Talk:Japanese armour

MESS!!!!
 please do not make a mess of Kozan-do and Tosei-gusoku styles - they from different eras (during Sengoke Kozan-do become purely parade armours, and new-fashioned Tosei-gusoku - appeared) Idot (talk) 02:51, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The whole article is a mess, no one who looks at the article for information will know that Kozan-do and Tosei-gusoku are from different eras will they unless that information is included. There are practically no references on any info and many dead links. Were is your references on this info about "parade armors"  how will anyone know whats true or not without references.  Also the word "do or dou" refers to the chest armor only while gusoku refers to the entire armor.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samuraiantiqueworld (talk • contribs) 03:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * first of all icreasing mess IS NOT a good idea! about references I have a book which writeen in Ruissian, and hope that someone will add english references. if you want I can add lots of russian references, but will you accept 'em? (Idot (talk) 03:46, 16 December 2010 (UTC))
 * PS I know what do and gusoku mean, but armours are classified by do not by kote or something else (e.g. do-maru and maru-do - not gusoku-maru and maru-gusoku) Idot (talk) 03:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * If you are talking about a kozane chest armor you say kozane do or dou if you are talking about a type of armor that uses a kozane dou you would say kozane dou gusoku
 * If you want I can help with references..let me know, also if you use google search and search under books using your search word such as kozane do you will find books that use the word and you can read some of them online and get references that way.Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 05:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * "please do not make a mess of Kozan-do and Tosei-gusoku styles - they from different eras (during Sengoke Kozan-do become purely parade armours, and new-fashioned Tosei-gusoku"


 * The whole article is a mess, no one who looks at the article for information will know that Kozan-do and Tosei-gusoku are from different eras will they unless that information is included. There are practically no references on any info and many dead links. Were is your references on this info about "parade armors"  how will anyone know whats true or not without references.  Also the word "do or dou" refers to the chest armor only while gusoku refers to the entire armor.


 * Your use of kozan-do is wrong,  (Kozan-do ("antique cuirass"[2]) — old fashioned armours (pre-Sengoku styles))This is wrong and is not a reference, a reference comes from a verifiable reference such as a published book.  Kozane refers to armor made from small scales and a kozane do or dou is a chest armor made from small scales.Toshi-gusoku refers to armor made from plates of iron.
 * Read this reference http://books.google.com/books?id=04S4YdDarD0C&pg=PA318&dq=Tosei-gusoku&hl=en&ei=940JTeWBG4K0lQeTxuTrAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=Tosei-gusoku&f=false


 * Read this reference http://books.google.com/books?id=IQ3FAZG94ZsC&pg=PA32&dq=Tosei-gusoku&hl=en&ei=940JTeWBG4K0lQeTxuTrAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCcQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=Tosei-gusoku&f=false


 * Do not use http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_jpn_armour.html as a reference as there are mistakes in the information


 * Read this to understand kozane http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.ch04.html


 * Under Toshi-gusoku you have Hon-kozane-maru-do listed, this is a kozane armor made from scales.(talk) 04:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * in my book it mentioned as transitional to Tosei-gusoku (as it was not known at Genpei), may be it is worth to make a separate section for transitional armours? (Idot (talk) 06:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC))
 * moved 'em to Kozane section (Idot (talk) 07:51, 16 December 2010 (UTC))
 * I rechecked my source its author (Nosov) classifies some of armours made from kozane as tosei-gusoku, according their time period => SO need to check alternative sources, what do they call as tosei-gusoku (Idot (talk) 08:46, 16 December 2010 (UTC))


 * There are many mistakes and unless they are corrected both sections should be merged into one section (thats what I did) untill the proper research is done and references are added so that people will not be reading false information. If you want some help correcting the information let me know and I will help you with references.Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 04:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Idot (talk • contribs)
 * I think it would be much informative if we separate 'em in right way (Idot (talk) 07:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC))


 * if you can add English refrences from a published book (I can add only Russian references to a published book which is writen on Russian) I'll be glad :-) Idot (talk) 06:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes that is better, I will add some references, unfortunate that there is much conflicting information published and it is hard to decide the right one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samuraiantiqueworld (talk • contribs) 10:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * OK! I'll wait. May you also check defentions of tosei-gusoku and kozane-gusoku? (as my book describe some armours made from kozane as tosei-gusoku) Idot (talk) 11:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Many armours were made from kiritsuke zane which is a fake kozane, kiritsuke kozane is a plate armour made to look like kozane and many people are fooled into thinking that it is scale armour.  Tosei-gusoku can be made to look like kozane with the use of kikitsuke zane. (Kiritsuke zane is the method — rather common from the latter part of the sixteenth century — of cutting the tops of solid lames to resemble boards made of built-up scales.)  (Kiritsuke Zane Appearance) Kiritsuke zane, when properly done, is almost indistinguisable from hon kozane unless looked at up close. The less expensive forms are just metal or leather boards with a saw-tooth or zig-zag cut along the top to give the appearance of scale construction. Obviously, these aren't the ones that would fool the experts.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samuraiantiqueworld (talk • contribs) 11:52, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * may you add whateverer useful you found with references to the article ? (Idot (talk) 13:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC))

Would it not be more accurate to stop using the oft-confusing Japanese names and nomenclature for various pieces of armour and their methods of construction, and simply stick to European terms (such as scale, lamellar, plate, splint, greaves, cuirass, helmet, etc) with their respective names being left in parentheses? It would certainly be a lot less confusing for someone such as myself who is not particularly fluent in Japanese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.243.100.246 (talk) 14:30, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It would not be more accurate as these are the names that authors of books on the subject have used for over 100 years including (Clove Sinclare, Ian Bottomley, Anthony Bryant, George Stone, Trevor Absolon, H Russell Robinson}, Many of these items and or their parts have no equal in European armor. You could use the same logic on samurai weapons also, why call a Japanese spear a "yari", why not just call it a spear, and why call a "katana" by its true name, why not just call it a sword. In European armor there is no name for a chest armor made from hundreds of individual scales connected to each other and made into strips of armor (hon kozane dou) or a suit of armor meant to fold up and fit into a small box or bag for easy storage or carrying (tatami gusoku). A lot of effort has been made to find the right Japanese name for the hundteds of complex types of weapons and or armors written about ande pictured on Wikipedia and wikipedia commons.Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 23:11, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

tosei-gusoku references

 * http://books.google.com/books?id=s2oiAQAAIAAJ&q=tosei-gusoku&dq=tosei-gusoku&hl=en&ei=xPUJTd-0CIPGlQe4np2aAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=TPw7m2qrRloC&pg=PA29&dq=tosei-gusoku&hl=en&ei=xPUJTd-0CIPGlQe4np2aAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=tosei-gusoku&f=false
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=i0ni1NmbYe0C&pg=PA171&dq=tosei-gusoku&hl=en&ei=xPUJTd-0CIPGlQe4np2aAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=tosei-gusoku&f=false
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=jGsVHV098K0C&pg=PA36&dq=tosei-gusoku&hl=en&ei=xPUJTd-0CIPGlQe4np2aAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=tosei-gusoku&f=false
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=m-XpP_pdANcC&pg=PA378&dq=tosei-gusoku&hl=en&ei=xPUJTd-0CIPGlQe4np2aAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEkQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=tosei-gusoku&f=false
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=IQ3FAZG94ZsC&pg=PA32&dq=tosei-gusoku&hl=en&ei=g_gJTZqEE4KKlwfM07nmAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCcQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=tosei-gusoku&f=false
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=1fb7tBwv4ZYC&pg=PA39&dq=tosei-gusoku&hl=en&ei=g_gJTZqEE4KKlwfM07nmAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=tosei-gusoku&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samuraiantiqueworld (talk • contribs) 11:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Kozane references
Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 12:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * http://books.google.com/books?ei=__0JTaiBF4K0lQev352gAQ&ct=result&id=HkcOAQAAIAAJ&dq=kozane+armors&q=kozane+#search_anchor
 * http://books.google.com/books?ei=__0JTaiBF4K0lQev352gAQ&ct=result&id=MBvWAAAAMAAJ&dq=kozane+armors&q=kozane+#search_anchor
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=TPw7m2qrRloC&pg=PA31&dq=kozane&hl=en&ei=EwAKTb2kD4SclgfYxZnZAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCcQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=kozane&f=false
 * http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=QuQbb0epN0EC&pg=PA59&dq=kozane+armour&hl=en&ei=jgAKTeHgC4S0lQe299zsAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=kozane%20armour&f=false
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=FxTNBAAJaqEC&pg=PA47&dq=kozane+armour&hl=en&ei=jgAKTeHgC4S0lQe299zsAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=kozane%20armour&f=false
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=TPw7m2qrRloC&pg=PA31&dq=kozane+armour&hl=en&ei=jgAKTeHgC4S0lQe299zsAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=kozane%20armour&f=true
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=ZqgMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA270&dq=kozane+armour&hl=en&ei=jgAKTeHgC4S0lQe299zsAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CFAQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=kozane%20armour&f=true
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=RMBdoimD2kIC&pg=PA20&dq=kozane+armour&hl=en&ei=cgIKTevYLIXGlQfxrJnpAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=kozane%20armour&f=true
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFf9e0DmHZUC&pg=PA188&dq=kozane+armour&hl=en&ei=cgIKTevYLIXGlQfxrJnpAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=kozane%20&f=false
 * http://books.google.com/books?ei=cgIKTevYLIXGlQfxrJnpAQ&ct=result&id=Kx7fAAAAMAAJ&dq=kozane+armour&q=kozane+#search_anchor

The emergence of guns and changes in armor in Japan in the 16th century
In the previous edition, it was stated that the arrival of guns in Japan changed Japanese armor into European style nanban dou, but this is a misunderstanding.

With the arrival of guns, Japanese armor changed from do-maru to tosei-gusoku using itazane. The characteristic of European style nanban dou is that the front and back dou are each made from a single iron plate, the center is raised, and the bottom end is V-shaped, which is rare among gusoku.--SLIMHANNYA (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)