Talk:Japanese dry garden

What are the "Japanese traditions" mentioned in the article?
The article is very dismissive with Western attempts at trying to explain the actual meaning of the rock gardens, claiming that they are not supported by Japanese traditions. What exactly are these traditions? How do Japanese people understand this type of activity (rock gardening)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.228.207.100 (talk) 20:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Criticisms
The term "you are all gay". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.10.205.95 (talk • contribs) 11:07, 19 December 2005


 * The criticism section is as long as, if not longer than, the main body of the article itself. Furthermore it relies primarily on a single source. Therefore it should be shortened, ideally to 1/3 or at most 1/2 of the length it is at present. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 133.186.47.9 (talk • contribs) 08:22, 12 January 2006

Headline text
Fun and stressless you just need a good quiet room and let the zen garden do the rest!!!!
 * The criticisms section makes reference to two printed works as well as other Wikipedia articles. The web address listed provides additional commentary. It would seem that the section relies on more than just a single source for proofs. Moreover, it doesn't seem logical that a section's length should be dictated by it's topic (criticism vs. the main topic itself). Several editors have made helpful changes for conciseness and readability while still maintaining the points and sources of the criticisms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.224.201.132 (talk • contribs) 01:04, 3 February 2006


 * The criticism takes an overly literal and naive view of the use of the term Zen garden. The term may be modern, but it refers to the fact that karesansui gardens were developed by designers who were associated with the practice of Rinzai Zen. The critical remarks ignore this connection and may lead the reader into thinking that the connection between these gardens and Zen temples is a completely modern phenonmenon irrelevant to aspects of their design. This is an unbalanced and incorrect viewpoint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.47.183.33 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 17 February 2006


 * Perhaps the criticisms section could be removed altogether and instead have someone with knowledge about Rinzai Zen clarify the origin and role of the garden with the practice. It seems the criticisms simply seek to disprove the modern popular views about the garden and it's use in Buddhism / meditation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.213.89.10 (talk • contribs) 23:38, 1 March 2006


 * I removed the external link from the "criticism"-section, it is found and should be found under external links. It would be good to create a note in the text leading to the link, though, preferrably under "References" or similar. I have not dug so deeply into the art of references within wikipedia articles, however. // Habj 00:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

lowercase. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 08:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Move to Japanese rock garden?
In Japan, the garden in Ryoanji etc. vill not be referred to as zen gardens, but rock gardens. The term "zen garden" was, as far as I can see, invented in the west and apparenty used in gardening context, where this concept has gained some popularity - but is not this article about the actual Japanese gardens? If the page was moved to Japanese rock garden, then maybe the slightly troublesome "criticism"-sektion can be exchanged for a section that discusses the term zen garden in Western garden architecture etc. // Habj 13:12, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Zen Garden / Japanese Rock Garden → Karesansui – {Use of a traditional Japanese name will help clarify it's origin, use, and allow "Zen Garden" to be a subsection. TJW 21:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)} copied from the entry on the WP:RM page

Survey

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with  ~


 * Oppose - It should be Japanese rock garden (small r & g), since this is not a particular place but a type of place. Rock garden is also much more widely used than either Zen garden or Karesansui. ~ trialsanderrors 21:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't poll yet - discuss. It is too early to start polling - we have more than two alternatives to choose from, which makes stray polls difficult to interpret. The issue has not been discussed, hopefully discussion can boil it down to two alternatives - after that, we can poll if needed. // Habj 00:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I got the page on my watch list and am happy to reconsider my vote if new evidence emerges. I don't see much discussion going on though. ~ trialsanderrors 20:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Please discuss first, polls are typically overkill. As per Habj. Kim Bruning 00:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * In particular, please discuss what advantages using a non-English name will give; it is an imposition on the reader to assume he speaks Japanese, which should be justified. Septentrionalis 02:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments

Is the zen garden alternative skipped? I think it is a bad alternative, as I have explained above, but I suppose not everyone will agree on that. I will not expand more on that subject unless we have someone supporting it, though. In one way of course karesansui is the most correct word, it is what the Japanese say, but since this is English Wikipedia I'd say it is not much used in English language. I'd go for Japanese rock garden, i.e. the current caps should be removed. I would much prefer karesansui over zen garden though, since this alternative - like Japanese rock garden - would help us get rid of that troublesome "critisism"-section. //Habj 00:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

To present some summary points as discussion starters: Feel free to add rejoinders. ~ trialsanderrors 20:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Japanese rock garden (no capitalization please) is the most descriptive English title. It seems to be widely used and it is clear from the description what the entry is about. It doesn't win the Google test though.
 * Karesansui is the original Japanese term and as such least ambiguous. It doesn't seem to be widely used in English though.
 * Zen garden seems to win the Google test but it's not clear that the term unambiguously refers to karesansui-type rock gardens.

I apologize if it was inappropriate to start a poll. I'm not very familiar with the editing community at this wiki, so I went by Wikipedia's documentation / suggestions for discussing a possible move. My logic for suggesting it in the first place was that karesansui is very much a Japanese culture concept, much like manga (vs. "Japanese comic books") or kabuki (vs. "Japanese theater"), however it's certainly understandable to use the term most commonly used by english speakers. Perhaps someone should change the capitalization while this is being discussed. -帝武 → TJW 00:44, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Both words manga and kabuki are commonly used in English, there is a difference. I move the article to a non-caps-version for now.
 * I agree zen garden probably has a slightly different meaning, but above all I think it is used by another group of people. I think the japanophiles say rock garden (or in context Japanese rock garden), while the Western gardenophiles say "zen garden" referring to the gardens in Japan as well as gardens in the West inspired by them. The term is popular, but by many considered incorrect - while I hope "Japanese rock garden" works for all. // Habj 08:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops, couldn't move since the redirect page "japanese rock garden" points to "zen garden", not here. We'll have to wait a while until we've seen if there are more opinions coming in, I guess, and then get admin help. // Habj 08:28, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Added capmove tag and changed the redirect on Jrg to &rarr;JRG. ~ trialsanderrors 08:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

minor question
the lead says: "...and the rocks are often associated with and named after various Chinese mountains." (my emphasis) but as the zen garden is a japanese garden, isn't that wrong ????

Zen garden myth
There is an article here that argues that the idea that Japanese rock gardens are "Zen gardens" is a myth created in the West. When I took a Japanese history class in college, I learned about rock gardens, but not about Zen gardens. Since encyclopedias are supposed to be factual sources, perhaps this Wikipedia article should be more careful about distinguishing between true Japanese rock gardens and new age "Zen gardens". --JHP 23:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC) ..................... Without debating about the factual content of above article, I feel that the word Zen Garden is more appropriate than the term Japanese Rock Garden. The term Japanese Rock Garden connotes the concept of Art, Design etc. On the other hand, the term Zen Garden has an underlying tone of 'philosophy' behind it. Moreover, there is more than just the 'Rocks' in the Zen Garden. Actually the more appropriate term is 'ZEN Expression' Shrikant soman (talk) 06:42, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Emperor's New Clothes
What about the urban legend that rock gardens started out as an 'Emperor's new Clothes' type of prank? 81.156.193.66 21:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Definition of the karesansui garden
I think the current definition is a poor reflection of what the dry rock garden is al about. Looking at the photo of Shitennoji Honbo garden it also contradicts the definition, e.g. about the use of planting. Actually rocks, or better stone (!) can be represented/replaced by (topiary) shrubs, to represent mountainous scenery.

The use of terminology like ... an enclosed shallow sandpit... sounds very denigrating to me let alone to a Japanese reader. Actually Japanese rock garden should be Japanese dry rock garden (stone are used in all Japanese garden archetypes) if it refers to karesansui, as being dry, with only symbolic use of water and related landscape elements, is the essential key differentiator. Also not quite right to my perception is ....occasionally grass and/or other natural elements... The extreme found in Ryoanji is an exception under the dry rock gardens. Most karesansui gardens make extensive use of planting, in particular (topiary) shrubs to represent landscape elements. Rather than grass (which is an exception) moss is the primary ground cover.

Text like this, sorry I have to say, should be removed as it is just not true: ''Plants are much less important (and sometimes nonexistent) in many karesansui gardens. To maintain such gardens means that the plants, rocks, or other focal points are on occasion moved, turned or removed altogether.'' The influence of Zen on garden design was (probably) first described by Kuck in the early 20th century and disputed by Kuitert by the end of that century. What is not disputed is the fact that karesansui garden scenery was (and still is) inspired (or even based on) originally Chinese and later also Japanese, landscape paintings.

Though each garden is different in its composition, they mostly use rock groupings and shrubs to represent a classic scene of mountains, valleys and waterfalls taken from Chinese landscape painting. In the best of them the view also incorporates the hills behind as "borrowed scenery" (using a technique called Shakkei).

Today, ink monochrome painting still is the art form most closely associated with Zen Buddhism. A primary design principle was the creation of a landscape based on, or at least greatly influenced by, the three-dimensional monochrome ink (sumi) landscape painting, sumi-e or suibokuga. In Japan the garden has the same status as a work of art.

Bibliography

Kuck: Kuck, Loraine. The World of the Japanese Garden (From Chinese Origine to Modern Landscape Art), John Weatherhill, Inc. of New York and Tokyo (1968, 1984) ISBN 0-8348-0029-2.

Kuitert: Kuitert, Wybe. Scenes and Taste in the History of Japanese Garden Art. J.C.Gieben, Publisher, Amsterdam (1988) ISBN 0-5063-021-9.

'''I am not yet sure how to review and publish this. Help !''' --Petrus Patings (talk) 10:44, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Do you really think that the part about "table top rock gardens" should be part of the main article ?! I think it should have a place but not here.... --Petrus Patings (talk) 14:40, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Latest observation: The description of karesansui and (dry) rock gardens in the "Japanese Gardens" topic section seams more appropriate than the current description in the "Japanese rock garden" section. If you agree I will give it a go in composing a new mains section out of those, combined with the above suggestions and perhaps some additions. What say ??? --Petrus Patings (talk) 23:05, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Security System
I've read that raked sand/rock gardens where also used as a type of security system to aid in perimeter patrols. The obviousness of footsteps in these gardens was an alert that someone had infiltrated the temple or home and thus an alert would be issues. Of course I have no idea if this is a myth or not but I'd love to find a source somewhere that elaborates on the concept. Dogsgomoo (talk) 15:02, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

It does not sound plausible to me as houses are never (not that I know of) encircled by gravel area's. The gravel area, if a component of a karesansui garden, can mostly only be found in just one garden compartment. Often this is the compartment that is enclosed by a wall. The wall would not be the most obvious to be climbed to enter silently.
 * I have never come across anything like that. Not in a Zen-garden that is.

In Sakuteiki it is written that the gravel area is used for festivities.

What I do know regarding a type of security system is the "whispering veranda". I have been in temples where the planks of the walk boards that do encircle the houses, where mounted loosely so as to make a chirping sound when walked on. The sole purpose of this was indeed an early warning perimeter patrol system. Piet (talk) 14:11, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The official name is "nightingale floor". There is one in Daikaku-ji and one in Nijō Castle both in Kyoto. There even is a Wikipedia entry: Piet (talk) 19:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Zen Garden is not a Garden at all : It is a Zen EXPRESSION
I feel that the term GARDEN is ill suited for the true Zen Pholosophy. What we popularly call as Zen Garden are actually the EXPRESSION of Zen philosophy in rocks, sand etc in order to INTERNALISE the COSMIC experience with the aid of symbols. Shrikant soman (talk) 06:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Complaining about terminology on Wikipedia is the ultimate futile act. The article does a very good job of explaining that the 'garden' is an expression. It also makes it clear that the interpretation varies with philosophy and belief. It also makes it clear that the act of creation is a major part of this self-expression. I find it ironic that you are are choosing to argue over something designed to aid relaxation and meditation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.209.6.40 (talk) 09:37, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Music
Zen Garden is an ambient music group. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V92mFcYph-c Lightbearer (talk) 10:04, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Until such time as we have a page about them and need a disambiguation, I don't think we need to do anything here. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:18, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

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Miniature or toy versions
In the US, I've seen a good number of miniature dry gardens (complete with a rake the size of a dinner fork) used as a table decoration or desk toy. I think they're reasonably popular and should be discussed in this article. —Kodiologist (t) 15:34, 15 January 2024 (UTC)