "Thou art the ruler" as the translation into English from Sanskrit. In my opinion, it is the word "adhinayak" which means "ruler" in Sanskrit, and although it is not a part of "Jana Gana Mana" (which legitimately means "The Minds of the People" in Sanskrit), there are some sources which say otherwise Indianchild.com, National-anthems.net. This one, in particular, from Hamiltoninstitute.com, gives a very accurate translation and includes "adhinayaka" as a part of the first phrase of the anthem. So can we have a general agreement to keep it is - "Thou art the ruler of the minds of All People". One more source: Sankalpindia.com. Thank you. -- Zamkudi Dhokla queen! 09:01, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Allright, I was taking a literal translation. But what you're reverts were doing is that it is also reverting the inclusion that the music is derived from a composition for the song by Ram Singh Thakur, which was my main emphasis and what I referenced. I think the current version is fine.Rueben lys 10:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The role of Ram Singh Thakur is not clear
I'm confused. The article states:

"The music for the current version is derived from a composition for the song by Ram Singh Thakur."

Does this mean that Ram Singh Thakur composed an arrangement (i.e. added accompanying parts for other voices or musical instruments) for Rabindranath Tagore's original melody? Or does it mean that Ram Singh Thakur wrote a completely new melody for Tagore's poem and that this new melody is the one that is sung and played today? Please can someone clarify this point. It's quite important. Thank you. 62.64.207.76 23:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * This refers to role of Ram Singh. He was a bandmaster in the Azad Hind Fauj (or so-called Indian National Army). When the Andaman Islands were captured by the Japanese, the highest ranking officer of British Army of that abandoned fortress was Major Bijeta Chaudhuri (who later became Lieut. General, O.B.E and Surgeon General of the modern Indian Armed forces) who elected to stay behind to look after his men - spurning an offer to leave with the British on the last boats out. At Changi prison camp (Singapore) he was repeatedly approached by Subhash Chandra Bose to join the Japanese side - which he spurned. Chaudhuri was from an ancient Brahmo Samaj lineage and was himself married into the Tagore clan (actually his wife - RNT's grand-niece was given away in marriage by RNT himself at Jorasanko in 1932) and knew the Jana Gana Mana well - and Bijeta Chaudhuri used this Bengali Brahmosangeet song to keep up the morale of his men. The song became so famous in Changi for Indian determination that it was stolen (adopted) by the INA also when it was clear that the Japanese were going to lose, and this song became a rallying point for all Indians (Greater Indians) in the final days of WW-II. Ram Singh Thakur had nothing to do with this song or it's music. Sroy1947 (talk) 15:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The original music was done by Rabindranath Tagore himself. I do not see why it would be someone named Ram Singh just because he played the song's rendition in his band? Well, when you play any Rabindra sangeet in band, it will sound different and that must not imply that the band has created a totally new music composition. I find the name of the music composer should be Rabindranath Tagore, not Ram Singh Thakur.


 * It is sad that you are confused about Capt Ram Singh Thakur. Composing the music to lyrics is about the tempo, the pitch and the arrangement. Rabindernath Tagore's original version was sung in Bengali and was materially different from the current version, which has some lines totally replaced. Additionally the version with music composed by RNT is sung at almost half the speed and to totally different instrumentation, tempo and pitch. The only similarity between the two renditions is that the lyrics are similar. The original version of the song was written by RNT as part of the celebration of George V's arrival to India and was also first performed on that occasion. The original song was not written as a patriotic song, but a song eulogising the British rule. The article is about the National Anthem of India and it's current form. This article is not about the Nobel Laureate or his achievements. The song was written for a purpose and evolved over the next 30 years, when a version was adopted by the INA, to a tune composed at a much faster tempo, by Ram Singh Thakur. The Calcutta Session of the Indian National Congress, where the song was first sung, on 27 December 1911 was held to welcome the Queen and King George V. The Indian National Congress in 1911 was a pro British party. The split was beginning to occur between the softliners, led by Gokhale and the hardliners led by Tilak, about that time. All the above are historically verifiable facts. 117.207.188.35 (talk) 20:15, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, most of your so called *historically verifiable facts* are nothing but controversial opinion pieces expressed by some fringe authors. Also, there's *no similarity* between the lyrics of the versions sang in 1911 and the one adopted by INA. In fact, both are *exactly the same*. To suggest that Jana Gana Mana has evolved over time is nothing but ridiculous. And to rest all the confusion about who composed the song, it was indeed Tagore, who had composed the music. Ram Singh merely played the same with accompaniment of a military band. Shovon (talk) 07:48, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Request for comments: Is the Bengali song a Hindi song?
Please go through the above discussion for detailed arguments. The song was and IS Bengali. Original and *exact* transcripts of the constituent assembly resolutions *DO NOT* mention any adoption of a "hindi version". Also, what exactly is a "Hindi version"?

My cards are on the table:


 * Please provide the exact line where the constituent assembly members mention that they are adopting a "hindi version" of a Bengali song.


 * Please explain to me what is exactly "Hindi version" of a Bengali song? Was any word changed? Was it translated to Hindi? Was the grammar changed? What is the difference between the written version of the song as written by Tagore, and the official written version of the song? (In case anyone claims pronunciation as a "translation", then would you support my claim that the English Wikipedia is written in "Bengali version" because I and some other Bengali speakers read the articles loud with a Bengali accent?)

Unless you can satisfactorily provide answers to the above questions, please do not keep pasting a "Hindi version". That Hindi is the national language or something like that of India is irrelevant: this is not the Hindi encyclopedia, so any other script than the song's original script is quite irrelevant. --Ragib 08:25, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

You are a perfect example of a chauvinist. Nobody argues that the original song Jan-Man-Gan was in Bengali, which has 5 stanzas, which is not our natinal anthem. If you are so ingorant read this from government of india website http://india.gov.in/knowindia/national_anthem.php For your information, "The song Jana-gana-mana, composed originally in Bengali by Rabindranath Tagore, was adopted in its Hindi version by the Constituent Assembly as the National Anthem of India on 24 January 1950." You should also know that only first stanza is the National Anthem of India. So get your fact straight and stop acting childish. Rabindranath Tagore was a great Indian, don't make him look small with your narrow minded stubborn behavior. My mother tongue is not Hindi and I don't consider hindi as our national language. But accept that Hindi one of the official language of the Governement of India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.198.138.110 (talk) 03:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow, somebody sure forgot to see wonderful wikipedia policies such as WP:NPA. :). For the other comments, see above and inside archives. --Ragib (talk) 04:01, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow, now you feel you are personally attacked ;-). May be you should go to the moderators to ban me because I am arguing your POV. Why don't you see the archives for any thing you want? I just replied to show how wrong your comments are. --Sandipani1 (talk) 16:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, you should really see the archives, where the "Arguments" in your comment were debunked. --Ragib (talk) 16:19, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I did not that you are the owner of the wikipedia, who can debunk all arguments against your POV.--Sandipani1 (talk) 16:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * No, but many editors before you raised the same red herring argument to claim the same thing, but failed awfully to produce a single transcript from the parliamentary commission to support their position. So, you need to see the discussion. I don't want to repeat that. --Ragib (talk) 16:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

And you went to the parliament and supreme court to get approved your version of the national anthem. And since you are the authorized from the government of India, you don't have to prove anything. Don't be an ignorant. Show me any government of India official document which which proves your POV. Here is the official references to prove my POV. http://www.whitehouse.gov/national-anthem/newdelhi-full.html http://india.gov.in/knowindia/national_anthem.php

--Sandipani1 (talk) 16:33, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The incorrectness of those links have been demonstrated here. Note that, the Indian Govt's own Constitutional assembly's detailed transcripts have more weight in this issue, and not the website. :) --Ragib (talk) 16:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Now you want to me read your original research :-). I guess someone forgot to read wikipedia's policy of "no original research". Why don't you show me the Govt's own constitutional assembly's detailed transcript? --Sandipani1 (talk) 16:43, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You are not making any sense here. The whole thing has been thoroughly discussed in the past, and I'm merely suggesting that you read that discussion first. Thank you. --Ragib (talk) 16:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh.. I did not know the government of India had formed a committe under your chairmanship to find a solution on this issue. With the help from your great colleaugues you have successfully found a panacea on the issue. The issue has been permanently ressolved and sealed in an ultra secure place. And now a punk like me comes from no where and raises doubt about your panacea. What a shame! And now I am not making any sense at all.

But I don't understant why it has become so difficult for an expert like you to give me a single official document which proves your POV. I don't think you are a new wikipedia member. Majority of people including me don't understand Bengali, and perhaps don't want to know either. It does not matter if the anthem sounds like Bengali or Hindi. Many Indian languages uses same words. For example "jal or jol" for water is not only a Bengali word. National anthem is not your poem and your don't have to so emotional. I gave your the references from govt of india's official website and also US govt website. Just give me some solid proof to prove me wrong. --Sandipani1 (talk) 17:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Once again, you are not making any sense here. The link to the archive I provided discusses the Constituent Assembly of India's transcript, i.e. the exact words of the resolution that adopted the song as the national anthem. A webmaster's unsupported claim does not supersede the actual resolution/govt decision. See the archive for details (solid, as requested). Finally, your claim about "Jal" / জল not being one of the Bengali words is entirely, completely, 100% incorrect. Thank you. --Ragib (talk) 17:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps anyone who contridicts your POV make no sense to you. In the archives I saw again and again your same rhetoric. It looks like you are on bench and promoting Bengali on wikipedia is your 24 hour job. The Constituent Assembly link is like question and asnwer session without any elaboration. If we go bye your arguments then the national anthem should have five stanzas and not one. Because the trascript does not say anything about the number of stanzas and the original song has five stanzas. And who authorize you to say the issue is ressolved. Someone of your thinking proposes something and then you accept the proposal. So with the agreement of 2-3 persons, the issue is solved permanently. And again by your argument, all the information on all government websites is webmasters personal claims and the government of India has no responsibility whatsover.

By writing "Jal" in Bengali does not make it a Bengali word. Probably you would claim Sanskrit is derived from Bengali and the word "jal" has come to Sanskrit and other languages from Bengali !! --Sandipani1 (talk) 20:26, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

And if you not satisfied with my previous discussion, here is another reference which support my POV. http://judis.nic.in/supremecourt/qrydisp.asp?tfnm=27027. Note that this is the judgement of supreme court on some matter (not language) related to national anthem. For your easy reference here is some part of the judgement.

The following is the transliteration i.e. the text of the National Anthem in Hindi:

"Jana-gana-mana-adhinayaka, jaya he Bharata-bhagya-vidhata. Punjab-Sindh-Gujarat-Maratha Dravida-Utkala-Banga Vindhya-Himachala-Yamuna-Ganga Uchchala-Jaladhi-taranga. Tava shubha name jage, Tava shubha asisa mange, Gahe tava jaya gatha, Jana-gana-mangala-dayaka jaya he Bharata-bhagya-vidhata. Jaya he, jaya he, jaya he Jaya jaya jaya, jaya he!" (Source __ India 2004, A Reference Annual, published by Publications Division, Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, Government of India, p.22)

Now don't tell me the supreme court is making unsupported claims. I observed, you have just playing around with your theories like if A is B and B is C. I suggest you to stop being childish and show at least one  official document which says the Indian National Anthem is in Bengali. --Sandipani1 (talk) 21:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, you have not really shown the original text of the transcript, so let me quote this below:


 * ''The composition consisting of the words and music known as Jana Gana Mana is the National Anthem of India, subject to such alterations in the

words as the Government may authorise as occasion arises; and the song Vande Mataram, which has played a historic part in the struggle for Indian freedom, shall be honoured equally with Jana Gana Mana and shall have equal status with it. I hope this will satisfy the Members." ___Constituent Assembly Debates, XII. (24th January, 1950)''


 * After the Constitution had been signed by all the members of the Assembly, the President, on the request of Shri M. Ananthasayanam Ayyangar permitted all members of the House to sing Jana Gana Mana in chorus. Then led by Shrimati Purnima Banerji all of them sang it in chorus for the first time after its formal adoption as our National Anthem.

This is from the exact link you provided.


 * Now, where do we see the text "adopted in hindi version"?
 * Where, except for the website, do we find mention of a hindi version being adopted? The original transcript of the assembly, as shown above, mentions adoption, but no reference to the "hindi version"
 * What exactly is the "Hindi version" of a "Bengali song"? Any words have been changed? And how what Hindi grammar would consider "Tava shubha name jage, Tava shubha asisa mange, Gahe tava jaya gatha," as a grammatically valid Hindi sentence? The sentence as written by Tagore is a valid Bengali sentence, but NOT at all grammatically correct Hindi sentence. That some words are common to Hindi does not make it a Hindi song.

So, please provide me the reference to the official decision that says, Mr. So and So/Committee so and so/parliament so and so decided to adopt the Bengali song in its Hindi version (unless you claim the webmaster of the Indian govt website adopted it :D) ... the case will be closed finally. Your own reference does not mention anything. Also, please explain what "Hindi version" of a "Bengali song" means :).

(You've broken 3RR (counting your anonymous edits from Univ of Vermont's IP). --Ragib (talk) 02:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

National anthem is not an essay, you don't have to talk a lot about its grammer. I am surprised to see that you are not aware of "no original research" in wikipedia. For me the sentence you mentioned look like Gujarathi. The national anthem is full of Saskrit words which fits well with almost any Indian language. I really don't care, but I even doubt if the original song was in Bengali.

Now your judgement is that I broke 3RR. May be you should ban me now. You should spend more time on tracking IP addresses of the machines from which you propaganda is argued.

To be frank, I am not so emotional about hindi. The thing which bothering me is that you are turning the national anthem into a Bengali peom with your "Jon Mon Gon" stuff. If you are honest, try to understand this proposal. English is one of the official languages of the Government of India (Bengali is not). The article is on english wikipedi (not Bengali wikepedia). So there is no necessity of including the text in any other scripts if we get the government of India text of national anthem in roman script. Lets just include the roman text approved by the government of India. I will try to provide "the text" approved by the government of India.--Sandipani1 (talk) 17:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The anon IP address 132.198.138.110 is public information, and just cliking on the whois link on the contribution page shows that it is from U of Vermont. So, there is no "tracking down" here.


 * The question about what the national language of India is is quite irrelevant here. The question is what the language of the song is, and it is, and has always been Bengali. Spreading misinformation is not ok.


 * My comment about the grammar is also quite relevant, under what justification do you claim "Hindi version" here? Looking at Tagore's writeups, I don't see any structural or grammatical changes to his original Bengali poem/song here. No translation has occurred, apparently. "I even doubt if the original song was in Bengali." ha ha ha, so was Tagore writing in "Martian language" all along :)? Do you also doubt that Tagore was a Bengali poet ...? :)


 * As for the usage of Bengali script, it has been the convention in English wikipedia to provide the original native script for non-English poems. Check out Saare Jahan Se Acchha. You have broken 3RR, and I'll report you shortly. --Ragib (talk) 17:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I did not say you are a member of CIA and your are tracking me :-). The IP address is visible but not the location, you need to track the IP address (which is ofcourse possible to everyone). Your problem is you are a narrow minded  person and you are not able to associate national anthem to a country. Why don't you write an article with title "Jona Gona Mona" and write whatever shit you want? You know, no body will care about that title, because that is not India's national anthem.

I am already familiar with your knowledge about languages when you wrote the word "jal" in bengali screamed like hell when I was trying to say it is a sanskrit word and almost all indian languages use that word. And you should read wikipedia policiy of no original research. We have enough information from government of india about national anthem.

Being Tagore a bengali does not give you authority to associate everything regarding him to bengali. I am surprised that you don't believe the government of india scrip of national anthem is not correct. I am really afraid, what the content of wikipedia will look like if narrow minded people like keep making edits 24 hours a day to wikipedia.

And by the way, no government body has any official script of Sare janhashe achha. It has nothing to do with a national anthem. You don't understand the difference between a national anthem and any ordinary song. --Sandipani1 (talk) 17:04, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sigh, I hoped you will refrain from launching personal attacks once your block is over and you return!! Perhaps focusing on articles rather than other users is a better option for you than calling names :(


 * Sure, many languages in South ASia that are derived partially from Sanskrit share many words. What matters here is the grammar and sentence construction. Just because you find common words used in a sentence doesn't make the sentence belong to your language of choice ... the grammar matters, and under no Hindi grammar can you make JGM a valid poem/sentence.


 * Tagore's writeup is in BEngali (And some in English translation of his own work). Please show which work was authored by Tagore in Hindi/Urdu/Martian language etc. As for your claim of Govt sources, please see below. That it is your national anthem may be of supreme importance to you, but wikipedia is not an Indian website, it is an encyclopedia.


 * Finally, please read the comment written about Saare ...Acchha. Original scripts are commonly provided for non-English work of literature. --Ragib (talk) 18:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

As for your IP address/location, please check out the contribution page of your IP. It provides links to show the geolocation, and one does not need to do much other than click on the whois link there. This is routinely done for disruptive anon users. --Ragib (talk) 18:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break
Once again, I repeat the following points:


 * The decision to adopt anything as the national anthem of India was taken by a legislative body ... from the records, it seems that that body is the constituent assembly of India . Please provide the exact line where the constituent assembly members mention that they are adopting a "hindi version" of a Bengali song. From the official transcripts, I cannot see any mention of "Hindi version" there ... quoting from the text: The composition consisting of the words and music known as Jana Gana Mana is the National Anthem of India, subject to such alterations in the words as the Government may authorise as occasion arises; and the song Vande Mataram, which has played a historic part in the struggle for Indian freedom, shall be honoured equally with Jana Gana Mana and shall have equal status with it. (Applause). I hope this will satisfy the Members.. The song was and is written in Bengali language (words, grammar etc., so unless it is specifically mentioned by the legislative body, speculating about any "hindi version" is incorrect. If the constituent assembly didn't mention the hindi version, but some other parliamentary body did, please provide that. Otherwise, just because "you think so","everyone thinks so", the webmaster of a site "thinks so", has no legal value.


 * Please explain to me what is exactly "Hindi version" of a Bengali song? Was any word changed? Was it translated to Hindi? Was the grammar changed? What is the difference between the written version of the song as written by Tagore, and the official written version of the song? The song was originally written in Bengali (no doubt about that per multiple sources), so what grammatical changes/translation has occured since then? (In case anyone claims pronunciation as a "translation", then would you support my claim that the English Wikipedia is written in "Bengali version" because I and some other Bengali speakers read the articles loud with a Bengali accent?)

--Ragib (talk) 18:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The INA version
Would it be worthwhile adding a mention of the fact that Subhas Chandra Bose prepared a Hindi / Hindustani translation of this song in connection with the proclamation of Azad Hind? Not many people know about now, so it probably wouldn't qualify an article of its own, but it seems to me that the translation and its use by the INA was a notable event in the history of Jana Gana Mana, and probably merits a sentence or two in this article. -- Arvind 13:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. -- Yoshiroshin 04:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Read Subh Sukh Chain.
 * Yeah, I know about this... I was fighting a poor battle in my heydays at WP about the Hindi version (which obviously was non-sensical as Ragib has pointed out!). But recently I read an article about the INA version (Hindustani version) in a local mag and I realized that it was probably this version... blah blah...blah (sorry, forgot what I was trying to prove...SAS)


 * I know this is an old discussion, but wanted to point out that there is indeed a Hindi version of this song which is *not* the INA version. Wonder why even entertaining such a thought is considered non-sensical. Many words were replaced by their Hindi counterparts and other changes made, e.g. replacing Maratha with Maharashtra, "jaya he" with "jaya ho", "tava shubha naam" to "tere shubha naam" etc. I understand this was commissioned by the folks at AIR. The recording should be available in various AIR archives. The copy I have includes 4 verses instead of 5. Of course, now we know that the official version did indeed preserve the original words, but I am amazed that people outright reject ideas if they don't fit their beliefs. Bmurthy (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:48, 20 May 2010 (UTC).
 * I think they are referring to Subh Sukh Chain, the version prepared for INA on Netaji's behest. SASSOTO (talk) 02:27, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, they are, but if you look harder, there is also a reference to the (earlier) discussion of whether a Hindi version of the song ever existed. The "Bengali only" camp argues there wasn't, and asserts it is a laughable/non-sensical to even think of such a possibility. I actually have in my possession a copy of the said Hindi version. That is all!!! Bmurthy (talk) 23:39, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Punjab and Sindh
While Punjab and Sindh were parts of India when Tagore wrote the poem, but to Indians they would refer to the states of Punjab and parts of Gujarat and Rajasthan. Linking the name of a region in the Indian national anthem to a Pakistani province just seems wrong. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 17:52, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree. I can see how "Punjab" can refer to both the region (including both the Pakistani and Indian states) and the Indian state itself, but I really don't see how people would reinterpret Tagore's mention of "Sindh" to be a reference to slivers of land in Gujarat and Rajasthan. The song was written well before the current boundaries, so we can't pretend that all the regions referred to are found solely within the modern state of India. The song wasn't written for modern-day India, but for the greater India (which existed then). If West Bengal decided to declare independence, that doesn't mean that we have to reinterpret Tagore's "Banga" as being "Bihar" or "Assam". The song is what it is, and there's no reason for us to change the meaning just because of what has happened in history since the song was written. --SameerKhan (talk) 20:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there is a need for linking any word from the song, and create more confusion. Tagore was referring to pre-partition British Indian regions, which may not be part of India anymore. It will be incorrect to "re-interpret" his words and link to wrong areas. --Ragib (talk) 20:17, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess this works. The national anthem has to have meaning. Is it then to be left to individual Indians to interpret these words ? One thing is clear, Sindh in this song should not link to the Pakistani province. This isnt any personal agenda, just that linking to a region that isnt even in India defies geography. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 01:09, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Second part of anthem
It looks like anthem of India has second part:




 * Day and night thy call spreads over the land


 * And we hear thy voice of salvation,


 * Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains,


 * Parsees, Muslims and Christians


 * Come from East and West to the foot thy throne,


 * Singing their song of devotion to thee.


 * Oh glory to thee, who unites our hearts and gives us good fortune!


 * Hail, hail, hail to thee for ever!

Q) Why it isn't showed in the article? A) Because this is not part of the national anthem :) Regards, Iliassh (talk) 04:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

NLK edit by 89.203.64.123
The history page doesn't give any kind of reason as to why this was changed. While I don't speak any of the languages, I can tell just by listening that they lyrics as transliterated don't match what's actually in the song. 141.202.248.52 (talk) 18:17, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Jana Gana Mana or Indian National Anthem
This article seems to be confusing the two chief entities, the poem Jana Gana Mana by Tagore and the Indian National anthem, which is only the first stanza of the said poem. While they are related, they are not the same. As it appears this is a mess and doesn't adequately do justice to either.

Ideally, there would be two articles, one for the poem itself (which has its own historical significance), it's genesis, history, complete lyrics (all 5 stanzas), any controversies etc. The second article would be specific about the National anthem, including adoption of a portion of Jana Gana Mana as the National anthem, any other songs/compositions so considered and controversies/issues thereof, official lyrics (including regional variants, if any), official playing time etc, available recordings etc.

My two cents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmurthy (talk • contribs) 21:24, 14 December 2009 (UTC) Bmurthy (talk) 21:27, 14 December 2009 (UTC)Balaji
 * I agree that there are differences, but the fact the poem is notable mainly for being the national anthem, two articles would be rather redundant.  Bʌsʌwʌʟʌ   Speak up!  21:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact that Jana-Gana-Mana is the national anthem is not irrevelant, however, it has its history before being adopted as the national anthem. That history includes the fact of it being a full poem with 5 stanzas and its own other newsworthy issues. As it is, the issue is completely muddled in this article and there is place for the original complete poem to have its own full article. The national anthem aspect is deserving its own article too. Bmurthy (talk) 01:23, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the article has muddled the distinction between Jana-Gana-Mana the national anthem and Jana-Gana-Mana the poem. The primary focus of the article should be on the Indian National Anthem (its history, selection, rule/formality of playing, etc). I don't think the poem Jana Gana Mana merits its own article as opposed to any of Thagore's other works (Its primary distinction compared to his other works is as the National Anthem). All in all, this article needs a through revision especially reducing that gigantic discussion on controversies. I have a limited schedule; but if anyone is willing to help me with fact checking, I would be glad to work on it. JNG71886 (talk) 19:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Revising the Page
There are many years worth of edits and changes in this article. The many discussions drown out the main focus of the article, while the multiple edits make the page appear disjuncted. Over the next week I am going to work on revising the article to make the primary focus on the National Anthem and to make the writing more clear, consistent and concise. JNG71886 (talk) 20:04, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of organizing it as such: 1)Intro, 2)Lyrics (of national anthem provided by the Gov't of India), 3) Rules and Decorum for Playing, 4)History/Selection as national anthem, 6)lyrics of Original (all 5 stanzas), 7)Controversies.
 * I would greatly appreciate help with this. JNG71886 (talk) 20:10, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I hadn't taken a look at this page in sometime, and it has really gone to seeds in the meantime. I have reverted some recent edits that added a lot of unsourced and undue information and made the controversy section unduly argumentative, and non-compliant with both encyclopedic tone and wikipedia namual of style. It is possible though that my revert removed some pieces of information that can be properly sourced and may be worth retaining. So for convenience, here is the diff of my revert, which can be reviewed to see if anything should be re-added to the article.
 * I like your proposed organization of the page, except:
 * I don't think the lyrics of the complete poem are needed at all. Firstly because, as you rightly note, this article is on India's national anthem and not the poem per se, and secondly, because we are writing an encyclopedic entry about the anthem, and not an anthological source containing the anthem. Frankly, the article need not even quote the complete anthem itself; however, given that the article is pretty short, we can be flexible and leave it in. The complete poem can be added to wikisource and linked from the external links section.
 * Ideally, we wouldn't have a Controversies section at all, and would instead integrate its content into the main body of the article. However, I realize that this may require greater thought and effort than we may be able to devote at present, so fixing this should not stand in the way of improving the overall article.
 * I too am a bit short of on-wikipedia time at the moment, but if you take the lead I'll try to chip in (and/or, chime in) around the edges. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 02:15, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry I haven't produced an article yet. I am currently studying for board exams. I'll get back to working on the article after I take the exams, some time in late June. JNG71886 (talk) 21:03, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Controversies & remaining 4 stanzas
@JNG71886 SASSOTO (talk) 10:08, 11 May 2010 (UTC)SASSOTO Hi! This is in reference to your appreciation of my additions on the Jana Gana Mana article. Thanks for it. The points raised by you were: 1> The article has become too long because of my additions

2> More than half of it is dedicated to controversies

3> Citations required for the remaining 4 stanzas

My answers: First of all, I see that u have reverted all the changes I have made. Well, you could have done it 'after' coming up with your own refined version or accepting my concise version. 1> There are longer articles in Wikipedia and leaving apart the controversy, the translations of the remaining 4 stanzas could have very well been included even in this article. Length restriction may be your personal opinion. On the other hand, I can assure that this information is very much searched for in the Internet and this is the best platform to impart this knowledge under this section itself so that people can understand the complete flow of the poem and its relevance as the Indian National Anthem. Wikipedia and this article is the first place they land and they should feel that their knowledge has been enhanced or brushed up. So please keep those stanzas there itself.

2> The version of controversies that was present in your version of the article was incomplete in some aspects. for e.g., you have quoted the British Indian press but not the nationalist Indian press which clearly differentiated between Tagore's poem not being sung for King George V. This has misguided many patriotic Indians who have recently learnt to disrespect Jana Gana Mana because of this controversy. Wikipedia's NPOV policy encouraged me to put the facts (with citations) of the other side too. If they outweighed the original controversy making it seem irrelevant, then it should not be said that this article is not 'neutral' because I did not tamper with the original contents and sources in favor of the controversy. You are right in saying that this section can have a page of its own. I would have come with a concise version of the controversy but sadly, anything I shorten will tilt the scales on one side or the other.

3> Translation for the first stanza was provided by Tagore himself and for the remaining 4 stanzas, every word is a Bengali to English translation and not an 'interpretation' by an individual. Still I have mentioned the person who first translated it.


 * "I see that u have reverted all the changes I have made." --- Before accusing me of deleting you contributions, I would recommend that you calm down and check the history feed. I did not revert anything that you wrote. Many people edit Wikipedia articles, and someone else made the revisions. I wrote to you with my concerns, because I felt that it would be rude to just delete your work. Let us not fight.
 * As for the message I sent you, many people (me included) contribute their two cents to an article without looking at the whole article. This builds up over time and articles loose focus. I just wanted to clean up the article, and I was looking for people to help me do that. That is why I wrote you. I would appreciate your help; and if you want to, see the immediately preceding discussions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JNG71886 (talk • contribs) 00:58, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Hindi
This is an issue with several articles on people or material of Bengali origin on Wikipedia. Though Jana Gana Mana is in Bengali, it is the national anthem of the Republic of India (and not the state of Bengal). It is completely unreasonable to not have its transliteration shown in Hindi, the principal official language of the Indian Union. Bengali is only one among several regional official languages of India. Since the anthem is in Bengali, it is ok to show the Bengali script, but lack of Hindi transliteration is conspicuous bias. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and should exhibit objectivity, instead of being used by certain elements to advance their egoistic attitude and personal interests. In the interest of neutrality and authenticity of material exhibited on Wikipedia, I would like to start a debate on this issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apalaria (talk • contribs) 05:07, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * First of all, it is patently ridiculous to transliterate a song in a different script just to appease everyone in India. Tagore did not write the song in Hindi, and writing the song in Devnagari script is the same as writing it in latin alphabet -- it does not make any sense. Next, Bengali and Hindi has *same* constitutional status in India. If you would claim any special status for Hindi, please come up with a reference for that. If in Hindi script, why not in Tamil script? You wrote about "neutrality" ... what neutrality do we gain by writing a song in a script used in a different language? None!! Of course, rather than dismissing you directly, I would like to hear what arguments you have regarding inclusion of the song lyrics in Devanagari script (one not used to write Bengali -- the language of the song). (Don't start saying "India prefers Hindi" ... Hindi is just one of the 20+ national languages of India, having same constitutional status as the other 19+ languages). --Ragib (talk) 05:15, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Ragib, please go and look up the page on the official language of India. You will then see why I brought up this issue. Everyone is aware that Tagore did not write the song in Hindi. But it was always used in the Devnagari transliteration, whether during the Freedom struggle or later when it was adopted as the National Anthem. Tamil script was never used! I think your arguments are rather ridiculous! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apalaria (talk • contribs) 05:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

By the way, the national argument apart, in this case, the Devnagari transliteration is necessitated also by the sheer fact that the language Tagore used is highly Sanskritized! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apalaria (talk • contribs) 05:37, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I asked a simple question: why do we need to write the text of a poem in the script of a different language? Since Wikipedia is not an Indian government website, you need to provide objective arguments to answer my question. This is the *English* Wikipedia, so at best we can include the native language script of the poem. India does not have a "national language", but even if it did, you cannot justify that to use Devanagari script for the poem's text here. "it was always used in the Devnagari transliteration" -- what does that even mean? If a Tamil speaker wants to write the text of the poem in a Tamil newspaper, he would use the Devanagari transliteration rather than the Tamil one? :) Anyway, you have not answered my question ... why should we include the Devanagari script when the song was clearly not written in a language that uses the Devanagari script!! Unless you answer that question, continuing this discussion is pointless. Regards. --Ragib (talk) 05:44, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * By the way, the national argument apart, in this case, the Devnagari transliteration is necessitated also by the sheer fact that the language Tagore used is highly Sanskritized! -- A large portion of Bengali (and any other north Indian language) words originate from Sanskrit, but that by itself does not mean we need to use Devanagari for all such words, when that language has its own script. And the song is written in pure Bengali, as is Tagore's other songs/poems/novels. Your argument is akin to claiming that we must use Latin script for English language songs (such as God Save the Queen), just because some words of the song originated from Latin!! :) --Ragib (talk) 05:44, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I have very clearly answered your question. Unfortunately, you don't want to accept it. Hindi, though originating in North India, is the official language of the Indian Union. Don't tell me it is one of the several constitutional languages. It is the only Indian origin official language of the Indian Union. All other Indian languages are official languages of the various states/regions. Similarly, "Jana Gana Mana", though it was originally written in Bengali, is the national anthem of the Indian Union. I clearly see the connection. In fact, I argue that the only transliteration shown here should be Devnagari, but given that the song is originally in Bengali, out of respect, we can allow the Bengali script. If you still have problem, what can I say... let the debate roll on! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.120.115.92 (talk) 05:56, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

A Tamil newspaper will not use the Bengali transliteration either ;-) And this is not the anthem of Tamil Nadu! At a national level, the official language of the Union should be used and not that of a single state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.120.115.92 (talk) 06:04, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * You are still providing circular arguments. Let's take a step back.


 * 1. Is the song written in Hindi? (Yes/No)?
 * 2. Is the song written in Bengali? (Yes/No)?


 * The answers of the above are, NO, and YES, respectively. Then there is simply no reason why we need to include Devanagari script in the English language Wikipedia. Of course, it is fine to use Devanagari in the Hindi Wikipedia to show the transliteration of the song in that script (just as English language transliteration is shown here). But this is the *English* language wikipedia, (not funded or operated by the Indian govt or under Indian jurisdiction). At best, we can include Bengali script to show the original script of the song. But including Devanagari is entirely redundant since a) the song was not written in that language b) this is the English language wikipedia. Does not matter *at all* what language is used at "national level" in India (though I disagree with that claim as well ... other than office use, Hindi has no "Extra" privilege in Indian constitution, but that is orthogonal to this discussion.).


 * So, again, please provide an (non-nationalistic) argument about the use of a non-native-language script for the lyrics of a poem (other than "it will please Hindi speaking Indians/Hindi speaking Indian govt officials"). Regards. --Ragib (talk) 06:14, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

One doesn't need to provide a 'non-nationalistic' argument for a debate of national importance. I should rather ask you to provide a "non-Bengalistic" argument for not including the transliteration of the national anthem in the official language of the nation. (Regarding the status of Hindi... man! you need to brush up your basics! Please read the Constitution of India!). I am adding the Hindi transliteration. I think it is a must! If that goes, so does the Bengali. -apalaria —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apalaria (talk • contribs) 07:37, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * You are still sidestepping the question. Please do not launch personal attacks. It is much easier to answer my questions about *why* we need to include the Devanagari script given that, a) the song was written in Bengali which has its own script b) this is the *English* language wikipedia, and hosted in a site not under Indian government management.


 * I have in fact read the relevant section of the Indian constitution, and no where does it mention that a Bengali language song must be written in Hindi / Devnagari script. If you can enlighten me with the appropriate section about using non-native script (Devanagari) for anything related to India, that will be great. However, that discussion is irrelevant given that this site is not an Indian govt. site. :). If you forcefully add Devanagari script without providing an argument justifying its inclusion, I will remove it. Thank you. --Ragib (talk) 07:44, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The question has not been sidestepped and more than enough argument has been provided above! I will remove the Bengali transliteration if you remove the Hindi transliteration. Why do we need the Bengali transliteration there anyway?? This is an English website!--Apalaria (talk) 07:48, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, then, *Answer me*, at least once. For your convenience, here is the question again: why do we need to write the text of a poem in the script of a different language? . What the Indian govt. enforces in India is not applicable to Wikipedia. We need Bengali transliterations for the simple reason that the song *is* written in Bengali, and it is common practice in English wikipedia to include the original language script for non-English work. If you blank the Bengali transliteration, I will report you to the admins for vandalism. Thank you. --Ragib (talk) 07:53, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I have answered you several times. The transliteration is required because it is common practice in Wikipedia to include the official language script for the national symbols. It provides a face for the topic to readers who are not aware of it. If this was being read only by the Indians, or people aware of the internal dynamics of India, I wouldn't have minded. But this is a source of knowledge for all. As I already said, if the Hindi transliteration is blanked, I will blank the Bengali transliteration because Bengali is not the official language of India (not even spoken by more than a handful!). Also, for your kind information (since you appear to be highly ignorant of the actual political science of India), the words of the song are themselves open to modification at the discretion of the Indian government (forget the Bengali!). Please do not write something on Wikipedia without proper knowledge. This is a source of knowledge and information for all and should not be vandalised by people for their personal interests. Now I will talk to you later.--Apalaria (talk) 08:07, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, Bengali *is* an officially recognized language according to the 8th schedule of the Constitution of India. So, including that is enough. The original script provides "a face for the topic to readers who are not aware of it".


 * You are making a ridiculous claim that you will remove the native script of a poem just because a non-native script is not included. I will highly recommend that you refrain from making personal attacks on other users, as you have made in the above comment. "The words are open to modification" ... :), well, that is pure speculation in your part, and no such modification exists according to the constitution of India. (and you can't change what Tagore wrote ... can you? unless you bring up his spirit to authorize a rewrite!!). Anyway, if you continue further personal attacks, you will be reported, and any blanking of the original text of the poem will also be reported. You have provided exactly zero reasons of inclusion of Hindi/Devanagari script (completely unrelated to the original language of the poem), so unless you come up with a *real* answer to my question, the Devanagari script should not be included here. --Ragib (talk) 08:14, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The "real" reason has been provided above. Rather, I should be asking you for the "real" reason of not representing the national anthem of India in the official language of India, even when it is a common practice on Wikipedia. Could you tell me? Bengali is only a regional official language of India and, as I already mentioned, not even spoken by more than a handful in India. Also, please go and read the clauses related to the National Anthem of India before writing anything on Wikipedia. I am not the one going to change the national anthem of India, but the Indian government will, if they so wish. Whether they perform seances for it does not interest me. Enough said on this matter. Also, you are the one making personal attacks. To me, your arguments here are casting serious doubt about your authenticity as a Wikipedia contributor. If you remove the Devnagari transliteration, you will be reported for incomplete and falsified information. --Apalaria (talk) 08:29, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Again you refuse to answer my original question. You make it very difficult to continue this conversation ... rather than hand waving on what the Indian govt thinks, why not provide a justification of using script from a different language for this song? So far, your only replies have been "the Indian constitution says so" (it doesn't) or "Indians like it" (do all?) or "common practice in India" (why do we in the English wikipedia care?). Why does it matter whether only 10% of Indians speak Bengali ... the song *is written in Bengali*, and that's what matters. 100% Indians can speak in Hindi, but that won't change the fact that the song is written in Bengali language by a Bengali author. As for personal attacks, I would dare you to come up with a diff that shows anything :). Good luck finding one. ("falsified" what? Are you claiming that Tagore wasn't even a Bengali-language writer and I falsely claimed that? LOL). Nothing further ... unless you can come up with a logically coherent argument. Regards. --Ragib (talk) 09:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Dear Apalaria please don't try to add Devanagari script. And don't make any personal attack.My opinion is very much equal with Ragib' opinion. The "Janan Gana Mana" english transliteration and bengali is enought for this article. Because this is English wikipedia and Tagore wrote that in native Bengali language. In India, there is no "national language". If every one try add their own language, this is not well for this article. ( I repeat that qusestions why do we need to write the text of a poem in the script of a different language?).- Jayanta Nath (Talk 09:55, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Dear Jayanta Nath, at no point have I contested the fact that the poem is in Bengali. However, the use of only Bengali, which is only a regional official language to represent the National Anthem of India is completely inappropriate and hegemonistic. I have again and again repeated that the status of Hindi as the official language of the Indian Union necessitates transliteration of the anthem, which is a national symbol and not a symbol of Bengali pride, in that script. If people try to use Wikipedia to assert their personal egos and regional pride, it will lead to suppression of proper information. I hold no personal grudge against you or Bengali to launch any personal attacks (else I would have gone on to include Devnagari script for the anthem of Bangladesh as well), but manipulation of information on Wikipedia smells of serious sabotage of knowledge in the information era. Also since I am not blanking the Bengali transliteration, the only reason for not including the Devnagari script (which, I repeat, is the only official script of Indian origin for the Indian Union) could be personal ego. Please don't try to blank Devanagari script. --Apalaria (talk) 14:57, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

So, Apalaria, you are claiming that anything related to India must have a Devanagari script associated with it, even if the work is not in a language using the script? What is the justification? For example, do you also claim that we need to include the Devanagari script in Tolkāppiyam? That is a very ambitious claim. You are also repeatedly making personal attacks against other user, I'm warning you against that as well. Your ad hominem attacks on other users is regrettable, and I hope you will refrain from them (this is the last warning on that). The issue of pride is your personal view ... we are trying to have a decent discussion here in which you are not really participating. Please answer my question about why anything related to India in English Wikipedia (which is, once again, not an Indian website) must have Devanagari script in it. My view is clear: the song is written in Bengali, and at most we can include Bengali script. Since English wikipedia is not written to appease any particular Government, and readers are already given the information in native script of the song, including any different language is redundant and POV. You need to provide a logically coherent argument in support of your claim (and NOT make personal attacks on other users while replying). --Ragib (talk) 15:16, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

You are also breaking 3 revert rule by repeatedly inserting Devanagari script despite consensus among other editors not to do so. --Ragib (talk) 15:24, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

My arguments above have been rather coherent. I am sure people with reasoning powers can clearly see my point. For your sake, I will repeat it once and last: 1. The Bengali song Jana Gana Mana is the national anthem of the Indian Union and a symbol of national pride for the country. 2. Hindi is the official Indian language of the Indian Union. 3. Devnagari is the script the song is reported in, in all official documents of the Indian Union. 4. According to norm, matters of national pride are reported in official languages. Put 1-4 together and we have the reason for including the Devnagari transliteration. The suggestion that I would want Tolkāppiyam transliterated in Devnagari is ludicrous. It is not a work of any national importance in India. Note that Jana Gana Mana is not ANY Bengali poem. If it were, I wouldn't care less for anything than transliterate it in Devnagari. I think you fail to see the clear difference here. This is the national anthem, and all matters of national pride and all national symbols are represented in the official language, take any country in the world or take even the UN. Bengali may be the original script in which it was written, Devnagari is the script it is reported in, in all official documents of the Indian Union. So, as also is the norm, it is only natural that it be transliterated in Devnagari when presenting it to Wikipedia readers. Not doing so is intelligently misleading readers and hiding information. Regarding your argument on what can be done "most", let the Wikipedia management tell us that the most they can allow is one transliteration. --Apalaria (talk) 15:45, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Regarding 3, once again, this is not an Indian government website, so Wikipedia is not bound to use any Indian govt policy. "Devanagari is the script in which the song is reported" ... do you want me to believe that any time the song is mentioned in, say, an English or Tamil newspaper in India, they use the Devanagari script to write its name? I claim that your statement about this is false. "matters of national pride are reported in official languages. ", well we are using a nationally "recognized" language here (Bengali, which has equal status as Hindi), so that requirement is already fulfilled. There is no misleading the readers, since the readers already get to see the actual script of the song. Once again, this is not a Indian govt funded website that we need to appease Hindi speakers by including an unrelated script. --Ragib (talk) 15:56, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Also, please do not keep reverting to your version without reaching a consensus here. Thanks. --Ragib (talk) 15:58, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Ragib. Keep the Bengali (the original language) and since this is the English version of wikipedia, a translation into English. The arguments put forth for inserting a Devnagari version into the english wikipedia - a] national pride and b] Hindi is official language are irrelevant to this encyclopedia. A Hindi version in Devnagari would be appropriate for the hindi wikipedia. http://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.104.175 (talk) 02:52, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Apalaria, can you provide a valid reason for including Devanagari script? Your argument on official languages do not hold any water. Even, the Govt. of India website does not say anything about the Devangari script or Hindi language, in its description of the National Anthem of India. As for your contention that Hindi is the only recognized official language of India, again the Govt. of India website confirms that its not mandatory to use Hindi in the states outside the "cow belt". So, even going by your logic, there's nothing to suggest that Devanagari script should be included in this article. Shovon (talk) 18:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Hello Shovon, It is time to report this matter to Wikipedia authorities. This has become a fight between free knowledge and its manipulation by biased men. As regards your argument about Hindi, anyone can go to the wiki page on the language of India and see that its wrong (luckily that page has not been, at least as of now, tampered with by biased editors). Hindi is the primary official language of the Republic of India. That specific regions have been granted the freedom to officiate in a constitutional language of their choice does not take away from the status of Hindi. Bengali is ONLY a regional official language and one among several "constitutional languages" of India. If you wish to exhibit only Bengali script on the Jana Gana Mana page then I have another idea. Start a different page on the "National Anthem of India" and show it in Hindi (and no Bengali) there. On this page, you can refer to Jana Gana Mana as a Bengali poem by Tagore, which also happens to be the national anthem of India. But not having Hindi on the page on National Anthem of India is completely unacceptable. This is Wikipedia and not someone's personal property. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apalaria (talk • contribs) 14:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Once again, this is *NOT* an Indian govt website that your waving the constitution works (even though you are wrong about that too). The song is written in Bengali (which is one of the major languages spoken by 10 million people in India (i.e. 10% of population), so the use of the Bengali script is quite justified in showing both the song's original language as well as local usage. I urge you to stop reverting the page repeatedly without providing any solid reasons (other than "this is from India, so must be in Hindi"). --Ragib (talk) 15:11, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Again, I urge you to stop inserting Hindi script here without providing a solid reason. (to remind you 1. The song is written in Bengali language in Bengali script (and NOT in Hindi language or in Devanagari script) 2. This is not a Indian govt website, and even then the Govt provides recognition of Bengali in the constitution)). I am not going to revert it again, and I urge you to do the same till you can present some valid reason behind your edits. Thanks. --Ragib (talk) 15:24, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

"This is from India, so must be in Hindi" - finally you get the point! That is the very reason. I don't have to argue about the status of languages. That is common knowledge to those who are unbiased. And your argument about the government of India is ridiculous!! Why don't you do one thing? By your argument, since this is not the Indian government website, why don't you list the name of the Chief Minister of Bengal on the page on the Prime Minister of India, or the Governor of Bengal on the page of the President of India! --Apalaria (talk) 15:27, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Hah!! So, you finally admit that your argument is simply tagging everything from India with Hindi language script, even if the topic isn't distantly related to that language? That argument is baseless. What significance does Hindi have in an article on a poem/song written in a completely different language? None. So, unless you have any other arguments beside this non-argument, please don't keep reinserting Hindi script here. --Ragib (talk) 15:32, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Everything from India does not have to be tagged with Hindi, but the national anthem has to be. --Apalaria (talk) 11:18, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Pleas STOP your disruptive edits. You have been given enough opportunities to justify your case, but you have not been able to come up with a logical response. It doesn't matter at all what your opinion is, unless, you can justify it with logic. The facts are - a) "Jana Gana Mana" is our national anthem, b) It was written in Bengali, c) This IS English language wikipedia and NOT an Indian governmental site. Even by your logic, I can add one more point - d) No where, it is written that, "Jana Gana Mana, in Devanagari alphabet, has been selected as the national anthem of India". So, please stop your edit warring. Shovon (talk) 12:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Could we play our national anthem in an enclosed area(like auditorium,multiplex)?
I am not sure about that and I didn't get any specific information on thant. So please put some light on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.246.57.2 (talk) 08:05, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. Read the code of conduct section and the reference of govt. of India mentioned in superscript SASSOTO (talk) 08:28, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Jana Gana Mana-The Complete Song and controversies require a new article.
Dear fellow Wikipedians,I do not know which of you who contributed to this page are Indians. As much I would like to praise your work, I would like to draw your attention to the sad fact that our National Anthem is mired in a lot of controversies in this article. Though controversies provide constructive insight, it is desirable not to let it overshadow the original essence of this article- "The National Anthem of India". Therefore let us keep this article concise, clear and to the point and rename it "The Indian National Anthem" because "Jana Gana Mana" is the complete song of 5 stanzas whose only 1st stanza is the "National Anthem of India". In response to JNG71886 request, I have created a new article in Wikipedia: Jana Gana Mana (the complete song) which has all the extraneous information regarding the remaining unsung stanzas and controversies related to "Jana Gana Mana" with all relevant citations. I had earlier included that content in this article itself but it was reverted on the pretext that the article is becoming too lengthy even for the valuable information. Suggestions and criticisms are welcome SASSOTO (talk) 08:06, 21 July 2010 (UTC)SASSOTO
 * Hello SASSOTO! Apparently my revert was a mistake, sorry about that. The reasons I thought it was vandalism was because some vandals delete controversy-sections if they like the subject of an article. I reverted myself on your talkpage; feel free to revert me or undo my edit on the article. After reading through a couple of your most recent contributions I am convinced you were acting in good faith. Greetings from Amsterdam, Kwiki (talk) 08:56, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Discussing a move of Jana Gana Mana to Jana Gana Mana (The National Anthem of India)
Is there any consensus on this move? Should have been discussed in the talk page first. Shovon (talk) 10:59, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This move is a positive effort towards disambiguation of "Jana Gana Mana (The National Anthem of India)" and the Jana Gana Mana (the complete song) as composed and first sung by Gurudev Tagore. If u inspect closely, this need has been expressed in quite a few scattered discussions on this talk page by different visitors. That encouraged me to think that this move would in no way alter the state, purpose or relevance of the article in its original form. However if you still insist on a formal discussion, I welcome all. However, please clarify my these doubts:-
 * i> How many people need to agree and sign for this 'consensus' to be reached?
 * ii> Wat is the timeline for this consensus to be regarded as a mandate, in case no one turns up to contradict it or there is an overwhelming majority in favor?
 * Lets begin the discussion here onwards:- SASSOTO (talk) 13:25, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Jana Gana Mana most commonly refers to the National Anthem of India and as such this article is also about that. There's no need to move this to the extended title.


 * Regarding the clarifications sought above -


 * i> Numbers may vary and


 * ii> Nothing is mandated in Wikipedia. Contributors may agree to something now and decide to change that later. Shovon (talk) 09:55, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The move should never have happened, and it has rightly been reverted, so is there really anything to discuss? &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  10:00, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

"ôntostho bô"
I don't actually speak Bengali, but as far as I'm aware all the "b"s in the lyrics actually represent an etymological "v", which just happens to be pronounced "b" in modern Bengali - the Bengali script article calls this "ôntostho bô". Does this mean the NLK transliteration should use "v" throughout? It's always written as "v" when transliterated into other Indian languages that do still make the v-b distinction. Kannan91 (talk) 17:33, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * In Bengali, there's no difference between the "bô"s. Both are written as "ব". There is also no difference between the pronunciations. However, I'm not a linguist and am only speaking from the point of view of a native Bengali speaker.Shovon (talk) 19:03, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion To Revise Code Of Contact Section
I am suggesting to revise "Code Of Conduct" section. This portion does not match with over all article standard. I dislike the way, india.gov.in link has been given directly. More details needed on "Code of Conduct" --Tito Dutta (Talk) 13:03, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, I have already taken care of that SASSOTO (talk) 23:14, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks! --Tito Dutta (Talk) 12:42, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Sindh or Sindhu
There is debate about the word Sindh (See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14455955). The Bengali version here correctly says "sindhu" but the Hindi transliteration looks incorrect. 194.73.114.247 (talk) 12:54, 11 August 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.73.114.247 (talk)
 * Nothing new in this controversy. Tagore indeed mean 'Sindh', the state in his poem; because Punjab, Gujarat, Maratha (Maharashtra) appear in the same line. However, the bengali pronunciation of 'Sindh' is 'Sindho', which sounds very similar to 'Sindhu'. So after independence, the spelling of Sindh in Bengali is often written as 'Sindhu' without any objections. But hindi-speakers are yet to form a consensus between pronouncing 'Sindh' or 'Sindhu' like their Bengali counterparts. Since what matters most is the spirit of singing the anthem, even government or courts refrain from raising a mountain of a mole-hill over one word. SASSOTO (talk) 06:40, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

It is the text that concerns me. The Bengali text in this article (in line with other sources I have checked) is spelled (and pronounced) "sindhu" whilst the Hindi transliteration looks to me (I am not a Hindi speaker) to be "sindh". If this is the case then surely the Hindi text in the article should be changed to match the Bengali (and also match the official pronunciation as described in the reference). 194.73.114.247 (talk) 11:27, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
 * In that case, the most appropriate word 'to sing' is Sindhu. At least that is what the chorus sings in the mp3 that can be downloaded from the the Govt. of India portal SASSOTO (talk) 00:23, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, at the official Government of India portal, the word is unambiguously "Sindh" both in the text and in the recording. 74.95.4.49 (talk) 23:49, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Peer-Review for GA or A Class
IF you have not contributed significantly to this article and wish to examine this article's quality, please add yourself to the Wiki Project India peer-review team. Discussions may be carried out on the Jana Gana Mana peer-review page. SASSOTO (talk) 09:37, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

The Morning Song of India
I have created for people wishing to seek more information about the English translation of Jana Gana Mana in Tagore's words. SASSOTO (talk) 02:44, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Good work! --Tito Dutta (Talk) 15:54, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thx :)SASSOTO (talk) 02:17, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism report
This article is becoming prone to vandalism from some regular IP vandals who regular make around the same changes in the article: 1. Change in Lyrics 2. Capt. Ram Singh Thakur controversy, and so on. Here's an example:- by the IP 117.200.51.178

I think, whenever we come across such major vandalism, we can list the IP here so that we can request an IP ban in future on these IPs. SASSOTO (talk) 11:11, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Proved - Tagore composed Jana Gana Mana for Lord Krishna
Dear All,

Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna. Please read the short article at http://www.hamiltoninstitute.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=70&Itemid=30.

For the complete article read it at http://www.articlebiz.com/article/1051510433-1-jana-gana-mana-for-lord-krishna/.

Please forward this mail to as many people as you can. The British created the myth that our gods and goddesses are mythological characters. This is not true and our Vedic scriptures confirm it.

Regards,

Nihar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.169.140.208 (talk) 11:29, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

New section: Efforts to modify/ improve the original national anthem by others
Hello to all, Recently I came across an interesting video on youtube. It is by a person called Krishna Jambur who has made a sincere and a commendable effort to improve the lyrics of the prevalent national anthem without changing the meter/ tempo or tune of the same. He mentions in his video that he has done this with the objective of making the national anthem more relevant and representative of India's contributions and philosophy and culture (he says in its present form it appears to be an incomplete description of geographical regions only). I believe such efforts should be a part of this article.

118.151.209.34 (talk) 07:49, 10 February 2012 (UTC) J S Venkataramana 118.151.209.34 (talk) 07:49, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

New section: Efforts to modify/ improve the original national anthem by others
Here is the link to the Video by Sri. Krishna Jambur.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bwQyOUX6Kw

118.151.209.34 (talk) 07:52, 10 February 2012 (UTC) J S Venkataramana 118.151.209.34 (talk) 07:52, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Sindh controversy
Why is there nothing about the controversy over the inclusion of Sindh when it is part of another sovereign country (Pakistan) ? A number of high profile court cases have been brought forward to delete it. Surely this deserves a mention here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.231.88.191 (talk) 10:28, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

- You can go through the controversies in detail here: Jana_Gana_Mana_(hymn) Hopefully you will find many more references and interpretations and see wisdom. SASSOTO (talk) 07:09, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Where is the attribution?
Where is the attribution and source of this quote? 'I should only insult myself if I cared to answer those who consider me capable of such unbounded stupidity'

It was a known thing, which abounds in many of Tagore's personal letters that he admired the British rule in India. The link given for this quote leads to a BBC page written by some patriotic Indian.

The clear fact is that there was no 'India' when this song was sung in felicitation of King George V of England. It was a song sung with a words that extends adoration for King George and England. That it does not, is only a retrospective view from modern day India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.201.243.252 (talk) 06:27, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

- You can go through the controversies in detail here: Jana_Gana_Mana_(hymn) Hopefully you will find many more references and interpretations and see wisdom. SASSOTO (talk) 07:09, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

"Original" Hindi Version
The article in the lead-in states "The original Hindi version of the song Jana Gana Mana, translated by Ali and based on the poem by Tagore, was a little different. It was "Sukh Chain Ki Barkha Barase, Bharat Bhagya Hai Jaga...."." but doesn't carry any citations. By all available accounts, this was a song commissioned by Subash Chandra Bose and was loosely based on the Tagore creation. What is original about this Hindi version? As far as I know, there was actually an "Official" Hindi version of the song commissioned and even recorded in late 40s or very early 50s, that preserves all the original words and Hindi-izes key verbs and some nouns.

A verifiable source needs to be cited or that segment removed from the lead. Bmurthy (talk) 22:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Transliteration
As I understand, under the Lyrics section, apart from English, only the Bengali version should remain, as that is the original language in which the poem was composed. I am a bit surprised to see transliteration in so many languages under the section! Shovon (talk) 10:40, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yup, I too believe the same, The Anthem shall be in Bengali script, Bengali romanization, and the NLK Hindi style romanization only. I not pretty sure about the Devanagari script, but I'm quite sure that the other scripts are not supposed to be,.. looking to know forward from others! বিজয় চক্রবর্তী (Bijoy Chokroborti) ✉ 05:31, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Lyrics
I have removed languages, other than Bengali & English from the lyrics section. Bengali has been retained because it is the language in which the poem was originally written. One may refer to various previous discussions on this, links to which are given below - Thanks. Shovon (talk) 11:38, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Discussion 1
 * 2) Discussion 2
 * 3) Discussion 3
 * 4) Discussion 4


 * Thanks for citing the previous discussions. Bengali and English are the only scripts that belong.Pectoretalk 02:01, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Section removal
I have removed the section titled "Refusal of Indian religious minorities from singing the national anthem". The whole section was referenced to the single source. The disclaimer of the website says: "All the contents of Indian Kanoon are only for general information or use. Indian Kanoon does not provide any warranty, express or implied, as to the quality, accuracy, timeliness, completeness, performance, fitness for a particular purpose or any of its contents and as such Indian Kanoon is not liable."

I don' think we should use an website which does not provide any warranty to the quality, accuracy, completeness of its content as a reliable source. At the very least the section was undue and shouldn't be add back with multiple reliable sources. Solomon7968 06:51, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Another vandalism?
I noticed that the romanization is not in the right place. Wanted to move it back, but I'm afraid that the romanization is vandalized. Can anyone please check it? Thanks Griff88 (talk) 11:20, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Major issue
There is an issue with this article. The national anthem of India is the first stanza of the Hindi version of the original Bengali song written by Tagore. You can have a separate article on the Bengali version, but if this article is about the national anthem of India, it would, by the necessity of being factual, have to be about the Hindi version (at least in its transcription, transliteration and translation). Previous consensus, on this page, which is in conflict with India's official declaration, violates Wikipedia policy. That the Hindi version is the national anthem of India is stated categorically and clearly by the Government of India in several places, as well as by other encyclopedias and reliable sources. I will wait for responses, but I'm mystified how the Bengali lyrics came to be given pride of place, and the Hindi lyrics and transliteration are absent. Here are the references: Other Indian reliable sources state this clearly: Best regards, Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  07:30, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The National Portal of India, the Parliament of India: National Anthem, and, all say clearly: "The National Anthem of India: Jana-gana-mana, composed originally in Bengali by Rabindranath Tagore, was adopted in its Hindi version by the Constituent Assembly as the National Anthem of India on 24 January 1950."
 * The official transliteration posted by India's Ministry of Home Affirs and by India's Parliament, is, "Jana-gana-mana-adhinayaka jaya he, Bharata-bhagya-vidhata, ..." has unmistakably Hindi, not Bengali, phonology.
 * The sound recording provided by the Government of India is unmistakably Hindi in pronunciation and not Bengali.
 * , "This event has been organised also to mark the day of adoption of Hindi version of Jana Gana Mana, written by Rabindranath Tagore, by the Constituent Assembly of free India as its National Anthem in the year 1950."
 * , "Adopted by the Constituent Assembly as the national anthem of India on January 24, 1950, the song Jana-gana-mana, in its Hindi version of the first stanza, was originally composed in Bengali by poet Rabindranath Tagore."
 * , "The song Jana-gana-mana, originally composed in Bengali by poet Rabindranath Tagore, was adopted, in its Hindi version of the first stanza, by the Constituent Assembly as the national anthem ..."
 * Fowler, If that is the case then the Bengali lyrics should be removed, imo. Solomon7968 08:45, 23 April 2014 (UTC) Question: Looking into the archives how do we define the Hindi version of the song? Solomon7968 09:16, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing out the link to the archived discussion. I knew some of those people well.  It was the days when battles over region and language (waged by various regional and linguistic chauvinists) were common on Wikipedia.  Some editors such as Nichalp, Abecedere, and Ragib, however, have impeccable credentials.  The main problem seems to be that the minutes of the original 1950 Constituent Assembly discussion don't mention anything about the "Hindi version."  Wikipedia editors who were opposed to seeing Hindi in any form, were suggesting that the Government of India sites which in 2006 were stating that the national anthem was the "Hindi version," was the handiwork of webmasters.
 * Those days, however, are long gone. Today, I think, we have a clearer understanding of WP:Original Research: we can't ourselves interpret the minutes of the Constituent Assembly discussion, not only because they are sketchy (a lot was said and understood by the participants that might not have been written down), but also because they are primary sources.  We can't ourselves investigate original intent. Since 2006, other official sources have appeared.  These are print sources and immune to the whims of web masters.  These official sources also state that the Hindi version is the national anthem and they give an English transliteration of the national anthem, which by logical necessity, we have to presume to be the English transliteration of the Hindi version.  Since these official sources don't give the Hindi/Devanagari script, we cannot either (although, I can't say I've examined all the sources).  The publication,, mentioned above (and available in pdf form) has this transliteration.  Therefore, in my view, we should first have the English transliteration of the Hindi version, then the English translation, then in a separate section on the original Bengali song, have the Bangali script and English transliteration of the Bengali original.  Or, the Bengali version and the history could be first, followed by a section on the national anthem/Hindi version.  But the article needs to state clearly that the Hindi version is the national anthem.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  13:22, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Additional Ideas
The article mentions a 52-second version and a 20 second version. If it were the Olympics, what would be the proper version to play there? When was India last on the podium? I'll let someone else look that up. Kristinwt (talk) 05:54, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:35, 3 May 2016 (UTC)