Talk:Japanese tea ceremony/Archive 1

Zen-Chan Buddhism
Merged the Zen and Chan information. Zen is the Japanese pronunciation for the Chinese character known as "Chan" in Mandrian Chinese.

Intranetusa 00:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

temp
Altered version (see discussion below) moved to Japanese tea ceremony/temp until the two can be blended. Exploding Boy 18:59, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

I have problems with the last block of edits by an anonymous user, but don't have time to deal with them right now. Most particularly, I'm bothered that the user has made these changes as apparent "corrections." In fact, the changes reflect an Urasenke approach -- it's not the only way. Please leave comments below; I'll respond when I have more time. Exploding Boy 01:00, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * Maybe we could refactor anononymous' changes in a Urasenke-specific section, or develop it into a discussion about the differences between styles.
 * I'm intrigued by his insistence on "usucha" rather than "usuicha". I believe my Urasenke group used the former.  Is it an older form of "usui"? Leonardo Boiko 19:03, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's a good idea. If you'd like to do some work on it, go ahead. Actually, the article could definitely use a general section bolstered by Ura- and Omote- specific sections.

As to usu vs usui, I've heard both used. It may be like sado vs chado, it could be like sumimasen vs suimasen, it could be that one is wrong and one is right, but either way they're both used. Exploding Boy 21:35, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)


 * After writing all my comments I realize they became very long. Please forgive my faulty english as it is not my native language. Just to let you know from where I comment: I'm studdying Urasenke tea, but have some experience with Omotesenke from a school club in Sapporor. I'm currently studying at Urasenkes main tea school in kyoto.


 * So this is the changes I would like to propose.


 * Comments on Usuicha vs Usucha:


 * According to "English for use in the way of tea" thin tea (used in tea ceremony) is writen with the kanji for thin and tea &#34180;&#33590;. And they write it in romanji as usucha. According to "The Kodensha Kanji Learner's Dictionary" the kanji for thin&#12288;(&#34180;) is read Haku or usu. If you want to use it as a adjectiv you would add a hiragana i and get the adjective usui&#12288;(&#34180;&#12356;) = thin. If on the otherhand it is a compound of a word it is read usu or haku. So if I got this right usuicha&#12288;(&#34180;&#12356;&#33590;) is realy adjectiv + noun = thin tea that could be used to describe any kind of thin tea, while usucha (&#34180;&#33590;)is a noun that refferes to only this specific kind of tea. Personally I haven't seen usuicha used so many places, for instance the tea producer and shop ippodo transcribe it as usucha on their web shop/page: https://shop.ippodo-tea.co.jp/ShowCase.dll/Item?item=1504


 * Comments on sadou vs chadou:

In 1964 Urasenke decided that they would stop reading it sado, because of the unwanted conection to another form of sado, namely the abrivation of sadomasochism. So to avoid this when they wanted to teach english speaking people about the way of tea they decided to read it chado instead. Cha beeing another way to read the tea kanji.


 * Commments on "An Omotesenke-style ceremony":
 * From: An Omotesenke-style ceremony


 * To:
 * A tea gathering


 * Reasoning:
 * I would like to make the main page school neutral, and if school specefic information is needed we should make a seperate page for each of the schools in adition to this main page.


 * From:
 * Each utensil - including the tea bowl (chawan), whisk (chasen), and tea scoop (chashaku) - is then ritually cleaned in the presence of the guests in a precise order and using prescribed motions.


 * To:
 * Each utensil - including the tea container (natsume/chaire), tea scoop (chashaku), whisk (chasen) and tea bowl (chawan)- is then ritually cleaned in the presence of the guests in a precise order and using prescribed motions.


 * Reasoning:

tea container should be included in this list. Why not put them in the order they are purified as this happens to be the same for all senke schools. (Speaking of senke schools Mushanokoji-senke should be mentioned)


 * From:
 * The guest rotates the bowl to avoid drinking from its front, takes a sip, murmurs the prescribed phrase, and then takes two or three more sips before wiping the rim, rotating the bowl to its original position, and passing it to the next guest with a bow.


 * To:
 * The guest rotates the bowl to avoid drinking from its front, takes a sip. The host will at this point ask if the tea was to the guests liking. After answering the guest of honour takes two and a half more sips before wiping the rim, rotating the bowl to its original position, and passing it to the next guest with a bow.


 * Reasoning:

prescribed phrase sounds as if the guest are just saying some thing with no real meaning, when in fact this exhange is a important sign of hospitality from the host and appriciation from the guest.


 * From:

The guest of honour will request that the host allow the guests to examine the utensils, and each guest in turn examines and admires each item, including the water scoop, the tea caddy, the tea scoop, the tea whisk, and, most importantly, the tea bowl.


 * To:
 * The guest of honour will request that the host allow the guests to examine the utensils, and each guest in turn examines and admires some of the utensils. Usually at least the tea caddy and the tea scoop is passed around, but other items may also be passed round.


 * Reasoning:
 * The tea bowl will most ofthen have been admired just after drinking the tea. (Believe this to be true for Omotesenke to). I have never heard about looking at the water scoop and the wisk, not saying it is not true, but by not speceficly including them we can make this part of the article valid for both Urasenke and Omotesenke.


 * Comments on Kaiseki Ryori:


 * From:
 * Kaiseki for tea ceremony is sometimes referred to as chakaiseki (&#33590;&#25040;&#30707;, cha: "tea") meaning "tea kaiseki."


 * To:
 * Kaiseki for tea ceremony is sometimes referred to as chakaiseki (&#33590;&#25040;&#30707;, cha: "tea") meaning "tea kaiseki" in contrast to ryoriya kaiseki (kaiseki mealp prepeared in resutants). Chakaiseki is centered around eating rice while &#26009;&#29702;&#23627;&#12288;ryoriya kaiseki is centered around drinking sake.


 * From:
 * For tea ceremony men usually wear a combination of kimono and hakama (a long divided or undivided skirt worn over the kimono), but some men wear only kimono. Wearing hakama is not essential for men, but it makes the outfit more formal.


 * To:
 * For tea ceremony men usually wear a combination of kimono and hakama. The host side are suppose to have hakama even in informal situation. Eventhoug hakama makes the outfit more formal. When obtaining a teachers license and a tea name men will be able to substitute the hakama for a jitokku (a half transperant black haori (jacket)).


 * Reasoning:
 * There is a hole page dedicated to explaining about hakama, no need to repeate it in . I'm not sure about the spelling for the see through jackets name. Also a not quite sure if this used only by Urasenke or if all the senke schools use it. (I will find out and update)


 * From:
 * Lined kimono are worn by both men and women in the winter months, and unlined ones in the summer. For formal occasions men wear montsuki kimono (plain, single colour kimono with three to five family crests on the sleeves and back), often with striped hakama.


 * To:
 * Lined kimono are worn by both men and women in the winter months (octber to may), and unlined ones in the autumn and spring (may to june and september), during the summer (mid jun to mid september) usumono (see-through kimono) are used. For formal occasions men wear montsuki kimono (plain, single colour kimono with one, three or five family crests on the sleeves and back), often with striped hakama as they are more formal than singel colored.


 * From:
 * While men's kimono tend to be plain and largely unpatterned, some women's kimono have patterns on only one side; the wearer must determine which side will be facing the guests and dress accordingly.


 * To:
 * While men's kimono tend to be plain and largely unpatterned, women's kimono may have patterns or be plainly one color. The one colored are more formal than the ones with patterns. Kimono with patterns are usually divided in to those with large patterns and those with small repeating ones. Some even have pattern on only one side; the wearer must determine which side will be facing the guests and dress accordingly.


 * From:
 * Seiza is integral to the Japanese tea ceremony. To sit in seiza (&#27491;&#24231;, literally "correct sitting") position, one first kneels on the knees, and then sits back with the buttocks resting on the heels, the back straight and the hands folded in the lap. The tops of the feet lie flat on the floor.


 * To:
 * Seiza is integral to the Japanese tea ceremony.


 * Reasoning:
 * The deleted information is available at the Seiza page.


 * User: AI237


 * RE: usu vs usui: I'm fine with changing to usu.


 * Re: sado vs chado: Urasenke prefers chado while Omotesenke prefers sado. We should mention both in the article.


 * I agree with making the main page encompass all schools. We should mention as many significant schools as we can think of in the article, and, if necessary, create separate articles for them.


 * Re: the part on cleaning the utensils, I'm fine with your changes.


 * Re: proposed changes to "The guest rotates the bowl to avoid drinking from its front" (etc). We should be clear on what type of ceremony we're describing.  In some schools the host does not say ikakadeshoka in certain ceremonies (eg: usu), but does in others (eg: koi).


 * Re: proposed changes to "The guest of honour will request that the host allow the guests to examine the utensils" (etc). In some schools the tea bowl is not routinely examined by the guests in every ceremony.  I believe that it's most common in koicha to look at the chaire, chashaku, and shifuku.


 * Re: Kaiseki, I'm fine with your changes.


 * RE: hakama. Although there's an article on hakama, we should have enough information in this article to make it clear.  If we repeat a few things it's not a big deal.


 * Re: kimono. I'm fine with your changes.


 * Re: seiza. I don't agree with your changes.  I think we should keep it as it is.


 * Exploding Boy 16:44, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

Furo and ro
How about adding a paragraph about furo (brazier) and ro (sunken hearth) seasons? I'm not sure about how these are dealt with outside Urasenke. I got usable, though not very good, ro and furo pictures, if you think they'd add to the article (all my photos are public domain).


 * Nice photos. I think a fu/ro section would be great.  Exploding Boy July 9, 2005 03:54 (UTC)

I have begun a section about ro and furo.Tksb (talk) 05:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Delete temp page
I have nominated the temp page for deletion. It looks like that project has been completed. Thatcher131 16:30, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * link, please? Exploding Boy 21:10, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Toward Featured Status
In response to User:Exploding Boy's comments and request at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan:

Has the article been through peer review? It can be helpful in getting suggestions from outside the community of people who write on Japan-related subjects. Things that are clear to us might be unclear to general readers.

For citations and references, can you find Theodore M. Ludwig, "The Way of Tea: A Religio-Aesthetic Mode of Life," History of Religions (1974) 28-50? I have not read it but it sounds relevant.

You've already referenced a Web sites of one of the schools. There are also the print books in the Further Reading section.

Mary Elizabeth Berry's Hideyoshi has some coverage of his great tea gatherings in Kitano. Hideyoshi's gold tea room at Fushimi Castle was not wabi-sabi; the article could use mention of tea practices outside the wabi-sabi tradition.

General and cultural histories can provide more information. Try the Barbara Ruch article in The Cambridge History of Japan volume 3. Again, I haven't read it, but it could be worthwhile.

Fg2 07:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I know next to nothing about 茶の湯 so I'm reluctant to edit this article in any way: but (i) I thought the practitioners (or those among them who worry about English) aren't fond of the English term "tea ceremony"; (ii) the article seems longwinded, dwelling on trivia: "Students must provide their own fukusa, fan, paper, and kobukusa, as well as their own wallet in which to place these items. Students must also provide their own kimono and related accessories.  In some cases, advanced students may be given permission to wear the school's mark in place of the usual family crests on formal montsuki kimono." etc. etc. (but perhaps this is a necessary result of the way in which the whole affair dwells on what is trivial to me but of course isn't to the participants); (iii) use of capitalization and italics in Japanese terms unassimilated to English doesn't seem standardized; (iv) a lot of sourcing is needed; (v) the link at the foot to "The Sushi FAQ - (the alt.food.sushi Usenet group FAQ) at SushiFAQ.com" seems bizarre: the title of the link doesn't suggest that there will be anything about tea, and indeed the page is a combination of a list of links to more info on sushi, dreary ads from Google, and your blog-standard (prolix) blog about (can you guess?) sushi. Well, good luck with the article! -- Hoary 05:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Sado or Chado?
My father and grandmother (both fluent speakers) have told me that Sado is the correct spelling and not chado. The context 茶道 should spell out sado because the character 茶 says cha in all contexts except 茶道, in which the prefix sa- is used (thus sado). The kanji cha- changes into sa- because the Japanese respect the Chinese in invention of the word cha- (茶) but preserve the Japanese culture by using the prefix sa- in place of cha-. It should be mentioned in the article that the word "sado" is the traditional way of saying "tea ceremony" or "way of the tea", and "chado" is the word used outside of Japan and used for people who have little literary knowledge of the Japanese language. Sr13 05:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I retract...see http://homepage1.nifty.com/tadahiko/GIMON/QA/QA026.HTML. Sr13 06:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

...As already explained in the article. Exploding Boy 06:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Use of ceremony, significance
Ok, I know next to nothing of tea ceremony. When would someone have a tea ceremony? How commonly is it performed? What is the general Japanese viewpoint toward the ceremony? Is it "useful" in some other sense than interacting with other tea ceremony enthusiasts? What does it mean to say, "I study tea ceremony?" Pawsplay 06:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The new image
The one with the "unusually large bowl." What's the deal with it? That bowl is so large as to be ridiculous. It's not representative of a typical tea bowl, and I don't think the photo should be used in the article. Exploding Boy (talk) 15:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The image is from an authontic tea ceremony, and the large bowl is used in certain ceremonies for a reason -which I don't know-. Hakeem.gadi (talk) 15:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Not only is the tea bowl ridiculously large, but the young lady obviously does not know her tea manners, with her various items scattered about. This image presents a very bad example of the Japanese tea ceremony. I vote for removing it.Tksb (talk) 08:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Exploding Boy (talk) 15:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

06:42, 20 September 2008 Tksb (Talk | contribs) (42,926 bytes) Took the liberty of deleting the highly non-exemplary and misleading photo.

History
where does the Lafcardio Hearn quote come from?? the given ref. does not come up with any such quote.Tksb (talk) 12:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I assume the original site is now offline. Exploding Boy (talk) 15:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If the original site is now offline and there is no way to verify the quotation other than the no longer valid site, it seems that the ref. should be removed.Tksb (talk) 08:53, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

03:43, 4 October 2008 Tksb (Talk | contribs) (41,837 bytes) (→History: unverifiable quote. Deleted). Took the liberty of deleting, as the link is no longer valid and the quote not verifiable.

Kaiseki
Concerning the photo, what course in the cha-kaiseki meal could that be?? It appear to be more of a creative tenshin tray.Tksb (talk) 12:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it's hassun/八寸. Oda Mari (talk) 14:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That's quite an unusual tray it's on. I've never seen a silver one.  Exploding Boy (talk) 15:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Hassun is a tray of tidbits "from mountain and sea" (traditionally just the two varieties of tidbits), passed down the line of guests for them to take a "balanced" (same sort of portion available for each guest) serving of as the host comes to pour sake. The image certainly does not fit this description. It seems wise to eliminate this hardly typical image if it is going to be described as a typical course in a cha-kaiseki meal.Tksb (talk) 03:44, 11 October 2008 (UTC)