Talk:Japanese community of Mexico City

Chizuko Watanabe's thesis
Normally master's theses are not considered reliable sources, but in the case of Chizuko Watanabe...

I found the paper is cited five times on Google scholar, but this list does not include The Japanese in Latin America. That means this master's thesis has been cited at least six times.
 * Making Ethnic Choices: California's Punjabi Mexican Americans
 * Mexico in the 1940s: Modernity, Politics, and Corruption
 * Allied policy toward axis Interests in Mexico during World War II
 * America's Japanese Hostages: The World War II Plan for a Japanese Free Latin America
 * Transpacific Mexico: encounters with China and Japan in the age of steam (1867-1914)
 * The Japanese in Latin America (not seen on Google scholar)

And this statement may be related to why her work was cited by the Punjabi Mexican book:
 * Explorations in Ethnic Studies: The Journal of the National Association of Interdisciplinary Ethnic Studies, Volumes 14-16. NAIES, 1991. p. 153. (Snippet view) (Search View)
 * "The Mexican Japanese studied by Chizuko Watanabe shared certain characteristics with the Punjabi Mexicans. Japanese immigration to Mexico was greatest between 1908 (when the Gentlemen's Agreement cut it off to the United States) and[...] The Nikkei (Japanese or half- Japanese born in Mexico), even those children whose parents were both Japanese, all spoke [...]" and also "she studied are not part of any one community. However, Chizuko Watanabe's study of the Japanese in Mexico and Barbara Posadas' studies of the Filipino-Europeans in Chicago do focus on groups comparable to the Punjabi Mexicans[...]" See the search

So does this support the idea that this master's thesis is at a higher standard compared to other master's theses?

In addition, Masterson's book says on p. 265: "We will concentrate this discussion on Mexico City's Nikkei-jin, who have been studied most intensively, particularly by Chizuko Watanabe and Takehiro Misawa, in the decades following 1970."

He paraphrases her work here: p. 214: "As noted by Yasutaro Taki and Chizuko Watanabe, the predominance of mixed marriages among Mexico's Issei ensured that the Nisei generation would be quite small and largely limited to the Japanese colony in Baja California Norte."

He used one of Watanabe's interviews as a source: p. 322: "95. Watanabe, "Japanese Immigrant Community," 180-81. 96. Toshiro Katagiri, interviewed by Chizuko Watanabe, 30 Oct. 1981, summarized in Watanabe"

Also: On p. 266: "How did the Japanese immigrant family fare through the early 1990s in Mexico? We are fortunate to have a carefully researched study of this critically important social institution completed by Takehiro Misawa. Like Watanabe's work for the 1980s, Misawa placed particular emphasis upon marriage patterns, Japanese language schools, and university education as socializing forces through the generations. Primarily focused on the nation's capital,[...]"

Takehiro Misawa, "Familia como Institución de Seguridad Transgeneracional: Reprodución Social y Cultural de los Descendientes Japonesas en Mexico" (thesis, El Colegio de Mexico, Centros de Estudios Demográficos, 1996) WhisperToMe (talk) 06:57, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Married name of author Chizuko Watanabe
I want to find if Chizuko Watanabe has a name in Japanese (so it can be indicated with the English name) and therefore I want to see where she taught classes. That way I can access archives of any university websites and check for documents indicating her name.

When searching for info on Chizuko Watanabe I found:
 * Kashima, Tetsuden. Judgment Without Trial: Japanese American Imprisonment During World War II (The Scott and Laurie Oki series in Asian American studies). University of Washington Press, November 1, 2011. p. 248. ISBN 0295802332, 9780295802336.

So her married name is "Chizuko W. Hougen" WhisperToMe (talk) 07:33, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
 * "39. Chizuko W. Hougen, "The Japanese Immigrant Community in Mexico: Its History and Present," M.A. thesis, California State University, Los Angeles, June 1983, p. 64."

There is a "Chizuko W. Hougen" (April 22, 1947-January 31, 2005) on the Social Security Death Index: I want to know if she ever taught at a university so I can get information from archives of websites.
 * GeneologyBank
 * Death Record
 * Ancient Faces.com

From ancestry.co.uk (Search results) it states a "Chizuko Watanabe" married "William E Hougen" which explains the different name used for her in Tetsuden Kashima's citation. WhisperToMe (talk) 08:08, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

It seems like she became an instructor at a university. But I want to find out which one(s)...
 * p. 204.
 * "Chair Centre d'Etudes de l'Asie de 1'Est Universite de Montreal CP. 6128, Succ. A Montreal, QC Canada H3C 3J7 Phone: 513/343-5970 Communications Department FACULTY AND PROFESSIONAL STAFF Chizuko W. Hougen, Instructor, Communications Dept COURSES OFFERED Communications Japanese I, Hougen" (some text comes from the preview page on Google Books, some comes from the search result page)


 * Directory of Japan Specialists and Japanese Studies Institutions in the United States and Canada: Japanese studies institutions (Volume 2 of Directory of Japan Specialists and Japanese Studies Institutions in the United States and Canada: Japanese Studies in the United States, Kokusai Kōryū Kikin, ISBN 0924304251, 9780924304255). Association for Asian Studies, 1995. p. 312.
 * "Mount Hood Community College mil FACULTY AND PROFESSIONAL STAFF Ako Durrin, Instructor, Language and Literature Division Chizuko W. Hougen, Instructor, Language and Literature Division COURSES OFFERED Language and[...]"

So a "Chizuko W. Hougen" taught at Mount Hood Community College around 1995. She may have taught at the Universite de Montreal around 1989. WhisperToMe (talk) 08:25, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
 * 海外の日本語教育の現状: 日本語教育機関調査 (Survey Report on Japanese-Language Education Abroad) (title). 国際交流基金日本語国際センター (The Japan Foundation Japanese-Language Institute, Urawa) (editor), 大蔵省印刷局 (publisher), Mar 20, 2000. 4171577020, 9784171577028. p. 497
 * "Sl'Wi : Chizuko Hougen (Instructor of Japanese) ш ss » : ш i« ma or, mm i« ^ 4 ft : 15« Bflte* : 1983* СЛ) [6311] в! Bfl « : Oregon Joint Professional Schools of Business % PI « : Language Class tt : 18640 NW Walker Road. 1066 Beaverton ..." (text seems to be garbled from the Japanese original)

Seems like a "C Hougen" was still teaching at Mount Hood in 2002: WhisperToMe (talk) 08:51, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20030828102119/http://www.mhcc.edu/scripts/getClasses.asp?sess=SU&srch=1572 - http://www.webcitation.org/6PdLIK0xK
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20040816174749/http://www.mhcc.edu/scripts/getClasses.asp?sess=SU&srch=1572 - http://www.webcitation.org/6PdMQm8je (August 16, 2004 last archived instance of Hougen as an instructor)
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20050424212016/http://www.mhcc.edu/scripts/getClasses.asp?sess=SU&srch=1572 - http://www.webcitation.org/6PdMW28Fy - (April 24, 2005 now Hougen is no longer listed, replaced by "STAFF" - A Chizuko Hougen died in January 2005)
 * She is not listed in the staff and faculty website list http://web.archive.org/web/20020811220324/http://www.mhcc.edu/campus/campus_info/people/faculty/homepages/index.htm nor is she listed in the telephone directory: http://web.archive.org/web/20020615093807/http://www.mhcc.edu/campus/campus_info/people/phones/main.htm

Text of her obituary from The Oregonian 2/4/2005:

"A memorial service will be at 3 p.m. Sunday, Feb. 6, 2005, in Gresham United Methodist Church for Chizuko "Chiko" Watanabe Hougen, who died Jan. 31 at age 57.

Chizuko Watanabe was born April 22, 1947, in Tokyo. She immigrated to Los Angeles and received bachelor's and master's degrees from California State University, Los Angeles. In 1983, she moved to Gresham. She taught Japanese for Mt. Hood Community College for more than 18 years. She married William in 1983.

Survivors include her husband; son, Bill; mother, Kimi Watanabe; sisters, Taeko Shimozaki and Michiko Martensen; and brothers, Yotaro Watanabe and Fujio Watanabe.

Remembrances to the church. Arrangements by Affordable Funeral Alternatives. " WhisperToMe (talk) 22:00, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Grupo Sansei photos
From the Discover Nikkei (Japanese American National Museum): WhisperToMe (talk) 02:57, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * http://www.discovernikkei.org/en/nikkeialbum/albums/320/slide/ - http://www.webcitation.org/6Pp9Z8c5i - Photo of the founding of the Grupo Sansei in Mexico City - Sunday May 27, 1979

1998 list of Japanese organizations
In 1998 the Diario Reforma listed Mexico City's Japanese organizations:
 * "Organizaciones públicas japonesas en México. Diario Reforma. October 28, 1998. Regional News: p6. Más Cerca. Gale Group Informe Académico, GALE Document Number: GALE|A129678698.

This is what the source says: WhisperToMe (talk) 06:56, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Embajada de Japón en México - Paseo de la Reforma No. 395, Col, Cuauhtémoc, 06500 México, DF
 * Liceo Mexicano Japonés, AC - Camino a Santa Teresa No. 1500, Col. Pedregal de San Angel, 01900 México, DF
 * Asociación México Japonesa, AC - Calle Fujiyama No.144, Col. Las Aguilas, 01710 México, DF
 * Cámara Japonesa de Comercio e Industria de México, AC - Sevilla No. 9 piso 1, Col. Juárez, 06600 México, DF
 * Fundación Japón en México (Promoción para el intercambio cultural) - Paseo de la Reforma No. 395, Col. Cuauhtémoc, 06500, México, DF
 * JETRO - México (Japan External Trade Organization) (Organismo oficial para el fomento del intercambio económico) Paseo de las Palmas No. 239 piso 3, Col. Lomas de Chapultepec, 11000 México, DF
 * JICA (Japan International Cooperation Agency) (Organismo para la cooperación técnica conforme al Acuerdo firmado entre los gobiernos de Japón y de México) Ejército Nacional No. 418 - 201, Col. Chapultepec Morales, 11570 México, DF
 * Organización Minera Metálica de Japón (Oficina representativa e informativa de desarrollo industrial) Moliere No. 39 piso 5, Col. Polanco, 11550 México, DF

The lead section must be expanded
It only says: Mexico City has a Japanese community. Yeah, we can see that reading the content. The lead section should sumarize and describe a short resume of the article, as an quick introduction. --Zerabat (talk) 10:35, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I added some meat to the lead sentence. Hopefully it will be a start. If you want me to add more I'll see what I can do. WhisperToMe (talk) 23:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Now is good, but can be better than this. I suggest you to add a bit more from the history, the current population and actuality, of course sumarized. When it would be ready, and the history section properly developed, I will proceed to translate the article to Spanish.
 * Also I would like to suggest you to expand a little more 'Diplomatic missions' section, for example, with date of establishment, location in DF or which services offers. 'Geography' is also too short, and 'Notable residents' is not a recommended section due to being too subjective. --Zerabat (talk) 14:13, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback! I do need to get a source to expand the general history. As for the embassy I'm doing is trying to get a 1920s New York Times article to expand the info on that. It may be difficult to expand the geography section unless I get information on the pre-World War II Japanese settlements in Mexico City (assuming that there was a Japantown prior to the war). It's common for English Wikipedia articles to list "notable persons" from a town or city neighborhood, and in this case from an ethnic group. On the English Wikipedia usually somebody is included in "notable residents" if they have a Wikipedia article. Usually no article = not included. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:36, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I could not understand this: (in History) That year, the Japanese began forcing Japanese from a zone in northern Mexico near the U.S. border and along the Pacific Ocean to move out. (Kashima, p.95). What does it mean? The Japanese forced other Japanese to move out? I think the one who applied restrictions were the mexican government. I would like to have access to the mentioned source page to understand it more clearly, but pitifully Google Books is useless. By the way, i suggest the Geography section be renamed as Geographic(al) distribution. --Zerabat (talk) 14:05, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for catching that! I'm certain that I meant the Mexican government. It was a typo from my end. Anyway I took your suggestion and renamed the section. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:05, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I got page 95 of Kashima's book. Is it available where you are? The source sentence says: "Mexico then defined a ribbon of land (125 miles along the Pacific coast and 62 miles along the Mexico-U.S. border) from which all Japanese would be excluded.39 The first removal orders arrived in Baja California and Baja California Sur on January 2, 1942, and the Japanese were notified they had five days to leave the area." WhisperToMe (talk) 10:13, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi again! I've expanded it a bit but it's still mainly World War II era history. I can see if I can find anything from before WWII. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:55, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find any source from the pre-WWII period. Maybe you should ask to a user in Mexico City with access to a Mexican Library, if there is a source of this topic. --Zerabat (talk) 15:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Possibly more info in Watanabe's thesis?
I found that p. 225 of Garcia refers to page "46, 86n10" of Chizuko Watanabe's thesis. I wonder what use can be gotten out of it. The same page refers to 68-69. WhisperToMe (talk) 14:25, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

The History of the Japanese Immigrants in Mexico - citation info
I found a Japanese book cited in Jerry Garcia's and I found its citation info.

If a book was published in Japanese it's very important to get the names of the author and the title in Japanese characters. That way the book can be located and used as a source. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:40, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Japanese Association of Mexico City
From Akemi Kikumura Yano's book Encyclopedia of Japanese Descendants in the Americas: the index in page 319 states that "Japanese Association of Mexico City" is mentioned in pages 213 and 214. (Page 320 of the same index says to look up Japanese Association if you want information on the Kyoeikai)

The Search page states that on p. 213: "As the Japanese diplomatic office in Mexico became defunct, the Society of Mutual Prosperity (Kyoeikai La Sociedad de Prosperidad Mutual), a wartime metamorphosis of the Japanese Association of Mexico City ( Aso- ciación Japanesa de la [...]" with the rest saying: "Ciudad de México), took charge of[...]" WhisperToMe (talk) 16:00, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Useless references
Named reference "Garcíap225" and "Garcíap169" in third paragraph of History section are both useless references, because doesn't prove the assertions in what were inserted to reference. The first one only cites another source of information (Why doesn't try to reference it directly instead?). The second one is a "jumping-reference", which redirects to footnote 11 on the book, and this to the page cited in "Garcíap225". Both aren't proper references, then, must be changed with others. --Zerabat (talk) 12:36, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Hey! I didn't notice this until now. Anyway the Minoru Izawa source is written in Japanese, so that may be why I cited Garcia instead (as it was written in English). I could seek to get a copy of the original source. As a note the original sentence from the Garcia says: "However, one Japanese source estimates that roughly 80 percent of the Japanese were forcibly relocated to Mexico City with the largest coming from Baja California.11" WhisperToMe (talk) 01:32, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Use of a master's thesis as a source
Re: Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources, multiple users stated that (ordinarily) master's theses weren't If the master's thesis was inappropriate to use as a source on Wikipedia, wouldn't it be inappropriate to use it as a source in the book, which would make it not-reliable? But then the academic book reviews don't criticize such things (in the case of The Japanese in Latin America, I read the reviews and none say the sourcing is faulty), so I don't think it's in our place to say a master's thesis, that is cited by an academic book, that also supplements/expands what is already said in the academic book (which originates from the thesis), is then not a WP reliable source.
 * Published academic documents: Masterson's book The Japanese in Latin America cites Watanabe's thesis.
 * The content from Watanabe's thesis supports/supplements, rather than introduces undue weight to "new" aspects/opinions: this is because an analysis of the Masterson pages show that he's getting the factual information and quotes on conclusions from Watanabe. (I possess the relevant pages of the Watanabe thesis, given to me by somebody at California State University, Los Angeles)

In summary: because Masterson's book is a reliable source (supported by the published book reviews), and his book is using Watanabe as a source, then her thesis (so long as the information supports what he published) is reliable because Masterson says so and the reviews of his book don't challenge the factual accuracy or sourcing of the book - because the reviews say so, Wikipedians can't challenge his book's use of Watanabe, so therefore Watanabe must be an acceptable source for this article.

I am, however, happy to use Masterson (or rather information from Watanabe published in Masterson) more often than Watanabe directly. I do agree that Masterson should be used when possible. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:04, 19 August 2019 (UTC)