Talk:Janez Drnovšek/Archive 1

Political motivated vandalism?
I reverted this paragraph from Avala once again:


 * In 2004 he will face charges for command responsibility for shooting 40 unarmed Yugoslaw Army men while they were pulling back from Slovenia. He will be charged together with Milan Kucan and Janez Jansa. This masacre was a trigger of Yugoslaw wars.

Some facts and food for thought:
 * 1) this is complete made-up and I hear it for the first time,
 * 2) there are no concrete arguments or facts in this passage; no dates, no sources, no mention of which court should the process be held, etc.,
 * 3) Avala recommended that I read  before I revert, which I did. It does not mention "Drnovšek", "Ku&#269;an", "Slovenija" or any event from 1991 for that matter,
 * 4) At the time of Slovenian war (1991), Dr. Drnovšek was not even in position to command anyone in Slovenia - he was merely a representative of Slovenia in collective presidency of SFRY.

Regards, Romanm 07:47, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

What is your problem??? It`s the only question I will ask. That website is publishing daily news so of course you can not see it anymore! Courts that are going to process this are courts of Serbia and courts in Slovenia. I said in 2004. AND AT THE AND IF YOU HEAR SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME, IT DOESN`T MEAN IT IS COMPLETE MADE-UP. I will of course find an article about this and then you will be ashamed and redfaced. Avala 08:32, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

YES I THINK YOUR VANDALISM IS POLITICAL MOTIVATED Here is the picture you need! It is the scan from newspapers! The only thing that you will desperately try to do now is to prove that this scan is copyrighted :( It`s sad what can I say. Avala 08:51, 2 May 2004 (UTC)


 * As for the seriousness of the quoted article from Blic magazine - it's about the same size as the report about car accident and catching a drug dealer of Croat origin. IMHO encyclopedia should list important material, not political motivated propaganda messages (which, undoubtebly, those accusations are).
 * As for the seriousness of the accusations - I won't even try to respond. Avala, you're using Wikipedia for political reasons! :-( --Romanm 21:41, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Serb ultra nationalists really need to stop vandalising Wiki pages with their ridiculous propaganda. Drnovsek is a respected European statesman, he really deserves respect. --GeneralPatton 03:46, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

What? How is it propaganda if someone sues somebody? It was in the news so stop beeing blind! It is not your problem are they guilty or not! Court will decide! Here we will just put some info whether we like it or not! OK? If you say we should delete this info I will say that you support shooting of 40 unarmed man. It would be like if I delete part of ICTY in Milosevic article and say -NO NO DELETE IT DELETE IT STOP PROPAGANDA! Avala


 * Bottom line is this: four Serbian political parties made up that Slovenians killed 40 unarmed(!) Yugoslav soldiers during the independence war and decided to sue both Slovenian presidents for it. Think about this:
 * Can you and I and Bozzo the Clown claim that such things happened and sue someone who wasn't even in charge at the time (Drnovsek started to rule in 1992 and the war lasted for 10 days in 1991)? Yes, we can and AFAIK similar accusations were made by several Serbian groups for Madeleine Albright, Bill Clinton and few more Western politicians.
 * Should this news enter the encyclopedia entry about this personality? No, IMHO this was a political motivated action which importance is by far larger for internal Serbian political affairs (ie. for those four parties to gain more votes on the next elections) than the rest of the world.
 * I propose that this page is reverted before Avala started to edit it and protected until we reach a general agreement here (the rest of the world and Avala, that is). --Romanm 11:37, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

YOU ARE DENYING FACTS AND ACTING A JUDGE!

Your proposal is funny! It`s like when Serbian crown prince says:"I think that the best thing for Serbia is to become monarchy". Like we are all stupid here Romanm !

YOU ARE TRYING TO HUSH UP THIS HORRIBLE CRIME!

Avala 11:59, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I reported this page to Requests for comment. I will respect the decision of the community, if any. --Romanm 21:39, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

My two cents: The chronological order of events as presented by Romanm is pretty persuasive to me. The lawsuit certainly seems frivolous if Drnovsek was not actually in any position of authority when the alleged crimes occured. Furthermore, if that was the only newspaper notice it got, Romanm is correct that it is quite a small mention. Unless Avala can provide some more evidence that this is a bigger deal, then it shouldn't go in. (Note: This is not to say that Avala's concerns are not valid. But Wikipedia is not a platform to advance political agendas. If the matter becomes a bigger deal, it should of course be included here. But Wikipedia should never be on the cutting edge of talking about an issue. Snowspinner 00:51, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Romanm and GeneralPatton
are vandalising pages for Milan Kucan and Janez Drnovsek. I wrote that they will face charges in fornt of international court of justice and the hague war tribunal and other courts for command responsibility for killing 40 unarmed men in 1991. I provided more evidence but he is still reverting and even saying that I am politically motivated vandal!??!??!? Please take some action here. I mean at least warn him! -- 09:03, 2 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Please refer to the Talk:Janez Drnovsek for my explanation why I did revert that articles. Note the time-line: Avala's first edit included no source, no details whatsoever. Note also Avala's tone.
 * Not seeing the news about accusations of both Slovenian presidents in the headlines (it might have slipped me), I can only state my oppinion that Serbian and Montenegrian so called "green parties" were looking for some publicity. --Romanm 19:50, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Publicity or not charges are in front of court and you can of course think that they are false or whatever but you can`t delete info because it s vandalism. I have just put some info that i even have evidence in news articles. You can`t say it is propaganda. Maybe you don`t like that Slovenians killed 40 unarmed men like dogs but I don`t like it too. So article has to contain such info.Avala GeneralPatton is calling charges of killing 40 people silly! This is disgusting because there were many Croats in this group of 40 people. His explanations for deleting are : ''Removed silly serb propaganda. No wonder serb propagandists hate Kucan so much, since he has had a major role in bringing Slovenia into EU. and removed ludicrous charges''. Romanm said even worse things ''   IMHO encyclopedia should list important material, not political motivated propaganda messages (which, undoubtebly, those accusations are). As for the seriousness of the accusations - I won't even try to respond. Avala, you're using Wikipedia for political reasons! :-( ''

'''PLEASE DO SOMETHING! I CAN`T LOOK ANYMORE HOW THEY MAKE FUN OF THIS.'''

They even call me nationalist and serbian propaganist. I explained some more in talk of Janez Drnovsek and Milan Kucan.
 * Avala, I never called you names. I agree with you that those are serious accusations, but I have to add "from four of the Serbian political parties", which severely diminishes their importance so IMHO this does still not qualify for encyclopedia entry. --Romanm 14:11, 3 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I have another disagreement with Avala. Because of the previous bad experiences, I would like to ask the community to check Talk:Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and comment last edits of SFRY, before someone will accusse someone else that he started the edit war. --Romanm 08:04, 5 May 2004 (UTC)


 * In SFRY I changed the table so it can be viewed with 17" screens and 1024x768 resolution. Also I said you can make any changes to that table. Order it alphabetically, by size..... etc.

'''Also users Romanm and GeneralPatton still revert Milan Kucan and Janez Drnovsek articles by calling me nationalist. I will keep saying that court will have to decide about this charges not them.''' --Avala 14:02, 5 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Avala, you are lying. I never called you names and I didn't edit those pages for three days. Go check the history if you please. --Romanm 11:29, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

THREE DAYS! WOW I AM IMPRESSED YOU ABSTAINED FROM VANDALISING THAT LONG! Avala 11:49, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

JUST TELL ME WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO HUSH UP AND MAKE FUN OF THIS HORRIBLE CRIME?

Avala
I would like to report Avala for constant ruining of Milan Kucan and Janez Drnovsek articles content with false accusations on both Slovenian presidents. Please check those pages history for his edit actions and Talk:Janez Drnovsek for the reasons why the news about four unknown Serbian political parties going to court for alleged crime that never happened does not deserve to be included on the encyclopedia entry. I also checked the ICTY homepage and sure enough Slovene politicians were not mentioned among the accused - Milan Kucan did testify against Slobodan Milosevic, but is not accused himself. --Romanm 14:56, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

I can see that you you are denying shooting of 40 people. I am absolutely sure that you are one of those funny neo-nazis whuch claim that Holocaust never happened. You can say what you want, but I am not denying crime of Serbs but whcih Serbs?


 * Milosevic's fanatics!

I want him to get punishment for life, but he is not the only one who is guilty!

So please if you support killing of innocent and unarmed people, I think you should go somewhere else. Avala 09:59, 6 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Avala, we should discuss the issues about those articles on Talk:Janez Drnovsek, but for your accusations of me being neo-nazi, I feel insulted and demand an apology and I demand it here! --Romanm 11:29, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I can't apologise to you because I still think that you are nn!


 * Well, Avala, allow me to say something about this matter. Recently I had a rare opportunity to meet Roman personally and I can assure you he is in no way that person of what you are talking he is. On the contrary, he is very fine, respectful and intelligent young guy, who deserves a lot of attention and listening. So for sure you should apologize him for your accusations. I won't go to the issues here, but I belive that Roman has just good intentions and you should follow his example. If this crime was commited in the territory of Slovenia, the whole truth shall come out soon. And in the first place you know that JNA was aggressor to Slovene nation in those early 1990s, so we might expect what followed. Nobody is denying the crime, particularly not Roman, who is just trying to make things right. And because Roman comes from Zasavje, a region of Slovenia which was first occupied by the Nazi-German Army in 1941 I feel certain he knows what Nazism meant and means. And you, if you come from Serbian society, can show some of the courage which is so distinctive for Serbs and not fearfulness, because nobody has nothing against Serbian nation as a whole. Best regards. --XJamRastafire 18:18, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

You said that he is young guy and that he is from Zasavje and that he knows what is it - Nazism. Well if he is young he doesn`t. There are even Jews that are NeoNazis. Of course not many but still.

If he is not nn than I am not sure what is the reason for his childldih behavior of playing the Judge and Court???

And at last should we delete whole info about ICTY in Slobodan Milosevic article because he is still innocent until proved guilty??? No! Because it is important info that he is facing charges in front of some court! And he has to explain why did he made fun of this with Bozo the Clown? Avala 10:05, 10 May 2004 (UTC)


 * As far as "Bozo the Clown" is concerned: this was meant purely as "someone you hear about for the first time" or "someone who is not generaly known in public for his credibility" or "someone unknown". Any other interpretation was not intentional and I apology to anyone who seriously thought that I was making joke from the victims on either side - this was never my intention and those who know me know that it's true. (I still believe everything else I wrote, though.) --Romanm 22:22, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

WHY?

Because you are denying murder of 40 people on ethnic bases!

But I am insulted too and I demand your apology for making fun of shooting 40 unarmed and innocent people!

You mentioned BOZO THE CLOWN in the discussion of shooting 40 unarmed men that were pulling back!

Avala

JUST TELL ME WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO HUSH UP THIS HORRIBLE CRIME?

Avala 12:01, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

If you have any serious proofs abot that report that to the ICTY!

Refactoring
Would it help if I removed all personal remarks from this talk page? I learned the technique from user:MyRedDice, and people usually say they either don't mind or even that they like it... --Uncle Ed 21:03, 7 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Fine by me. --Romanm 21:36, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Comments from Arbitration Commitee
What follows is a repost from RfA, where this article was briefly discussed. Emphasis is mine. Snowspinner 15:51, 19 May 2004 (UTC):

Oppose acceptance: Suggest mediation. I have done some research regarding the law suit at issue. '''I suggest it not be mentioned in the articles (or anywhere in Wikipedia) until the International Court of Justice has decided to hear it. (in other words not just filed but accepted by the court as worth hearing).''' If the parties continue with personal attacks the matter could be heard on that basis with offending parties all banned for a day or two. Meanwhile I suggest everyone just delete all personal attacks. I did not observe any neo-nazis or clowns myself. If we do eventually accept this matter it will not be to determine the content of the article, but to determine whether the users involved have followed Wikipedia policies. Fred Bauder 12:03, May 12, 2004 (UTC) Concur with Fred. James F. (talk) 12:20, 12 May 2004 (UTC) Please try to resolve the dispute amicably through mediation or other means first. See Wikipedia:Requests for mediation if you've tried other methods. --Camembert 13:13, 12 May 2004 (UTC) Concur with Lee (Camembert). Martin 18:20, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

As of 24th July 2004
Just for the record: As of today. --Romanm 21:18, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I am still waiting Avala's apology for calling me neo-nazi,
 * Avala leaves Janez Drnovsek and Milan Kucan as they are on English Wikipedia,
 * ... but he tries to insert the same content to the Slovenian Wikipedia on regular basics,
 * ... and occasionaly inserts similar line to the Timeline of Slovene history (see talk page)

Health
Apparently his health has been notoriously bad for the past few years (some sort of cancer) and he is currently not seeking treatment. Does anyone have any background information they can provide for this? Wencer 04:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. In fact, I can't believe that there is no mention of his health here already. WorldWide Update 08:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/09/world/europe/09drnovsek.html?ex=1169614800&en=0fb7697b161fcca0&ei=5070 --205.236.20.253 19:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe I was watching a travel channel documentary or other discovery product of a similar nature that re-iterates that he became frustrated with conventional medicine's answers to cancers and decided to take the approach of vegansim and a VERY sparse lifestyle in an attempt to cure himself or at least find peace. He lives alone in a house atop a hill that appears unguarded and unfortified in any way, with no modern amenities, and a dog. I find the fact that the head of state of a country can live without worry alone in a small normal house in this country very admirable. How interesting a man. 214.13.9.26 (talk) 06:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)