Talk:Japanese sword/Archive 5

European Bias
I am neither European nor Japanese, so I am relatively objective. But, is it just me or is the article, particularly the last article EXTREMELY biased towards a European perspective. I realize none of you will agree because of well...who you people are, but just letting you know what the article sounds like. p.s. I don't know if this is a European or white thing, I doubt the latter, but words such as "extremely exaggerated" are not very objective. --Yellowfiver 00:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The article is currently undergoing revision. If you'd be kind enough to point out specific elements of bias, we could try to get them cleaned up. Thanks! - xiliquiern Talk  02:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

In what way biased? -- Unsigned comment by User:Rebavi

Is this particular section useful? Drive-by racist accusations directed at "white Europeans" without any substance ever provided. Can we just delete this? Mars11 23:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction
The article on the Jintachi says that it was invented in 1550 and was a predecessor to the katana.
 * Not possible. The katana (uchigatana, if you want to be specific) already saw widespread use during the early Muromachi, just some time after 1392. Secondly, I have never come across the term "jintachi" before, and all Google seems to be finding are suspicious wallhangers. CABAL 13:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Resolved, here and on jintachi. jintachi (no) koshirae seems to have been bastardized by anime and wallhanger-makers into jintachi, which does not match any real blade or koshirae over used.  I added text here about how the katana form came to be.  —  jesup 16:07, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Text Needing Removal
There is a line in this article that needs removing, but I can't see where to edit it out.

The text is:

"katanas can also be forged by using the flesh of goats with paper. the resaulting is the best katana EVER!"

And is located just above the Decoration section. However, when I go to edit the page, this text does not appear.


 * I don't see it. Somebody must have fixed the problem. If you still see it, please make sure you're looking at the most recent version of the article (click the Article tab above the article title), and let us know again. Thanks! Fg2 01:35, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You were looking at an oudated copy of the page. I checked the page history, and that was fixed a while back. See here. CABAL 06:01, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Removing the "Famous Historic katana users"
I see no reason or purpose whatsoever of a "Famous Historic katana users"-section. Sword-smiths yes, sword-users no. Its like having a "famous pistol-users" section on the pistol article: simply too many to name to make it even remotely interesting. It is a waste of space.Fred26 11:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. If any one user has such a heavy importance they can be mentioned elsewhere in the article or, if really pressing, a list can be created. - xiliquiern Talk  15:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed jesup 01:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks like there is vandal loose (or maybe two) that are trying to change Jesups vote to "opose" (not even spelled properly). Fred26 16:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Comparison... section.
The section is completely OR, not sourced(only provided link does not mention anything said in the section) and is incorrect in the history of Katana. The section compare the shorter version 打刀 with single handed or one and a half handed swords, where earlier Katanas like 太刀 are generally longer, weighted similar to two handed swords like Claymore and is designed to fight against Armoured opponents. 野太刀 and 大太刀 are even longer and heavier(up to 220cm in length) which is nowhere near the discription of Not effective against Armour. What I have said here is sourced from the Japanese and Chinese wiki, may not be the perfect source, but is still way better than the unsourced OR of the removed section. MythSearchertalk 05:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Review for potential delisting
I'm not sure when or why this article was promoted to GA class, but it appears to never have been through peer review, or ever underwent GA review. In my opinion, it fails to meet a number of GA criteria. Please visit WP:GA/R to support or oppose delisting. Bradford44 04:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It went Featured article review in February 2005 which it failed for a number of reasons. It was nominated for GA status 1st of August 2006 and promoted without comment two weeks later. In my opinion the FA request was very premature not only with respect to the problems but also due to the fact that the article was far from stable (read lots of contention). Several of the points in the original rejection were not addressed. I would delist and submit the article for peer review before renominating for GA-status.Peter Rehse 05:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Since there was no dissenting opinion and several supporting delisting - I've delisted this article as a Good Article.Peter Rehse 08:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

From the original nomination we have the following with the numbers refering to What is a good article? I'm recommending this article for delisting, for failure to meet the following GA criteria: This article is in need of quite a bit of polish, and needs many more citations before qualifying for GA status, in my opinion. Bradford44 04:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * arguably 1(a)
 * 1(c), specifically the WP:MOS-JP
 * 1(d)
 * very strongly 2(a)

katana vs nihonto
I wouldn't call nihonto from the 700's "Katana"; they were generally tachi (or ken or tanto). "Katana" is a term and a style of sword (and how one carries the sword) that originated around the 1400's. So I'll change 700 back to 1400. While this article verges on being about nihonto in general, the title is "Katana". — jesup 21:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The term from the 1400 starts out as uchigatana, and katana is actually an earlier word used in the 1200s to describe a fighting knife, what we now refer to as tanto. Dr. Sato actually describes it as a rather general term. Katana took over from uchigatana as tachi were phased out heading to 1500. Uchigatana is often confused with katate-uchi, which is the typical one-handed fighting sword of the period. Not sure how much of that is ok to migrate to the article. Mars11 22:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Err... Katana is a pretty general term. It is in fact the Japanese original word for curved blades before using the kanji pronounciation as to or chi(currently all 3 pronouciation carries the same kanji). MythSearchertalk 01:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

photographs
I own copyright on some high quality professional sword photographs, and would be willing to grant use here if someone gives me a heads up on how to do so. Mars11 22:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * All you need to do is register on Wikipedia Commons, hit "upload file" and choose an appropriate license from the list provided. A guide is given on Commons:Commons:First steps/Upload form. Chris Cunningham 10:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I would love to see more photos - I noticed one image had the granular patterning of the steel on the side I think was mentioned in the article. This is one article where the inclusion of many beautiful photos would be welcomed and appreciated and I dont think that any number would be too many.... Mattjs 05:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There are plenty of katana images over at the Commons that could be linked to from the article. They're found here specifically. CABAL 17:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for taking so long to get to this, but I finally have. Thank you for the help on the Wikipedia Commons, I've uploaded a photograph.



The sword in question is by Norishige, who was a co-pupil of Shintogo Kunimitsu and worked side by side with Masamune. He is mentioned in the Masamune article. The sword is done in Soshu style, with traits also common to Masamune and Go Yoshihiro. It was made around 1320 most likely, towards the end of Norishige's active work period. The high res version clearly illustrates the grain in the steel, it is itame, a particular kind called matsukawa hada that is typical of Norishige. The hamon shows very vivid activities in nie. The grooves on the sword are futasuji-hi. I chose this picture because the sword obtained the highest distinction from the Nihonto Bijutsu Hozon Token Kai (Tokubetsu Juyo Token, one of about 800 or so to achieve this rating out of the several million swords that exist), the smith is of the highest rank, it is very similar to work of Masamune, and the activities are so brilliant they are easily visible in the photograph so it becomes a good reference picture. It was originally made as a tachi, and is shortened for use as a katana. It has been shortened at least twice in its life, possibly more times if the bottom mekugiana is not the original. The photograph is done in Japanese reference style, illustrating the monouchi and kissaki up close, as well as the nakago, and then an image showing the sugata. That is the information on the sword. I don't want to be the person to decide what is valid and what is not valid in terms of the scope of the article or if the photograph should be used, as I'm the author. It's a good photo though so I hope someone adds it. Mars11 02:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Unnecessary Links
Some of these links really don't need to be here, namely the Zanpakutō link. This is an article about a real Japanese weapon and the Japanese culture, NOT about anime shows and the weapons the animators imagine. Darkskul 22:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Feel free to be ruthless. This article has a history of anime incursion. Chris Cunningham 11:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I deleted it a while back forget to mention it. Dont even ask about stuff like that just delete it in the future. April 16 2007

Tachi as primary weapon?
Under Use there is the following paragraph:
 * The tachi became the primary weapon on the battlefield during the Kamakura period, used by cavalry mounted samurai. The sword was mostly considered as a secondary weapon until then, used in the battlefield only after the bow and spear were no longer feasible. During the Edo period samurai went about on foot unarmored, and with much less combat being fought on horseback in open battlefields the need for an effective close quarter weapon resulted in samurai being armed with daisho.

This is not only unsourced, but also fails to explain why the spear wouldn't be the primary battlefield weapon during the Kamakura period, and it also seems to suggest that the spear was out of vogue ever since. Which of course was not the case. My suggestions would be something in order of
 * listing source
 * more information as to why a cheaper and easier to use and learn weapon would not be preferred on the battlefield
 * specifying that the spear/pike was, in fact, the preferred weapon on the battlefield whether peasant or warrior (except if there is actual evidence to suggest otherwise for certain eras)

Am I being unreasonable?Tsuka 10:38, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think you are being unreasonable. The quoted statement seems a bit off or maybe he/she expressed it too vagely. Everything I've read says that it was the spear that became the primary weapon during these times and also during most of the Sengoku Jidai-era, and that the spear was preferred in battle with the sword being the fall-back weapon. Fred26 20:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge Nihonto into Katana
The Japanese article this article linked to is Nihonto instead of Katana, yet there is another nihonto article, which serves almost no purpose. Also, this article basically deals with all sorts of nihonto instead of katana, and the kanji 刀 in fact is pronouced as either to, chi or katana and are basically the same thing. I suggest merging the nihonto article with this one, and edit the article to reflect the actual nihonto meaning. (which means a total revamp on both articles). MythSearchertalk 09:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, I'm going to add the merge tag, and change the heading of this section.


 * I also agree, while katana is a very familiar word now in the western world, they do not stand out from overall nihonto so much when considering them. For instance, the history can't be explained without talking about tachi. So once you start getting into the details you end up talking about Nihonto (lit. "the Japanese Sword"). So the use of katana in the west is kind of close to calling a 4 wheel drive, off-road capable vehicle a Jeep. When you want to really explain a Jeep in depth you get involved in explaining 4 wheel drive off-road capable vehicles, which is proper so that someone who doesn't know is then freed from the generic term and understands where everything fits together. So I am for merging it, maybe katana should redirect to the katana section in Nihonto. Overall the article needs cleanup as there is some redundancy (tachi being worn edge down is explained in three sections for instance, and I think I just added one). So some thought to the structure needs to be given, so that maybe each type of Nihonto has its own section: Naginata/Nagamaki, tanto, wakizashi, tachi, chokuto, katana. When I get a chance I will add some sources for some of the historical information, much of my contributions come from the Nihonto Koza and the Nihon Token Jiten. Just short on time for looking up the specific points. Mars11 05:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. After all, the article is a stub about a sword that is unrecognized to several people, so the article should be merged. Lesser Shadow 20:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree that article serves no purpose and is confusing Rebavi 20:32, 2 october 2007 (UTC)


 * Merged MythSearchertalk 03:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

History Mishmash
I just went through the history section and fixed several things which became undone at some point. For instance, the article was stating that civil war broke out in the 12th century, causing the Kamakura period developments to be thrown away. I think I may have written the original a long time back, I forget... but it is the 15th century Sengoku Jidai that caused this to happen (and it's a bit of a simplification as things had been in slight decline). Anyway, 12th century predates the Kamakura period as well, so it's not possible for civil war in the 12th century to throw away developments of the 13th and 14th centuries. This is the typical kind of error that has been introduced. Overall the Early History section is reading very rough (there are a series of disjointed references to the 15th century for instance that follow each other) and I think it needs to be rewritten, just to adopt better style.

"Katana" as name of manner in which sword was worn?
I couldn't find in the article (I may not have read it well enough) reference to the phrase "Katana" being used as a way of describing how the sword was worn, as opposed to a name for the sword itself. It was mentioned earlier on this page (discussion) however. Am I incorrect in believing this information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.31.33.21 (talk)


 * Some of the confusion is because in the western world a sword is integrated with its pommel, and the scabbard is considered something separate and not very important. The sword's style of make indicates the use. So you can look at it, and say this is a rapier or this is a falchion and you use it by doing such and such. Scabbard is just to carry the sword to the battlefield with.


 * With the Japanese sword, the blade is by itself not a useful object, it needs to be integrated with its mounts (koshirae). So with an unsigned sword just sitting there, it is not possible offhand to know with certainty whether you are looking at a tachi or a koshirae as it is just a blade, it is not a complete weapon. Like an axehead with no handle, it's not complete. The koshirae then are a group of all the sword dress, with pommel, grip, guard, and scabbard as an integrated set of matching items. Add them to the blade, and now you have the fully functional tool, a "sword." Once you do that you can specify what exactly you have.


 * A sword made as a tachi is intended to be worn edge down in tachi koshirae. There are indeed construction hints that show that the smith was intending the sword to be mounted like this... If you flip it upside down and wear it in katana koshirae, it is now a katana. Most tachi have been modified to fit katana mounts and were mounted as katana... making them katana. When mounted. When unmounted, usually if there are no hints that show it was constructed with intention to be a tachi, then we'll call it a katana. This is kind of an overloading of the terms, it is most fair to use these to describe the set of blade + koshirae: katana or tachi. Even if it is a Naginata that has been modified, it is fair to call it a katana. So primarily the difference is in how the sword is being used... and without the information about how it is being used, we look to the intended use. Failing information about the intended use, it's just called a katana. I'll have to dig up the references, probably in Kokan Nagayama's book and others.


 * In the meantime, here's a link to a Japanese sword dealer's page (Sumie Kawashima) who explains the difference. Tachi and Katana. Mars11 01:28, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll also add that the katana fighting techniques sometimes include the koshirae. This is possible because the koshirae can be easily removed from the belt and would sometimes be discarded during combat. Sometimes the sword would be wielded in saya still if the samurai wanted to be non-deadly, or the saya could be wielded in the off hand to use to parry or as a club (which would necessitate one-handed katana fighting). I'm just noting it because the difference between katana and tachi in terms of "how it is worn" is actually a functional difference rather than an ornamental difference, in many ways (primarily in the faster draw of the katana). Mars11 01:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

yes, i saw that as well and thought that was strange...

Clarify Length Numbers

 * Could we clarify the lengths of the swords quoted? Does blade length mean from guard to point or the overall length of the weapon, from pommel to point? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vectorb (talk • contribs) 20:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Women and Katanas
I was always led to believe that it was illegal in pre-industrial Japan for women to own or wield katanas, but I have found nothing about this in this article. I'd say that's a pretty important fact about the katana's history, especially since women and katanas have now become so synonymous in recent popular culture (Azumi, Kill Bill, Sky High etc.) And there would also have been a date when women owning katanas in Japan was legalised, which would also be an important historical fact. I'm sure there are other users here who have better knowledge and resources to research and include this in the article than I do, so I would humbly ask you to look into it please? Arigato! 79.75.100.187 23:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, sources about this is quite hard to find, yet I think I can answer you with my own knowledge. It is not illegal for women to own or wield a katana, but pretty much not legal for civilians other than samurais to wield one in puplic.  Yet owning one and taking it around in a special made carry pouch(pretty much just two strip and a piece of cloth) is legal.  And it is not because the law prohibit it totally for civilians to wield katanas, it is because you are in trouble if a samurai sees you with one and askes you to duel and you probably cannot refuse since you are of lower social status and you cannot kill him, also because of your social status, so you are pretty much screwed no matter what you do. MythSearchertalk 03:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I thought that historically women of all classes (even Samurai wives) were prohibited from wielding katanas because it was a "man's weapon", which is why women trained with naginata glaives and never with bokkens, shinai or katanas. You'll see this reflected in some of the more traditional Samurai films from the 50s-70s, in which the female warriors never carry katana swords (including Lady Snowblood, Oyuki, Sayaka Yagyu and Kaori Yagyu from the Babycart series). They carry thinner, shorter, lighter swords with no tsuba, which would have been a more feminine and acceptable sword for women to use at the time. You are right about sources being very hard to find though 79.75.20.247 15:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * In fact, women with longer pole weapons like the Naginata is pretty common. MythSearchertalk 03:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

in fact i beleive you are all incorrect. women were considered samurai just as much as men and needed to know how to commit seppuku and defend themselves from capture just as well. also the introduction of the naginata as a "womens weapon" is a gendai budo development. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebavi (talk • contribs) 17:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Sincerely Ghost a.k.a Ninja
''As a final note, it should be noted that some companies and independent smiths outside of Japan produce katana as well, with varying levels of quality. Also all katana swords have a groove in them known as a blood line. The point of these blood line'swas when someone was stabbed with a katana they usually tended to squirt blood and possibly blind the samurai. The blood line gave the blood an outlet it would run down the sword almost to the hilt and the drip or flow to the gound Sincerely Ghost a.k.a Ninja''

Needs revision and cleanup. --124.170.182.150 08:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)