Talk:Japanese raccoon dog/Archive 1

=Archive of what was Talk:Tanuki before the merge=

Poor quality article
This article contains both grammatical and factual errors, and I suspect it was written by an anime otaku. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.115.139.17 (talk • contribs).

Raccoon dog
Although I know little about Japanese folklore, I have corrected some of the more glaring errors in this article. I don't know why earlier versions claimed that the tanuki was not the Japanese raccoon dog, when they are in fact two different names for the same animal. Tanuki in art are shown as having large testicles because real tanuki have large testicles; the previously included metalworking explanation for this made no sense. I hope someone who knows more about tanuki will be able to make further corrections and additions to this article. CKarnstein 16:46, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Savoury?
Shouldn't we have something about the use of tanukis in the diet?

Katakana?
Shouldn't tanuki be written in Hiragana? It's a native Japanese word, not borrowed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.83.96.126 (talk • contribs).


 * It depends. Katakana isn't used only for loan words. It's also used like italics in English. It's worth noting that in the Japanese language version of the page, the pronunication is written in Katakana. I'm gonna change this page to reflect that, unless someone has specific objections. MikeDockery 06:37, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * In japanese texts, animal names are written in katakana, even though they're japanese animals. I always wondered why, thank you for the info. I like the way the page has the katakana and kanji for the animal. Very Helpful! ((subst:unsigned|128.248.86.72}} 18 May 2006


 * Just adding my linguistogeek (c) two cents: tanuki is often written in katakana to make it obvious to the reader that the folklore being is meant, not the actual animal (in which case, hiragana would be used). This is not an iron rule, but it applies most of the time, and also for kitsune and other similar animals/folk beasties. As for other animals, I can only think of neko (cat) right now - in the case of neko, katakana is considered more appropriate, since the kanji for the word isn't included in the standard 2000 kanji. On the other hand, inu (dog) is most commonly written with hiragana, because that kanji is in the notorious 2000. TomorrowTime 16:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I asked some Japanese teachers at my school about this recently, and they seemed to think that names of specific animals and plants in general tend to be written in katakana in Japanese. It's almost akin to the way we italicize genus and species names in English. What had confused me was a documentary on NHK about bears. The documentary repeatedly showed kuma in katakana. My friends showed me several examples of tree names, plant names, etc. being used. Where the kanji is used is when it's in the general-use set, and when it's part of a compound. So, kaijo-ken means service dog (thank you 10th-grade English textbook) and uses the kanji for dog. But inu (the name of the animal by itself) might not. — BrianSmithson 22:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Japanese Folklore Info Box
Is it just me, or are the colors on the Japanese Folklore Info Box really horrible? To me it looks like some 8-year-old playing around with HTML for the first time. Am I missing something?

Also, the formatting on the picture and stuff is a little screwy. Is my browser wacky? MikeDockery 06:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Put in the new infobox. Your eyeballs should be safe now.--み使い Mitsukai 16:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Photo / Headline Formatting
The infobox is way better. Props to Mitsukai! But the photo and headline is still screwy on my computer here at work (IE, Japanese XP). At home on my mac it was okay. I'll mess with it, but it might mess it up for other browsers. MikeDockery 23:49, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, I think I see the issue. Putting the drunken Tanuki photo "right" formatted forces it under the infobox, and the rest of the article is affected as a result. I'll work on it. Suggestions or edits would be appreciated. MikeDockery 23:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that I've got it looking decent on IE. I'll take a look on Safari when I get home. Might fool around with it a bit more. MikeDockery 00:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Tom Nook?
Would you think Tom Nook from Animal Crossing would be considered a Tanuki? He is a Racoon animal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.237.216.186 (talk • contribs).


 * Could be, since tanuki is often (mis)translated as racoon in English. Does anyone know if the Japanese edition of the game says what he is definitively? &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 02:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I would think so given a) his name b) his tail has no rings, like a tanuki and unlike a raccoon and c)a Japanese game would be more likely to use an animal familiar in that country. Kotengu 01:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * If any of you are still interested, in the original game his name is "Tanukichi" and he is confirmed to be a tanuki. Murasaki Seiko 06:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * You know what's strange though about Tom Nook. It may be a coincidence but raccoon backwards is nooccar. Nooc is similar to Nook which originated from Tanuki. --anonymous ( —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.59.203.129 (talk • contribs). )


 * Yeah, but he doesn't have You-Know-Whats the size of beach balls. --Red Pooka 19:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * They're hidden behind his apron :P

Tom Nook also has a leaf for his logo, and his conterpart is a fox :) --Kurtle (talk) 00:44, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Nice article, for the most part...
What's with the bad fan-art as a referance? This has nothing to do with tanuki in japanese culture. I don't really want to delete it off the site since I didn't post it, but it's really inappropriate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.248.86.72 (talk • contribs).
 * Information on real tanuki may be found at raccoon dog. — BrianSmithson 19:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Holding things
In the one hand, the traditional Tanuki holds a bottle of sake, right? What is he holding in the other hand? J.J. 00:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Linguistic aspects section messy and confusing
I'm having trouble understanding part of the Linguistic aspects section. Specifically:


 * The kanji for tanuki, 狸 (kyujitai: 貍), can be used interchangeably without change of meaning, while the former is currently more common.

What "former"? The only halfway-plausible thing I can think of is that it's saying that the simplified kanji is mostly interchangeable with the older form -- but the older form is only mentioned parenthetically, which seems to make that unlikely. Also:


 * Originally, the characters were used to refer to mid-sized mammals, mostly wild cats. Since wild cats live in only very limited regions of Japan (e.g. Iriomote, Okinawa), it is believed that the characters began to be used for "tanuki" instead starting around the Japanese feudal era.

Does this refer to the character using the "cat" radical as well as the character using the "dog" one? (I may be mistaken here in assuming that the radicals in Japanese are the same as in Chinese, and that they retain a semantic component.)


 * Historically, this has been a source of confusion and misleading translations between the two languages.

Which two languages? I think it's supposed to be Japanese and Chinese, but Chinese is not mentioned until the next paragraph. 24.159.255.29 02:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the "Linguistics aspects" section was confusing and sometimes nonsensical. I have done my best to clean it up, and have changed the heading to the simpler and less pretentious "Name". CKarnstein 05:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Stone statue form
Also, is turning into a stone statue part of the folklore? It seems to be a property of tanukis in a few modern versions, e.g. Mario. 24.159.255.29 03:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Blame the Tanuki?
I don't have much experience in the Japanese realm of mythology, but my parents lived in Japan for a while and befriended multiple families there. They brought back a small wooden Tanuki statue, and I was told that when things in the household go wrong, the home's Tanuki statue often takes the blame. So, to all you experts out there, is this true? Are Tanukis used as scapegoats? Sekhra 01:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I am no expert, but I have lived in Japan. I know also that the word "tanuki" in Japanese is also a slang for a mischievous or roguish person. Thus in the novel "Botchan", by Natsume Soseki, the character who in the English version is known as the "Badger", in the original Japanese was instead nicknamed "Tanuki".


 * I have also heard the same thing about the tanuki statues, although unable at this point to verify for sure. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.28.131.28 (talk • contribs).

Removed the Following
Fur controversy

The fur industry became interested in Tanuki when it was seen that its fur has such a high quality, and the docile, friendly animals are easy to raise in farm environments. The animal's gentle nature has made it appealing to people who wish to sell skins and furs.

Because of fur labeling laws in the United States, it is suspected that many Tanuki and Tanuki-trimmed garments may be deceptively labeled. Despite some outcry involving animal cruelty, Tanuki continue to be harvested in bleak settings on Chinese farms. The animals raised in cages are sometimes skinned alive, in order to increase efficiency (see video link below - WARNING: the video is extremely graphic).

Fredor 04:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * No references and looks like it was copied from a random website. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fredor (talk • contribs).


 * Even if it was legit, shouldn't that have gone in Raccoon dog anyway? Tsk. Kotengu 06:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Suggested merge with Raccoon Dog
I've suggested a merge with "Raccoon Dog". The articles deal with the same animal: one in fact, the other in fiction. Both articles are short. There is wikipedia precedent for having "in fiction" or "in literatute" sections associated with articles. DarwinPeacock 08:28, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * There's also precedent for splitting them. See Fox and Kitsune for one example. So, I oppose a merge, but would support a rename to Raccoon dogs in Japanese folklore. — BrianSmithson 07:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd leave them separated, I think. There's more that could be said about the tanuki, and it would lead to needing to split the article in the future.  Or having the biological information overwhelmed by the folkloric information.  In general, I think separate pages for creatures of folklore are good ideas.  (I also support using the native terms in cases where they're distinct to a culture, but that's a debate I don't need to get into again. ^_^) Shimeru 10:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Against. In Japanese, they're the same. In English, raccoon dog refers to the animal found in more than just the specific region of Japan, and tanuki only refers to the Japanese Mythological Animal. Kitsune doesn't belong as a section under Fox. Irashtar 20:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Against. IIRC they used to belong in a single article, but it was later split for reasons such as that given by Irashtar. —Tokek 02:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This makes sense to me. Should I just take off the suggested merge tag?  (I don't know what the process is). DarwinPeacock 00:23, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I just went ahead and removed the tags. Conclusion of the discussion was no merge. —Tokek 08:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Overlapping with Raccoon Dog article and serious cleanup needs
However, the introduction to the article states "but tanuki are in fact two subspecies of raccoon dogs (Nyctereutes procyonoides). These canid species native to Japan are N. p. viverrinus, the (ordinary) Japanese racoon dog and N. p. albus, the white variety found on Hokkaidō". It doesn't sound like the introduction to a mythical animal if you ask me. I agree that they should be separate articles, but as it stands right two the content of the articles overlap. Based on the introduction, to the reader it would appear that this "Tanuki" article is about the animal, not Japanese Folklore.

The article needs some serious cleanup. It states "While tanuki are prominent in Japanese folklore and proverbs, they were not always distinguished from other animals. ". That sentence starts off referring to the mythical creature, then ends with "other animals" - contradicting itself.

Given that the merge was denied, I'm sticking a cleanup needed on this article. It overlaps with the Raccoon Dog article in confusing ways and can't seem to make up it's mind whether or not it wants to be about the animal or the folklore.

I recommend using a structure similar to the Kitsune article or the other Japanese mythology articles. Unfortunately, I do not have sufficient knowledge of Tanuki folklore to perform the rewrite myself. 216.232.228.33 03:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Question about the Rainy Day Tanuki picture
On the all of the briefcases, I noticed a double ring. Is that the symbol of the marriage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamster2.0 (talk • contribs) 14:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Hachi from "InuYasha"
Hachi isn't introduced as a badger, but he's introduced as a raccoon dog. Can I change it? Tanner9461 (talk) 01:26, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Clean up "In popular culture"
I deleted the following entries;
 * There is no linked article in the entry.
 * There is no reference to a word "tanuki" in the linked article.
 * -- Phoenix7777 (talk) 22:52, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Super Mario Tanooki Suit
There seems to have been quite an edit-war of people adding the videogame Super Mario Bros. and the Miyazaki Anime Pom-Poko as pop-cultural references. Both these qualify far more for the term pop-culture than the Tom Robbins novel remaining in the article. I propose to either allow those references, or get rid of the section completely to avoid further edit-wars (and restore a bit of common sense). 217.94.255.153 (talk) 18:22, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * As for the anime "Ponpoko", it is already mentioned in the Folklore section. The duplicate should be avoided. As for Tanuki suit in Mario, it's just a gadget only in Super Mario Bros. 3. It's not even a minor character. It should be at least a protagonist of a novel/game/film/anime. The suit is a very minor trivia. No, I don't think it's acceptable. Oda Mari (talk) 10:35, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Trivia so "minor" that gamers nearly rioted with excitement when they heard the Tanuki suit was coming back in this year's Mario game. That tail was the stinkin' box art to both the games it's appeared in; it's significant. CaptHayfever (talk) 23:09, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The Tanooki Suit from Super Mario Bros. 3 should definitely be included in Popular Culture, it's more famous and influential than anything else currently written there. I demand a reason as to why it's being omitted, otherwise I'll simply keep adding it in. And Oda Mari, get over your own personal bias. ExecuteRobot --Don&#39;t mess with the ROBOT (talk) 10:38, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I remove it because there is no Tanuki suit article at en WP. It just an item in two games in the Mario series, not even a character. I'm glad as a native ja speaker that you enjoy Japanese games, but not everyone in the world plays the games and has no interest in them. Those who do not play the games may have heard of the Mario games, but not the suit. It is just an item. And why only Tanuki suit? what about other items? Are they mentioned in linked articles? As far as I checked, there were none. To think the suit is notable and important is your bias. Sorry, but it's only a trivia. Oda Mari (talk) 14:27, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, Super Mario Bros. 3 is such a well-known video game that it largely introduced tanukis to American pop culture through the Tanooki Suit. I know I and many others never would have even known about tanukis if not for SMB3. There's no reason it has to be a living "character" like you said since the in-game representation plays such a prominent role. Your argument is invalid, not "everyone in the world" cares about Beast Wars Neo or Villa Incognito either. Again, you're the only one with objection to this, and I think you need to swallow your pride. Either SMB3 is included or we abolish the entire category, however right now you're the only one who is being recalcitrant.--Don&#39;t mess with the ROBOT (talk) 23:48, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Japanese raccoon dog which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:02, 19 December 2019 (UTC)